Fellani is not the replacement for Carrick. Anderson and Kagawa should be.
Agreed, but at this point, only a quote from the original series of Star Trek will do:
"It's worse than that, he's dead Jim!"
All good points. We may suffer but we will be stronger for the pain. I have this strange feeling - and it is no more than a feeling, that we may be okay. Apart from Fellani; Jones, Anderson and Kagawa are all mobile and young. The team has come to rely heavily (almost lazily) on Carrick's incredibly accurate first-time distribution over the last two seasons. Once they adjust to his loss we may see more of the high-tempo, short-range stuff we used to play more often.
Oh Christ, I forgot about Giggs.
Yes. I really do feel a 3 man middy is the way to go. I want to see Kagawa centre-stage as well, but agree with all those who say he offers little defensively. Perhaps this kind of set up:
why are you even mentioning anderson, he's done at united, he'll be sold in january if anyone comes in for him. as for a 3 man midfield, that won't happen as it would mean playing one of rvp-rooney out of position...
Batdude's point stands. He's hardly had a run of games, has he?
And his best position is just off the front men. Don't like that style of play? Fair enough.
It's a strange signing and I still quite can't quite work out why Moyes bought him in. Essentially Fellaini's struggling because he's being asked not to play how he played at Everton, you know the target man off the striker, all elbows and swinging afro kinda role.
This isn't really his fault. You don't spend £27m on a player and then ask him to play totally differenly to what made him stand out to you in the first place. It just doesn't make sense. I'm left with the feeling that after the summer debacle, we went to him in the final hour and with a sigh just sort of went 'alright then, we'll have to make do with you'
Of course he will. We don't pay £27m for a player and leave him to rot on the bench.
*cough* Veron, *cough* Berbatov.
Let's just say that it's rare. Fellaini could be a really effective player for us, if used correctly. He's not a replacement for Carrick, though.
The two everton fans I know IRL laugh at the way we are trying to use Fellani ATM. He can win the ball, but expecting him to create or even pass as effectively as Carrick is wishing for too much. They both agree with you as well, as I guess most Everton fans would, that he is much better further forward.
Just want to stick up for Jones as well. I think he has the chops to consistently distribute the ball much better than we have seen so far. I have no worries for him in the middle at all. It Jones and one other ATM, so long as we have defensive cover.
PS If Anderson is to go In January, what better way than to give him a few games now to get his value up?
It's a strange signing and I still quite can't quite work out why Moyes bought him in. Essentially Fellaini's struggling because he's being asked not to play how he played at Everton, you know the target man off the striker, all elbows and swinging afro kinda role.
This isn't really his fault. You don't spend £27m on a player and then ask him to play totally differenly to what made him stand out to you in the first place. It just doesn't make. I'm left with the feeling that after the summer debacle, we went to him in the final hour and with a sigh just sort of went 'alright then, we'll have to make do with you'
I don't disagree. He was the last resort, in my opinion.
A player who cost that much should have an immediate impact.
I don't agree that any player should make an immediate impact because of cost, but he should have hit the ground running simply because of the time he's spent playing in the prem and against us beforehand. Yes, he's been playing out of position, but I don't remember him being so off the pace at Everton.
I am willing to give him time though because of a few flashes of his former glory and mostly on the grounds of "don't become a bad player overnight"...
Wouldn't work. Kagawa and Valencia can't play in central midfield. Defensively your line up is flawed.
It wouldn't work because Carrick is out. Valencia can do a defensive job but he is so right-footed he'd be practically useless anywhere on the left side. We don't know if Kagawa can play as a CM or not. There's no "can't".
You must have spent a lot of time with these players, to know what they can and can't do.
Valencia is more than capable of playing in that formation. Don't like Kagawa there? Switch him for Cleverley/Anderson/whoever.
ac milan used to play that formation. it's the shape of a christmas tree. it is a system without wingers. and given that valencia is a winger, he won't fit in .
ac milan play that formation. it's the shape of a christmas tree. it is a system without wingers. and given that valencia is a winger, he won't fit in .
kagawa's best position is behind the striker.
So, you've paid no attention to the fact that Valencia has played at right-back, several times, and been decent then?
'He can't do that, he's a winger!'.
Kagawa has not demonstrated anything in a United shirt, hence my suggestion to swap him for Cleverley. Also ignored.
Your 'knowledge' of AC Milan is irrelevant. They have different players. And I'm well aware of it looking like a Christmas tree. Venables did something similar, with England.
So, you've paid no attention to the fact that Valencia has played at right-back, several times, and been decent then?
'He can't do that, he's a winger!'.
Kagawa has not demonstrated anything in a United shirt, hence my suggestion to swap him for Cleverley. Also ignored.
Your 'knowledge' of AC Milan is irrelevant. They have different players. And I'm well aware of it looking like a Christmas tree. Venables did something similar, with England.
I agree with your thoughts on Valencia playing right back but I can't see how that would be relevant in him playing one of 3 CMs in a 4321 system. they all need to be comfortable on the ball and simply put he's not. He's comfortable either running forward with it, or tackling someone... he can't stand on the ball, look up, pick a pass, receive a pass in tight spaces etc which is required for that roll (well, to be effective in it).
That said, I do think it would solve a lot of our problems, in many ways it may mean we'd get rid of Nani, Valencia and Young... but then we are Man Utd and we have to play with 2 wingers, and Moyes always played 442 at Everton too didn't he?
I agree with your thoughts on Valencia playing right back but I can't see how that would be relevant in him playing one of 3 CMs in a 4321 system. they all need to be comfortable on the ball and simply put he's not. He's comfortable either running forward with it, or tackling someone... he can't stand on the ball, look up, pick a pass, receive a pass in tight spaces etc which is required for that roll (well, to be effective in it).
That said, I do think it would solve a lot of our problems, in many ways it may mean we'd get rid of Nani, Valencia and Young... but then we are Man Utd and we have to play with 2 wingers, and Moyes always played 442 at Everton too didn't he?
I don't think Moyes would opt for a narrow formation.
He played the 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 with Everton.
I don't think Moyes would opt for a narrow formation.
He played the 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 with Everton.
I'm not saying for a second that I think that Moyes would actually do this, it's just a suggestion to negate the loss of Carrick, and the ineptitude of our wingers.
A player who cost that much should have an immediate impact.
It seems to me that Fellaini was a panic buy.
No matter the price tag of a player, the one thing that doesn't change, is that they are human, with human emotions and feelings.
They are not robots, where you take them out of one place, and put them somewhere else, they will work exactly the same, with humans there are other factors at work.
Some people take time to adjust to new surroundings, and team-mates etc, and this should not be held against anyone, it is only natural.
To be saying that just because he cost a fair bit of money, he shouldn't be affected by these things, is just wrong.
Let's see how he his doing at the turn of the new year, when he will be a little bit more settled in here with us, before we go about judging him.
Comments
And just how long were you prepared to give him to adapt?
Nine games, not all of them full ones, is not really enough time to judge someone.
Let's see how he is at the turn of the new year, that would be more like it.
Nine games is nothing.
Batdude's point stands. He's hardly had a run of games, has he?
And his best position is just off the front men. Don't like that style of play? Fair enough.
He will be fine.
why are you even mentioning anderson, he's done at united, he'll be sold in january if anyone comes in for him. as for a 3 man midfield, that won't happen as it would mean playing one of rvp-rooney out of position...
Who is playing off the front men for united these days ? Cleverly ?
Of course he will. We don't pay £27m for a player and leave him to rot on the bench.
*cough* Veron, *cough* Berbatov.
Let's just say that it's rare. Fellaini could be a really effective player for us, if used correctly. He's not a replacement for Carrick, though.
Nobody, because we play two up front.
Play 4-3-2-1 and you'd solve a lot of our problems, as far as I'm concerned.
It's a strange signing and I still quite can't quite work out why Moyes bought him in. Essentially Fellaini's struggling because he's being asked not to play how he played at Everton, you know the target man off the striker, all elbows and swinging afro kinda role.
This isn't really his fault. You don't spend £27m on a player and then ask him to play totally differenly to what made him stand out to you in the first place. It just doesn't make sense. I'm left with the feeling that after the summer debacle, we went to him in the final hour and with a sigh just sort of went 'alright then, we'll have to make do with you'
A player who cost that much should have an immediate impact.
It seems to me that Fellaini was a panic buy.
Rooney drops deeper sometimes.
Fellaini scored goals when he played off the main striker. He won't score any goals as a CM or DM. This guy has "flop" written all over him.
The two everton fans I know IRL laugh at the way we are trying to use Fellani ATM. He can win the ball, but expecting him to create or even pass as effectively as Carrick is wishing for too much. They both agree with you as well, as I guess most Everton fans would, that he is much better further forward.
Just want to stick up for Jones as well. I think he has the chops to consistently distribute the ball much better than we have seen so far. I have no worries for him in the middle at all. It Jones and one other ATM, so long as we have defensive cover.
PS If Anderson is to go In January, what better way than to give him a few games now to get his value up?
Hows about giving the guy a chance before writing him off, the man has hardly played that much so far.
Flop :rolleyes: lets wait and see first.
I don't disagree. He was the last resort, in my opinion.
That's why I'd play him as a part of the '2', behind Van Persie.
De Gea
Rafael, Smalling, Evans, Evra
Valencia, Carrick, Kagawa
Rooney, Fellaini
Van Persie.
Bring in Hernandez, Nani, Januzaj, Welbeck, Jones, Cleverley, etc. as need be.
Wouldn't work. Kagawa and Valencia can't play in central midfield. Defensively your line up is flawed.
I don't agree that any player should make an immediate impact because of cost, but he should have hit the ground running simply because of the time he's spent playing in the prem and against us beforehand. Yes, he's been playing out of position, but I don't remember him being so off the pace at Everton.
I am willing to give him time though because of a few flashes of his former glory and mostly on the grounds of "don't become a bad player overnight"...
It wouldn't work because Carrick is out. Valencia can do a defensive job but he is so right-footed he'd be practically useless anywhere on the left side. We don't know if Kagawa can play as a CM or not. There's no "can't".
Sorry, Sir Alex.
I bow to your superior knowledge.
You must have spent a lot of time with these players, to know what they can and can't do.
Valencia is more than capable of playing in that formation. Don't like Kagawa there? Switch him for Cleverley/Anderson/whoever.
ac milan used to play that formation. it's the shape of a christmas tree. it is a system without wingers. and given that valencia is a winger, he won't fit in .
kagawa's best position is behind the striker.
So, you've paid no attention to the fact that Valencia has played at right-back, several times, and been decent then?
'He can't do that, he's a winger!'.
Kagawa has not demonstrated anything in a United shirt, hence my suggestion to swap him for Cleverley. Also ignored.
Your 'knowledge' of AC Milan is irrelevant. They have different players. And I'm well aware of it looking like a Christmas tree. Venables did something similar, with England.
I agree with your thoughts on Valencia playing right back but I can't see how that would be relevant in him playing one of 3 CMs in a 4321 system. they all need to be comfortable on the ball and simply put he's not. He's comfortable either running forward with it, or tackling someone... he can't stand on the ball, look up, pick a pass, receive a pass in tight spaces etc which is required for that roll (well, to be effective in it).
That said, I do think it would solve a lot of our problems, in many ways it may mean we'd get rid of Nani, Valencia and Young... but then we are Man Utd and we have to play with 2 wingers, and Moyes always played 442 at Everton too didn't he?
This.
I don't think Moyes would opt for a narrow formation.
He played the 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 with Everton.
I'm not saying for a second that I think that Moyes would actually do this, it's just a suggestion to negate the loss of Carrick, and the ineptitude of our wingers.
Wouldn't be a bad signing, but I'm not sure that he'd be able to oust Cleverley.
It would be a superb signing, but back in real life, I cannot see it happening.
No matter the price tag of a player, the one thing that doesn't change, is that they are human, with human emotions and feelings.
They are not robots, where you take them out of one place, and put them somewhere else, they will work exactly the same, with humans there are other factors at work.
Some people take time to adjust to new surroundings, and team-mates etc, and this should not be held against anyone, it is only natural.
To be saying that just because he cost a fair bit of money, he shouldn't be affected by these things, is just wrong.
Let's see how he his doing at the turn of the new year, when he will be a little bit more settled in here with us, before we go about judging him.