Vastra, Jenny and Strax - Why?

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  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    Dogmatix wrote: »
    'This'? What's that? Is it 'forumspeak'? What does it mean, that you agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment previously expressed? I'm not trying to criticise; I just don't know what this 'this' means. Talking of which, I sometimes see 'meh' as a response in a forum; what does that mean?
    "This" is just a short way of saying "I agree with this" or "I like this" or "This is correct", or "Yes, this is what I think too". You want to post something, but you don't have anything else to add, so you just say that "this" is what you want to say too.You'll often see it accompanied with a caret character masquerading as an up-arrow, like:
    ^ this
    tying the comment to the original post even more directly.
  • garbage456garbage456 Posts: 8,225
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    i like the potato head but the other 2 can just go.
  • Shawn_LunnShawn_Lunn Posts: 9,353
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    What have Vastra and Jenny done so badly to annoy some people?
  • cuccircuccir Posts: 132
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    I didn't like the way that they were first introduced in A Good Man Goes to War: I think it's a perfect example of Moffatt trying to cram a bit too much in.

    It's not confusing to follow, it's just slightly crappy for a TV show to say "these people are good friends of the central character who would help him in his hour of need, despite you having never seen them on screen before" in the middle of a season finale. With the exception of Rory, the Moffatt era has been weaker at allowing characters to be gradually introduced into the story: while Captain Jack, Mickey Smith, Harriet Jones, Wilf all developed over the series, meeting the Doctor, becoming more involved with him, and then developing their own roles, most of Moffatt's side-characters come charging into the screen - leaving us having to fill the gaps ourselves. FWIW, I think the fact that he has been the only slow-burner character over the Moffatt series explains why Rory was so popular.

    More keen on them now though that a bit more work has been put into introducing them, and hopefully over the series they'll develop a little more. I think that overall Doctor Who is a better show for these various recurring characters who can add a bit of interest to the 'monster of the week' format, as well as help shift on the plot at little.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,753
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    There's a bit of a catch 22 going on. There's only 45 minutes in an episode to play with.either you foot more story and plot in or you fit more character development in. Since these are 2ndary characters we are talking about, I think it is probably more beneficial to have more plot/story/primary character stuff. The way its been getting done recently allows these characters a little bit of mystery, while giving us little teasers each time we see them. I'm sure in the future we'll get to see more info on them, maybe even see the first time they all meet etc.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    cuccir wrote:
    With the exception of Rory, the Moffatt era has been weaker at allowing characters to be gradually introduced into the story: while Captain Jack, Mickey Smith, Harriet Jones, Wilf all developed over the series, meeting the Doctor, becoming more involved with him, and then developing their own roles, most of Moffatt's side-characters come charging into the screen - leaving us having to fill the gaps ourselves.

    I can't agree - you can't compare characters that have been in many multiple episodes vs. ones that have only appeared in one or two. In Mickey's first appearance, he was nothing more than something Rose was leaving behind, he was something we just accepted was always there. The only difference is that were weren't interested in Mickey's backstory, and he only became more interesting after repeat appearances. Remember that some of the characters you're comparing were only intended as one-shot, they weren't intended to unfold. Who else would they have brought in to serve in the Doctor's army?

    There are two modes of thought here - that it's better to have a simple, easy-to-grasp archetype (boring boyfriend, meek MP, space rogue) and develop that character as their adventures with the Doctor change them, or have interesting and complex characters right from the off, as if the Doctor is drawn to them. I don't think it actually has anything to do with how fast the characters are introduced.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27
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    In which case, you missed the point entirely. We don't need detail. The whole idea is that these characters know the Doctor well, and we don't know them at all. The narrative device is there to give the impression of the bigger universe, that there are so many untold stories of the Doctor that even we don't know. That the Doctor has touched more lives that even the viewers can keep up with. As such, they are given as much introduction and development as any recurring character.

    We don't see Jackie Tyler being given backstory and motivation in every episode she appears in. It's a testament to Moffat's character writing skill that the characters became so interesting and well-loved without the time to settle in with the audience.


    Go on then, without looking it up, tell me one thing about Duggan apart from him being a detective that likes punching things.

    But the problem is that we pretty know everything about them that needs to be known. There is hardly any mystery with these characters, their whole (limited background) that we need to know is pretty much explained. The only so called mystery is the stupid debts which will never even be talked about for more then two lines and seem to be just thrown out to give any justification on why they were in the story in the first place. Really its about criticism of the story A good man goes to war and its themes that are stupidly brought in, developed and executed horribly, I don't have the time to go in depth on why I saw AGMGTW preposterous, these reviews do it for me http://www.androzani.com/goodman.shtml
    http://www.shadowlocked.com/201112212306/reviews/doctor-who-complete-reviews-a-good-man-goes-to-war-lets-kill-hitler.html

    What Duggan has that the other three do not is believability. Mainly because unlike AGMGTW City of Death does not try to do too much. As such with Duggan he is a much more flesh out character. His motivations and objectives are fleshed out and the story is written that you feel that he should be a part of it. A big difference to AGMGTW where the only thing that links them is the stupid "I owe a debt and therefore must be part of an army" and nothing else, which does not give me a good reason why I should take interest. Sure Duggan may not be a lesbian reptile humanoid who uses Katanas and eats people. But the story he is in fleshes out much better and makes him more likable and interesting that when he does things like punching people I actually cheer for him. Just because its a sci-fi shows does no mean you can just throw a character, give it some silly gimmick and the instantly expect me to get behind it. You still need to flesh out why they are in the story and how they contribute to it. In the two stories Vasta, Jenny and Strax feel like they feel no more then background characters with no fleshed out motivations or purposes It seems like The Moff is basically using them as stock characters, where if he is struggling to put characters in a story, he will just throw them in there and expect it to improve the story. A bit like the Master in the 80s with stories like The King's deamons, where it seems that he is basically put in their because the writers can't flesh out an interesting villain and so he is part of some stupid plot ideas such as wanting to stop Magna Carter, for no reasons or purposes other then just for laughs which is not exactly a good story.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 955
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    but City of Death has twice the runtime of AGMGTW.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27
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    Torry_Z wrote: »
    but City of Death has twice the runtime of AGMGTW.

    But it doesn't try to do too much and doesn't try and introduce themes that make no good impression. Its about giving us a plot to embrace us in and see how the characters do in it.

    Hell, The Powwer of Three, which has little plot that is pushed into the background, is able to make Kate Sparrow an excellent character. Her background, motivations and objectives make me interested in her and actively care what happens to her (I mean Strax dies in AGMGTW but then is quickly brought back to life in The Snowmen that again is poorly explained, which just makes me feel even more that he is just a cardboard cut out with no reasons to be emotionally invested in him) In short she becomes a character would not mind been put in future episodes, the other three I could not give a damn.
  • DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
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    garbage456 wrote: »
    i like the potato head but the other 2 can just go.

    Jenny is my favourite of the three!
  • JohnnyForgetJohnnyForget Posts: 24,061
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    nottelling wrote: »
    But it doesn't try to do too much and doesn't try and introduce themes that make no good impression. Its about giving us a plot to embrace us in and see how the characters do in it.

    Hell, The Powwer of Three, which has little plot that is pushed into the background, is able to make Kate Sparrow an excellent character. Her background, motivations and objectives make me interested in her and actively care what happens to her (I mean Strax dies in AGMGTW but then is quickly brought back to life in The Snowmen that again is poorly explained, which just makes me feel even more that he is just a cardboard cut out with no reasons to be emotionally invested in him) In short she becomes a character would not mind been put in future episodes, the other three I could not give a damn.

    Sally's mother?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27
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    Sally's mother?

    Sorry, Kate Stewart. Unfortunately I'm bad at getting out my thoughts through typewriting, and long for someone to invent something that can allow my to use handwriting and somehow turn it to Times New Roman text on the screen.
  • DogmatixDogmatix Posts: 2,286
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    Sue_Aitch wrote: »
    The use of 'This' here is a slightly quicker way of saying 'Ditto' or in parliamentary language "Hear, hear" and the Urban Dictionary gives other examples
    Thank you.
    Sue_Aitch wrote: »
    'Meh' is one of Donna's lines in "Silence in the Library" IIRC.
    ...meaning "Am I bovvered?"
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,753
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    The doctor spent WAY too long talking to Kate Stewart in po3. If they had chopped a minute or 2 of that maybe they could have had time to put in a real ending.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    If Duggan is fleshed out, then you should be able to tell me one thing about him apart from being a detective and punching things. He's one-dimensional comic relief at best.

    I don't understand what you're trying to argue about the 'mystery' of the characters - is there no mystery because "know everything about them that needs to be known" or is there mystery because they are introduced too quickly with "no fleshed out motivations or purposes"?

    As I said before, they were clearly supposed to be one-shot background characters, so complaining they're treated as one-shot background characters seems to miss the point somewhat. They were entirely supposed to be illustrations of how the Doctor turns people into things they weren't - a Silurian living among humans, a Sontaran healer, a selfish conman repaying a debt - and their unique attributes are played up for fun.

    To see people clamouring for more of these characters shows that there is an appetite there that wasn't expected.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,753
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    I think some people just don't like the idea that others do like these 3 characters.
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