The way that multicast works is that a single stream it sent to the edge routers (21 CN "metro" nodes in this case I think) and then from that point is distributed to the end points - customers. So the technical issue with supporting non-Infinity customers is down to the back-haul network and how much capacity is available within it to support this type of service.
Sorry I can't give you any dates because this is down to the BT Group companies.
Hope this helps.
Infinidim :cool:
You're spot on there. BT Wholesale's ADSL2+ service does actually work over the 21CN network also but I have some question marks over how it would all work for multicasting on ADSL2+.
With VDSL (FTTC), the fibre cabinets are connected to the nearest headend (usually the largest big exchange), which often isn't the nearest exchange to the customer.
So an ADSL2+ customer will be connected to the local exchange, which probably won't support multicasting (as it is a small exchange, not a headend one), but if they were to switch to FTTC they would be connected to the headend exchange, which will support multicasting. It is very complicated!
You're spot on there. BT Wholesale's ADSL2+ service does actually work over the 21CN network also but I have some question marks over how it would all work for multicasting on ADSL2+.
With VDSL (FTTC), the fibre cabinets are connected to the nearest headend (usually the largest big exchange), which often isn't the nearest exchange to the customer.
So an ADSL2+ customer will be connected to the local exchange, which probably won't support multicasting (as it is a small exchange, not a headend one), but if they were to switch to FTTC they would be connected to the headend exchange, which will support multicasting. It is very complicated!
MikeB, firstly send me a PM (Private mail) please.
Secondly, ADSL2+ , yes this is an interesting one.
If the ADSL2+ is being run off an MSAN in the local exchange then it's an easy one. Basically the MSAN are connected back to the access layer of the 21CN network and so basically take the same ultimate route as the fibre access solutions (FTTC etc.) over the 21CN network with the exception of the copper access layer. If the ADSL2+ service is being run on the old DSLAM's that they had out there then the only thing that I can think is that the go ATM to the BRAS and then into the 21CN cloud from there. All this is assumption currently but
MikeB, firstly send me a PM (Private mail) please.
Secondly, ADSL2+ , yes this is an interesting one.
If the ADSL2+ is being run off an MSAN in the local exchange then it's an easy one. Basically the MSAN are connected back to the access layer of the 21CN network and so basically take the same ultimate route as the fibre access solutions (FTTC etc.) over the 21CN network with the exception of the copper access layer. If the ADSL2+ service is being run on the old DSLAM's that they had out there then the only thing that I can think is that the go ATM to the BRAS and then into the 21CN cloud from there. All this is assumption currently but
Had a strange conversation today with BT. I have got the "black" BT Vision box, and as most of you know I also have Infinity Option 2. So you would think that I could get BT TV.... we'll the answer is no!!! :eek: The BT Vision box I have even though it's a BT Vision+ box can't support the software that is needed for BT TV. They say I need to update it at £199 or have a BT YouView box at £49 with a subscription of £5 a month for 12 months.:(
I will keep this forum updated on how this progresses.
Had a strange conversation today with BT. I have got the "black" BT Vision box, and as most of you know I also have Infinity Option 2. So you would think that I could get BT TV.... we'll the answer is no!!! :eek: The BT Vision box I have even though it's a BT Vision+ box can't support the software that is needed for BT TV. They say I need to update it at £199 or have a BT YouView box at £49 with a subscription of £5 a month for 12 months.:(
I will keep this forum updated on how this progresses.
Infinidim :cool:
I know some of the answers you want.
What you have been told by the Newcastle Support Team is true. 256 boxes cannot handle the new Multicast channels. But the 512's can.
Not exactly free though is it? Any other queries, infinidim?
Once they have written off the old DSLAM's then everybody I think will be either fibre (FTTC, etc.) or MSAN where they can't install fibre.
Infinidim :cool:
The idea is that TV connect will be rolled out to all exchanges where 21C is enabled. What I meant though is all the FTTC headends will be enabled for TV Connect first (it makes more economic sense as just think how many fibre cabinets, and therefore customers would be connected to one headend). They will be added first then the smaller, non headend exchanges can be added. BT's insistence on Infinity for TV is a bandwidth issue, as 16Mb is needed to stream two HD channels.
Had a strange conversation today with BT. I have got the "black" BT Vision box, and as most of you know I also have Infinity Option 2. So you would think that I could get BT TV.... we'll the answer is no!!! :eek: The BT Vision box I have even though it's a BT Vision+ box can't support the software that is needed for BT TV. They say I need to update it at £199 or have a BT YouView box at £49 with a subscription of £5 a month for 12 months.:(
I will keep this forum updated on how this progresses.
What you have been told by the Newcastle Support Team is true. 256 boxes cannot handle the new Multicast channels. But the 512's can.
Not exactly free though is it? Any other queries, infinidim?
Thanks VisionMan. I am still fighting the "dark empire" even though I used to work for them to get BT TV on a Vision box (or something that BT will support for a while) that I don't have to pay "the earth" to get.:D
The idea is that TV connect will be rolled out to all exchanges where 21C is enabled. What I meant though is all the FTTC headends will be enabled for TV Connect first (it makes more economic sense as just think how many fibre cabinets, and therefore customers would be connected to one headend). They will be added first then the smaller, non headend exchanges can be added. BT's insistence on Infinity for TV is a bandwidth issue, as 16Mb is needed to stream two HD channels.
The idea is that TV connect will be rolled out to all exchanges where 21C is enabled. What I meant though is all the FTTC headends will be enabled for TV Connect first (it makes more economic sense as just think how many fibre cabinets, and therefore customers would be connected to one headend). They will be added first then the smaller, non headend exchanges can be added. BT's insistence on Infinity for TV is a bandwidth issue, as 16Mb is needed to stream two HD channels.
Thats interesting, as I thought it was 20 (10Mbps each). And, wrongly, BT's web pages incorrectly says 15Mbps, which I sent them an email about (but was ignored).
Thats interesting, as I thought it was 20 (10Mbps each). And, wrongly, BT's web pages incorrectly says 15Mbps, which I sent them an email about (but was ignored).
Yeah you're right looking at the document that was linked to earlier. The HD streams are 10Mbit each now. They were going to be 8Mbit each so something has changed (for the better though!)
I'm quite impressed with the specs for TV Connect, should produce some good looking video streams for both SD and HD. I haven't had a chance to see the results yet but I'm considering getting the BT YouView box as a second set top box (for the bedroom), to replace my BT Vision.
Yeah you're right looking at the document that was linked to earlier. The HD streams are 10Mbit each now. They were going to be 8Mbit each so something has changed (for the better though!)
I'm quite impressed with the specs for TV Connect, should produce some good looking video streams for both SD and HD. I haven't had a chance to see the results yet but I'm considering getting the BT YouView box as a second set top box (for the bedroom), to replace my BT Vision.
I hadn't previously read that document. So SD is 'transmitted' at 3Mbps. Thats a lot lower than I expected. Or have I read that wrong?
Oh - and is the above an Open Connect Network, for any ISP that wants it? And/or to allow a YouView box on a third party ISP's network to recieved BT Vision's VoD/ live channels?
I hadn't previously read that document. So SD is 'transmitted' at 3Mbps. Thats a lot lower than I expected. Or have I read that wrong?
Oh - and is the above an Open Connect Network, for any ISP that wants it? And/or to allow a YouView box on a third party ISP's network to recieved BT Vision's VoD/ live channels?
Yes that's correct, 'transmitted' at 2.5Mbit or 3Mbit for SD. MPEG4 though so that should look good. The HD streams should look really good though at 10Mbit.
It is available from BT Wholesale to any company yes. No I've not seen anything that says third parties would be able to receive BT Vision's VoD or live channels. Each provider would have their own live channels and VoD.
Yes that's correct, 'transmitted' at 2.5Mbit or 3Mbit for SD. MPEG4 though so that should look good. The HD streams should look really good though at 10Mbit.
It is available from BT Wholesale to any company yes. No I've not seen anything that says third parties would be able to receive BT Vision's VoD or live channels. Each provider would have their own live channels and VoD.
Using MPEG4 (which BTV boxes use anyway) the SD picture quality should be above that of Freeview. And the HD picture quality should be above that available on satellite HD too. Nice.
I mentioned earlier in this (or some other) thread a BT Vision user posting on the BT Community forum, who has multicast channels now. He has measured the bandwidth used by SD and HD channels (by noting the corresponding drop in his general Internet bandwidth while viewing and recording the IPTV).
He measured 3.5Mbps for SD and 9Mbps for HD. Because error correction adds to the basic MPEG4/h.264/AVC bandwidth, that implies that BT are currently using the 7.5Mbps HD variant, not the 10Mbps. For SD, the jury is out: it could be either 2.5 or 3Mbps but as the 2.5Mbps uses reduced horizontal resolution, hopefully it is the 3Mbps version, which should produce a very good picture. But I will not be happy unless they use the 10Mbps version for HD, when it comes to Youview. That's roughly what ITV HD are using (fixed bitrate like BT will use).
I mentioned earlier in this (or some other) thread a BT Vision user posting on the BT Community forum, who has multicast channels now. He has measured the bandwidth used by SD and HD channels (by noting the corresponding drop in his general Internet bandwidth while viewing and recording the IPTV).
He measured 3.5Mbps for SD and 9Mbps for HD. Because error correction adds to the basic MPEG4/h.264/AVC bandwidth, that implies that BT are currently using the 7.5Mbps HD variant, not the 10Mbps. For SD, the jury is out: it could be either 2.5 or 3Mbps but as the 2.5Mbps uses reduced horizontal resolution, hopefully it is the 3Mbps version, which should produce a very good picture. But I will not be happy unless they use the 10Mbps version for HD, when it comes to Youview. That's roughly what ITV HD are using (fixed bitrate like BT will use).
That's a shame if BT Retail themselves are using the 7.5Mbit version. I was hopeful they'd want to set a good example.
I mentioned earlier in this (or some other) thread a BT Vision user posting on the BT Community forum, who has multicast channels now. He has measured the bandwidth used by SD and HD channels (by noting the corresponding drop in his general Internet bandwidth while viewing and recording the IPTV).
He measured 3.5Mbps for SD and 9Mbps for HD. Because error correction adds to the basic MPEG4/h.264/AVC bandwidth, that implies that BT are currently using the 7.5Mbps HD variant, not the 10Mbps. For SD, the jury is out: it could be either 2.5 or 3Mbps but as the 2.5Mbps uses reduced horizontal resolution, hopefully it is the 3Mbps version, which should produce a very good picture. But I will not be happy unless they use the 10Mbps version for HD, when it comes to Youview. That's roughly what ITV HD are using (fixed bitrate like BT will use).
For SD in the Supplier Information Notice (SIN for short) they state " MPEG4 [2] Part 10/AVC Main Profile Level 3 " for encoding format and " 625/50 I " for Video format and CBR bitrate of 2.5 Mbit/s for SD "Regular" (three quarter horizontal resolution) but 3.0 Mbit/s for SD "Premium" (full horizontal resolution). Audio is "128 kbit/s " bitrate, "HE-AAC v1 " encoding and " Stereo " for format.
For SD in the Supplier Information Notice (SIN for short) they state " MPEG4 [2] Part 10/AVC Main Profile Level 3 " for encoding format and " 625/50 I " for Video format and CBR bitrate of 2.5 Mbit/s for SD "Regular" (three quarter horizontal resolution) but 3.0 Mbit/s for SD "Premium" (full horizontal resolution). Audio is "128 kbit/s " bitrate, "HE-AAC v1 " encoding and " Stereo " for format.
Hope this helps.
Infinidim :cool:
The poster on the other forum could check which SD format BT Retail are using by checking the horizontal resolution. That would tell us if it is the regular or premium profile. As I say I don't have those channels yet so I can't check.
Anyone know why there are 'regular' and 'premium' options? Is this to do with third party streaming costs?
No idea, I guess so. But the third party has to stream it to BT at the same rate, regardless of the 'transmission' profile.
I guess BT charge different rates for the two transmission profiles, reflecting their own bandwidth costs. Sadly I don't ink many, if any ISPs will go for the premium options.
Comments
I note you have not had a reply, Infinidim. :rolleyes:
You're spot on there. BT Wholesale's ADSL2+ service does actually work over the 21CN network also but I have some question marks over how it would all work for multicasting on ADSL2+.
With VDSL (FTTC), the fibre cabinets are connected to the nearest headend (usually the largest big exchange), which often isn't the nearest exchange to the customer.
So an ADSL2+ customer will be connected to the local exchange, which probably won't support multicasting (as it is a small exchange, not a headend one), but if they were to switch to FTTC they would be connected to the headend exchange, which will support multicasting. It is very complicated!
MikeB, firstly send me a PM (Private mail) please.
Secondly, ADSL2+ , yes this is an interesting one.
If the ADSL2+ is being run off an MSAN in the local exchange then it's an easy one. Basically the MSAN are connected back to the access layer of the 21CN network and so basically take the same ultimate route as the fibre access solutions (FTTC etc.) over the 21CN network with the exception of the copper access layer. If the ADSL2+ service is being run on the old DSLAM's that they had out there then the only thing that I can think is that the go ATM to the BRAS and then into the 21CN cloud from there. All this is assumption currently but
Hope this helps
Infinidim :cool:
ADSL2+ is running off MSANs.
Indeed. Fig. 4. www.sinet.bt.com/511v1p2.pdf :cool:
Once they have written off the old DSLAM's then everybody I think will be either fibre (FTTC, etc.) or MSAN where they can't install fibre.
Infinidim :cool:
I will keep this forum updated on how this progresses.
Infinidim :cool:
I know some of the answers you want.
What you have been told by the Newcastle Support Team is true. 256 boxes cannot handle the new Multicast channels. But the 512's can.
Not exactly free though is it? Any other queries, infinidim?
The idea is that TV connect will be rolled out to all exchanges where 21C is enabled. What I meant though is all the FTTC headends will be enabled for TV Connect first (it makes more economic sense as just think how many fibre cabinets, and therefore customers would be connected to one headend). They will be added first then the smaller, non headend exchanges can be added. BT's insistence on Infinity for TV is a bandwidth issue, as 16Mb is needed to stream two HD channels.
Thanks VisionMan. I am still fighting the "dark empire" even though I used to work for them to get BT TV on a Vision box (or something that BT will support for a while) that I don't have to pay "the earth" to get.:D
Infinidim :cool:
Completely agree.
Infinidim :cool:
Looks a good option.
Do you know of any issues with the TalkTalk YouView box?
Infinidim :cool:
Thats interesting, as I thought it was 20 (10Mbps each). And, wrongly, BT's web pages incorrectly says 15Mbps, which I sent them an email about (but was ignored).
Yeah you're right looking at the document that was linked to earlier. The HD streams are 10Mbit each now. They were going to be 8Mbit each so something has changed (for the better though!)
I'm quite impressed with the specs for TV Connect, should produce some good looking video streams for both SD and HD. I haven't had a chance to see the results yet but I'm considering getting the BT YouView box as a second set top box (for the bedroom), to replace my BT Vision.
I hadn't previously read that document. So SD is 'transmitted' at 3Mbps. Thats a lot lower than I expected. Or have I read that wrong?
Oh - and is the above an Open Connect Network, for any ISP that wants it? And/or to allow a YouView box on a third party ISP's network to recieved BT Vision's VoD/ live channels?
Yes that's correct, 'transmitted' at 2.5Mbit or 3Mbit for SD. MPEG4 though so that should look good. The HD streams should look really good though at 10Mbit.
It is available from BT Wholesale to any company yes. No I've not seen anything that says third parties would be able to receive BT Vision's VoD or live channels. Each provider would have their own live channels and VoD.
Using MPEG4 (which BTV boxes use anyway) the SD picture quality should be above that of Freeview. And the HD picture quality should be above that available on satellite HD too. Nice.
He measured 3.5Mbps for SD and 9Mbps for HD. Because error correction adds to the basic MPEG4/h.264/AVC bandwidth, that implies that BT are currently using the 7.5Mbps HD variant, not the 10Mbps. For SD, the jury is out: it could be either 2.5 or 3Mbps but as the 2.5Mbps uses reduced horizontal resolution, hopefully it is the 3Mbps version, which should produce a very good picture. But I will not be happy unless they use the 10Mbps version for HD, when it comes to Youview. That's roughly what ITV HD are using (fixed bitrate like BT will use).
That's a shame if BT Retail themselves are using the 7.5Mbit version. I was hopeful they'd want to set a good example.
For SD in the Supplier Information Notice (SIN for short) they state " MPEG4 [2] Part 10/AVC Main Profile Level 3 " for encoding format and " 625/50 I " for Video format and CBR bitrate of 2.5 Mbit/s for SD "Regular" (three quarter horizontal resolution) but 3.0 Mbit/s for SD "Premium" (full horizontal resolution). Audio is "128 kbit/s " bitrate, "HE-AAC v1 " encoding and " Stereo " for format.
Hope this helps.
Infinidim :cool:
The poster on the other forum could check which SD format BT Retail are using by checking the horizontal resolution. That would tell us if it is the regular or premium profile. As I say I don't have those channels yet so I can't check.
No idea, I guess so. But the third party has to stream it to BT at the same rate, regardless of the 'transmission' profile.
I guess BT charge different rates for the two transmission profiles, reflecting their own bandwidth costs. Sadly I don't ink many, if any ISPs will go for the premium options.