Interesting. So does that make us all robots then?
My experience is that I'm making choices. If I'm not making those choices, who or what is? Who or what has programmed me?
Well there are 2 bits to freedom of choice.
One is whether there is a 'you' to make a choice.
The other is whether everything you do is an actual choice based on nothing that has happened before it.
For instance will you reply to this post or not? If I hadn't made this post then you wouldn't have the choice to make. But because I have made this post, you now have a sense of a choice. but that choice will be determined by many other factors.
Yes Mia very under used once she came to the fore. Part of the trouble was that by the time she appeared she had joined up with the rest of the bots and because secondary to them.
And Anita was a mystery and different to the humans surrounding her; Mia was a known quantity and basically like every other young modern woman in jeans.
I was interested that Laura gave Mia money as I thought the whole point of the synths is that they aren't trapped by needing to earn money like humans - they don't need homes/food.
They need electricity; who's going to pay for that? As for homes, sophisticated pieces of machinery don't do well spending all their time outdoors. Basically, they're going to need things from others which will mean they'll either have to steal (with the obvious dangers/consequences) or barter for them; money is just a sophisticated form of bartering.
It was devious and implies she's up to no good. Plus the OTT smirk at the end was a not-so-subtle clue that she's a bit of a bad un.
Bit devious yes, but "up to no good" I'm not convinced on. Niska has wanted to make more concious synths since she found out they possibly could, and her reasons are pretty sound. So really whether it's no good comes down to your opinion of should synths be concious or not. All she can do with the code is make ordinary synths into concious synths.
I tell you, it says much when Mia is a whole lot less interesting than Anita was!
I don't know, I think Mia was bound to be less interesting than Anita. Anita was interesting because she had Mia inside her fighting to get out, so her behaviour was unpredictable and she was a mystery. Mia is just a straightforward character, and a very motherly character at that.
Yes, I too was really hoping Mattie would get with Leo after that annoying other guy she had a thing with. Also really wanted to see Leo kick Hobb's ass when he offered him soup, so a bit disappointed about that.
I was interested that Laura gave Mia money as I thought the whole point of the synths is that they aren't trapped by needing to earn money like humans - they don't need homes/food.
They might not need food (although Leo does), but they do need stuff. They have to be able to charge every day, they need clothes, and if they don't want to end up looking homeless (which presumably would be very strange for a synth and would stand out to people) they need to be able to wash those clothes. They are also, as we saw in the first episode, at risk from rouge modders as well as Hobb/the government so while they don't have to have a home being able to stay places would definitely be helpful. Not to mention maybe needing phones to call each other or being able to take the bus/train.
I don't disagree with you. I got confused by some of the tech stuff in the last section but overall I liked it. I'm having trouble following the thread because I've got more 'ignores' than I've ever needed before - but I'll pick it up tomorrow when hopfully the 'it was all so much better in Swedish' will have died down.
Oh good, the negativity was starting to get me down (not that I begrudge anyone their opinion, but it's a bit disheartening to read that so many people really dislike something you enjoyed). I posted a link to the thread that was made for discussing the show in relation to the Swedish version so hopefully that will make it easier to find for the people who want to talk about both.
I don't know, I think Mia was bound to be less interesting than Anita. Anita was interesting because she had Mia inside her fighting to get out, so her behaviour was unpredictable and she was a mystery. Mia is just a straightforward character, and a very motherly character at that.
The writers needed to work at it. Anita was the central hook of the show; she was a mystery, potential danger and interesting. Then she became boring!
They still haven't proved the new synths are conscious.
They are just using behaviorism to say they are conscious because they act more human than other synths.
Also they are only acting more human because they have had real human memories implanted in them.
The Chinese room argument rules out procedural coding as the basis for sentience.
The Matrix like coding with the tree appearing in the coding is just visual stuff for us viewers.
I thought that as it was explained in the show they are 'conscious' because they can feel things and can think for themselves. They do not have to follow orders and they can hurt other people and lie if they wish to. I'm interested as to how you would define consciousness and how you would expect them to prove it?
No idea where you got that they have had real human memories implanted in them? That was never shown.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the "Chinese room argument" but even if it rules out coding as a basis for sentience in reality, this is science fiction; it doesn't have to follow our rules.
The writers needed to work at it. Anita was the central hook of the show; she was a mystery, potential danger and interesting. Then she became boring!
Yes, but I really think she was those things because of Mia being trapped inside her. Mia was never going to be as interesting as Anita, how could she be? ^_^
Such promise shown in the first few episodes and this is how it ended. Utter rubbish ending. Seems like the writer walked out of the programme half way.
Anita was the main interest. Bringing the others in ruined it. Leo was rubbish. There were too many synths to care for them as a viewer. They should have kept Anita as the main synth.
Laura was useless as an actor and character. Her Tom brother killed guilt story was laughable. No one cared.
The family in the end was too plain. Just ordinary.
How they ruined a good story. This will go down in the books on how not to End a series 1.
I did get that sort of feeling in the final episode.
Anita/Mia was almost the main protagonist throughout the series, but in the last episode it was almost as if she was an extra.
Niska too. Very prominent character who was building up over the series, but she too fizzled out in this episode and like Mia hardly had much to do.
For some reason in the final episode they seemed to feel that Fred was more important, and the detective synth. Both characters who only really started to feature in the last couple of episodes.
Plus I felt it was lacking the William Hurt character and his faulty synth. Their story in the series doesn't seem to have had much point in the grand scheme of things. That was a story thread which just stopped dead and only appeared to serve to give Niska a place to hide out for an episode or two.
The Neil Maskell character too. It seems like his only real purpose in this series was to give the two kids a lift in the final episode.:D
Still enjoyable, but I felt that there was no payoff. The story writers seemed to think that their family story of the couple getting back together was enough. It probably was enough for most people who like to watch television for comfort and familiarity, but not for me it wasn't.
I think so much more could have and should have been done with the set-up they had here. Some characters seem to have been wasted.
re Niska; I'm not convinced she's evil, but I am convinced that she'll create evil. She obviously has a copy of the code, and we know her intentions with it. I'm going to throw a prediction out here that she's going to play Frankenstein - she'll give consciousness to another synth and in turn, create some sort of monster which she and the others will need to stop. Said synth will likely do something bad (maybe kill one of the family) and then she'll learn that her intentions need some forethought before they're implemented.
When the young daughter was pretending to be Anita and said: "I'm sorry Mathilda, I don't understand the question", I thought for a moment that perhaps something had happened to her when Anita took her out that night. We still don't know why she did that.
Overall, I enjoyed the final episode but really wasn't interested in Laura's and Joe's relationship and the story about Tom. I hope they don't feature too much in series 2. I think it will be interesting now Leo and co. have split up. There's the opportunity to introduce new human characters and Niska is clearly a loose cannon intent on some kind of mischief.
I missed George and Odi, though. I hope the writers find a way to bring one or both of them back for series 2. Perhaps Niska will be able to rescue Odi before he's scrapped and give him human feelings.
I don't understand why people didn't like that episode - everything covered and plenty of scope for continuation - I would have been a bit disappointed if everything was 'resolved' and everyone had gone home for a nice cup of tea because those endings can feel very dead.
Pete and Karen was the closest thing to a 'sunset' ending but even there we have scope for uncertainty because we don't know if the resumed friendship will ever return to the 'benefits' side of things.
Laura's final realisation that Niska probably has a copy of the magic beans was I think enough to take the edge off that 'happy family' bit - which when it started with showing only Mattie at the laptop and some odd male-sounding noises in the background I was wondering if a bit of Anita's memory had somehow got in there :eek:
Niska will of course head for the highlands where she will create an army and paint herself with the blood of synths who 'willingly' sacrificed themselves though the initial effect will be spoilt by her misunderstanding and wearing a short tartan skirt instead of a proper kilt but fortunately someone spots it before it's too late...
And now the runaways have money for clothes, boots and motorcycles which is just as well because a bunch of people wearing same-style wooly hats will always stand out from a crowd - one of whom I think almost recognised Niska.
Yes, but I really think she was those things because of Mia being trapped inside her. Mia was never going to be as interesting as Anita, how could she be? ^_^
Well, we - but not most of the characters - could, for instance, have found out that Mia was indeed in control during her tryst with Joe. That would raise all sorts of questions; add anticipation of this secret coming out; pose a threat to, and therefore conflict with, Laura; give Mia internal emotional conflicts of her own; etc. Alternatively, maybe Mia's love for Leo is all-consuming making her possessive and seeing anyone else getting emotionally close to him (Karen, Mattie?) as a threat?
Maybe they're saving that or similar for next season? I think the fact that she hugged Laura but wasn't going to - as Sophie pointed out to any audience members who might have missed it - say goodbye to the kids (not saying anything to Joe is more understandable) is going to be significant.
Anita was taking Sophie out to get her made into a cyborg. We seen at the end Sophie talking like a synth and cleaning the house, so that was her conversion complete.
Yes, and don't forget the bit where Mia made that 'joke' about them teking over and enslaving humanity - it wasn't a joke, it was a cunning ploy and double-bluff to lull everyone into a false sense of security!
... For some reason in the final episode they seemed to feel that Fred was more important, and the detective synth. ...
I thought they were - Fred was critical for them to be found, and there had to be the 'I control your free will' demo. He had to have some focus to re-emphasise that he wasn't just some other synth in any case - an interesting point about 'he knows better than the rest of us how to look after himself' so maybe he is the one with extensive files on human anatomy and weak spots.
The detective seems to have control over what happened in the virtual environment, not just participation, presumably programmed as 'mother' even there - and maybe required to be there to open the door and allow the kids to fly the nest, as it were. I'd guess the programmed maternal instinct overrode the desire to eliminate the free synths as that would also kill Leo.
... I missed George and Odi, though. I hope the writers find a way to bring one or both of them back for series 2. ...
I think a lot of important memories from George are going to be in Odi's head, albeit in anecdotal form*, and maybe even some extra memory customisation too. I suspect some of George's words will return to give Niska a vital moment of hesitation before killing someone and already seem to have had at least some effect with Niska understanding that smashing people up is wrong but now she has the option of a genuine guilt trip which may or may not be something she can switch off.
* I would suggest 'in anecdotal form' is the natural state for a memory, not a 'file of facts'
I assume Voss's eyes are brown either because Elster specifically made them to be brown so she would look like Beatrice, or because she got contacts like Niska in order to blend in as a human.
I think she had brown eyes in the flashbacks/memories, so they were made to be the same colour of Beatrice.
Hmmm, so the idea that free will is an illusion is unable to be proved or disproved. How do you know it's an illusion? Do you know it? Or have you made a free will decision to believe it;-)
If by "free will" you mean the laws of physics don't apply to you, then that's a strong claim which needs strong evidence. There is no evidence, other than the subjective feeling, which is what we mean by the "illusion".
Even if you think you have a non-physical soul and the soul makes all the decisions, that just begs the question. What rules is the soul subject to? How does the soul make its decisions? Do souls also have souls; is this an infinite regress? If souls have some mechanism that makes decisions directly, why can't humans have that mechanism directly too?
Interesting. So does that make us all robots then?
My experience is that I'm making choices. If I'm not making those choices, who or what is? Who or what has programmed me?
Short answer: evolution, culture and your parents. You make choices in the same way a chess-playing computer decides whether to castle kings side or queens side. The difference is the computer is less opaque; we understand it, because we programmed it ourselves. Humans are much harder to understand, but they aren't magic. The very notion of magic, in this context, is incoherent.
They still haven't proved the new synths are conscious.
They didn't prove the humans were conscious either. They didn't need to, in either case.
The Chinese room argument rules out procedural coding as the basis for sentience.
No, it doesn't. It just shows that Searle isn't as smart as he thinks he is. He thinks if the room as a whole understands, then some component of the room must being doing the understanding. That's not how it works.
Confused by the whole flash drive thing; so they appeared to give Laura a hard drive (containing the secret coding?) which she hid in the airing cupboard. But Niska had a duplicate - or the real info & Laura's was blank.
Then Mattie seemed to discover that she had lost a flash drive - was this something else & what did it contain if so?
Sorry, I couldn't follow it, if anyone can explain...
In the end and from reading peoples reactions i wonder if this series was targeted at the young adult generation that has been raised on Hunger Games, Twilight etc. easily pleased and liable to break into juvenile tears for no reason.
Confused by the whole flash drive thing; so they appeared to give Laura a hard drive (containing the secret coding?) which she hid in the airing cupboard. But Niska had a duplicate - or the real info & Laura's was blank.
Then Mattie seemed to discover that she had lost a flash drive - was this something else & what did it contain if so?
Sorry, I couldn't follow it, if anyone can explain...
Confused by the whole flash drive thing; so they appeared to give Laura a hard drive (containing the secret coding?) which she hid in the airing cupboard. But Niska had a duplicate - or the real info & Laura's was blank.
Then Mattie seemed to discover that she had lost a flash drive - was this something else & what did it contain if so?
Sorry, I couldn't follow it, if anyone can explain...
I assumed that the flash drive which Niska had is Mattie's.
Comments
Well there are 2 bits to freedom of choice.
One is whether there is a 'you' to make a choice.
The other is whether everything you do is an actual choice based on nothing that has happened before it.
For instance will you reply to this post or not? If I hadn't made this post then you wouldn't have the choice to make. But because I have made this post, you now have a sense of a choice. but that choice will be determined by many other factors.
They need electricity; who's going to pay for that? As for homes, sophisticated pieces of machinery don't do well spending all their time outdoors. Basically, they're going to need things from others which will mean they'll either have to steal (with the obvious dangers/consequences) or barter for them; money is just a sophisticated form of bartering.
The charging points cost money.
I don't know, I think Mia was bound to be less interesting than Anita. Anita was interesting because she had Mia inside her fighting to get out, so her behaviour was unpredictable and she was a mystery. Mia is just a straightforward character, and a very motherly character at that.
They might not need food (although Leo does), but they do need stuff. They have to be able to charge every day, they need clothes, and if they don't want to end up looking homeless (which presumably would be very strange for a synth and would stand out to people) they need to be able to wash those clothes. They are also, as we saw in the first episode, at risk from rouge modders as well as Hobb/the government so while they don't have to have a home being able to stay places would definitely be helpful. Not to mention maybe needing phones to call each other or being able to take the bus/train.
Oh good,
They are just using behaviorism to say they are conscious because they act more human than other synths.
Also they are only acting more human because they have had real human memories implanted in them.
The Chinese room argument rules out procedural coding as the basis for sentience.
The Matrix like coding with the tree appearing in the coding is just visual stuff for us viewers.
No idea where you got that they have had real human memories implanted in them? That was never shown.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the "Chinese room argument" but even if it rules out coding as a basis for sentience in reality, this is science fiction; it doesn't have to follow our rules.
Yes, but I really think she was those things because of Mia being trapped inside her. Mia was never going to be as interesting as Anita, how could she be? ^_^
I did get that sort of feeling in the final episode.
Anita/Mia was almost the main protagonist throughout the series, but in the last episode it was almost as if she was an extra.
Niska too. Very prominent character who was building up over the series, but she too fizzled out in this episode and like Mia hardly had much to do.
For some reason in the final episode they seemed to feel that Fred was more important, and the detective synth. Both characters who only really started to feature in the last couple of episodes.
Plus I felt it was lacking the William Hurt character and his faulty synth. Their story in the series doesn't seem to have had much point in the grand scheme of things. That was a story thread which just stopped dead and only appeared to serve to give Niska a place to hide out for an episode or two.
The Neil Maskell character too. It seems like his only real purpose in this series was to give the two kids a lift in the final episode.:D
Still enjoyable, but I felt that there was no payoff. The story writers seemed to think that their family story of the couple getting back together was enough. It probably was enough for most people who like to watch television for comfort and familiarity, but not for me it wasn't.
I think so much more could have and should have been done with the set-up they had here. Some characters seem to have been wasted.
I don't think you appreciate the significance of this comment. It's like the point of the entire series has completely gone over your head.
Overall, I enjoyed the final episode but really wasn't interested in Laura's and Joe's relationship and the story about Tom. I hope they don't feature too much in series 2. I think it will be interesting now Leo and co. have split up. There's the opportunity to introduce new human characters and Niska is clearly a loose cannon intent on some kind of mischief.
I missed George and Odi, though. I hope the writers find a way to bring one or both of them back for series 2. Perhaps Niska will be able to rescue Odi before he's scrapped and give him human feelings.
Pete and Karen was the closest thing to a 'sunset' ending but even there we have scope for uncertainty because we don't know if the resumed friendship will ever return to the 'benefits' side of things.
Laura's final realisation that Niska probably has a copy of the magic beans was I think enough to take the edge off that 'happy family' bit - which when it started with showing only Mattie at the laptop and some odd male-sounding noises in the background I was wondering if a bit of Anita's memory had somehow got in there :eek:
Niska will of course head for the highlands where she will create an army and paint herself with the blood of synths who 'willingly' sacrificed themselves though the initial effect will be spoilt by her misunderstanding and wearing a short tartan skirt instead of a proper kilt but fortunately someone spots it before it's too late...
And now the runaways have money for clothes, boots and motorcycles which is just as well because a bunch of people wearing same-style wooly hats will always stand out from a crowd - one of whom I think almost recognised Niska.
Well, we - but not most of the characters - could, for instance, have found out that Mia was indeed in control during her tryst with Joe. That would raise all sorts of questions; add anticipation of this secret coming out; pose a threat to, and therefore conflict with, Laura; give Mia internal emotional conflicts of her own; etc. Alternatively, maybe Mia's love for Leo is all-consuming making her possessive and seeing anyone else getting emotionally close to him (Karen, Mattie?) as a threat?
Maybe they're saving that or similar for next season? I think the fact that she hugged Laura but wasn't going to - as Sophie pointed out to any audience members who might have missed it - say goodbye to the kids (not saying anything to Joe is more understandable) is going to be significant.
I thought they were - Fred was critical for them to be found, and there had to be the 'I control your free will' demo. He had to have some focus to re-emphasise that he wasn't just some other synth in any case - an interesting point about 'he knows better than the rest of us how to look after himself' so maybe he is the one with extensive files on human anatomy and weak spots.
The detective seems to have control over what happened in the virtual environment, not just participation, presumably programmed as 'mother' even there - and maybe required to be there to open the door and allow the kids to fly the nest, as it were. I'd guess the programmed maternal instinct overrode the desire to eliminate the free synths as that would also kill Leo.
I think a lot of important memories from George are going to be in Odi's head, albeit in anecdotal form*, and maybe even some extra memory customisation too. I suspect some of George's words will return to give Niska a vital moment of hesitation before killing someone and already seem to have had at least some effect with Niska understanding that smashing people up is wrong but now she has the option of a genuine guilt trip which may or may not be something she can switch off.
* I would suggest 'in anecdotal form' is the natural state for a memory, not a 'file of facts'
My take is the opposite: that they had tents shows they weren't okay outside, any more than humans would be. They needed protection from the elements.
I think they'd have wanted to get contact lenses in order to pass as human, and then other documents, eg to travel.
If by "free will" you mean the laws of physics don't apply to you, then that's a strong claim which needs strong evidence. There is no evidence, other than the subjective feeling, which is what we mean by the "illusion".
Even if you think you have a non-physical soul and the soul makes all the decisions, that just begs the question. What rules is the soul subject to? How does the soul make its decisions? Do souls also have souls; is this an infinite regress? If souls have some mechanism that makes decisions directly, why can't humans have that mechanism directly too?
Short answer: evolution, culture and your parents. You make choices in the same way a chess-playing computer decides whether to castle kings side or queens side. The difference is the computer is less opaque; we understand it, because we programmed it ourselves. Humans are much harder to understand, but they aren't magic. The very notion of magic, in this context, is incoherent.
They didn't prove the humans were conscious either. They didn't need to, in either case.
No, it doesn't. It just shows that Searle isn't as smart as he thinks he is. He thinks if the room as a whole understands, then some component of the room must being doing the understanding. That's not how it works.
Then Mattie seemed to discover that she had lost a flash drive - was this something else & what did it contain if so?
Sorry, I couldn't follow it, if anyone can explain...
I assumed that the flash drive which Niska had is Mattie's.