Phone socket not working

PartyanimalPartyanimal Posts: 1,261
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I've just moved into a new property. My landline/broadband services have just been activated (am with BT). I have 3 sockets for phone use distributed around the property, but only 2 are working. The socket that isnt working looks like this:-

[URL="http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/151613220778-0-1/s-l1000.jpg"[/URL]

I've not come across this type of socket until now. The TV (freeview) part of the socket is working fine. I've unscrewed the faceplate and there are a couple of wires (both coloured orange and white) connected to the back of the phone socket. When I plug my phone into it there is no signal. Does anyone know why this phone socket is not working? Do I need a particular type of phone?

The previous owners' service provider was sky and claims this phone socket was working for them.

Comments

  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,206
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    Assuming that the phone works satisfactorily with the linebox / master socket, it seems to be just a wiring fault.

    You'll need to check for all the obvious things such as wires not being connected to the correct terminals, wires not having been fully pressed into Insulation Displacement Connectors, broken wires, faulty microfilter etc. A multimeter may be useful to check for 50V DC when off hook.

    If all else fails, just use a cordless phone !
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    I've just moved into a new property. My landline/broadband services have just been activated (am with BT). I have 3 sockets for phone use distributed around the property, but only 2 are working. The socket that isnt working looks like this:-

    [URL="http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/151613220778-0-1/s-l1000.jpg"[/URL]

    I've not come across this type of socket until now. The TV (freeview) part of the socket is working fine. I've unscrewed the faceplate and there are a couple of wires (both coloured orange and white) connected to the back of the phone socket. When I plug my phone into it there is no signal. Does anyone know why this phone socket is not working? Do I need a particular type of phone?

    The previous owners' service provider was sky and claims this phone socket was working for them.
    Which terminals were the wires connected to? It is more usual for the blue and white pair to be used for the phone line and the orange and white pair for other purposes.

    The socket will likely have four terminals (numbered rather confusingly from 2 to 5!). There should be one colour matched pair on 2 and 5 which are the line, usually the blue pair. Terminal 3 may be wired with one of the orange pair which is the "bell wire". 4 is less often wired as it is an earth connection which isn't often used in domestic installations.

    So if there are no wires on 2 and 5 that explains why the line is dead. If the orange pair are on 2 and 5 then you need to try and trace the wire back to the master. If the master is an NTE 5 type with a two part faceplate you can remove the lower section and on the back of the removable section are another set of terminals to which the extensions should be wired, like in this image.

    https://eigde79682.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/14401iC4713B111DBEF13A?v=v2

    If there are no orange wires on 2 and 5 then the extension is not wired back to the master or has been incorrectly wired somewhere. It is possible that the sockets are wired in a "daisy chain", ie master to extn 1, extn 1 to extn 2, extn 2 to extn 3. So you may have to have a look behind the other two extensions to try and find where this non-working extension is wired to.

    Though without the correct skills and tools to figure out what is wired to where it can be difficult to work out where the various wires go to.
  • PartyanimalPartyanimal Posts: 1,261
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    Many thx for your responses. The faceplate is a Triax, part no. 304114, and has 6 terminals. There are two pairs of orange/white&orange wires connected. The orange pair are connected to terminal 3, the white&orange are connected to terminal 4. Terminals 1,2,5&6 are blank. There are also a couple of blue wires behind the faceplate which are separately "capped off", i.e they each emerge from the insulating sheathe, connect to a small metal connector, and return back into the sheathe. Presumably then, this is a slave socket daisy-chained from one of the other sockets elsewhere in the property?

    If the previous property owner is to be believed, then they say this socket was working when they lived here so I'm disinclined to believe there is an internal wiring fault. BT's call centre (bless 'em) suggested I might need a "different type of phone"?? (although, of course, my handset works perfectly well when plugged into the two other sockets. They are single faceplates - not the NTE5 stylie ). Is there any possibility that the switch over from the previous service provider has not been properly implemented, or is the previous owner telling me porkies. Do I then need to connect up the blue wires?
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    Many thx for your responses. The faceplate is a Triax, part no. 304114, and has 6 terminals. There are two pairs of orange/white&orange wires connected. The orange pair are connected to terminal 3, the white&orange are connected to terminal 4. Terminals 1,2,5&6 are blank. There are also a couple of blue wires behind the faceplate which are separately "capped off", i.e they each emerge from the insulating sheathe, connect to a small metal connector, and return back into the sheathe. Presumably then, this is a slave socket daisy-chained from one of the other sockets elsewhere in the property?

    If the previous property owner is to be believed, then they say this socket was working when they lived here so I'm disinclined to believe there is an internal wiring fault. BT's call centre (bless 'em) suggested I might need a "different type of phone"?? (although, of course, my handset works perfectly well when plugged into the two other sockets. They are single faceplates - not the NTE5 stylie ). Is there any possibility that the switch over from the previous service provider has not been properly implemented, or is the previous owner telling me porkies. Do I then need to connect up the blue wires?
    Well there's the reason it don't work. :) There is no line connected! If terminals 2 and 5 have nothing connected to them then you can empty every known (and unknown :) ) high street and online shop of their entire stock of phones and you will never find one that will work!

    The blue pair I suspect should be connected to terminals 2 and 5.

    Not sure what this metal connector of which you speak is all about. It might help if you could post a photo of the back of the socket showing this connector (can't post images direct to DS but chose an image hosting site and link to it here).

    Are there perhaps a total of four blue and white wires? Could this connector be connecting the two Blue with white stripes together and the two white with blue stripe together? If so then the TV socket is socket B in a chain of A -> B -> C. Originally the two pairs of blue wires would have been on terminals 2 and 5. Removing them both would isolate Socket B but also isolate Socket C as well. So the wire coming in from Socket A was connected to the wire going out to Socket C so Socket C continues working.

    But without being able to see the actual wiring it's difficult to be precise. Which is why some piccies would help :)
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,206
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    Yes, chrisjr is right.

    Probably the quickest way to solve the problem is to look behind the panel with the TV socket for a pair of wires with 50V DC on. Just connect them to terminals 2 and 5 and it's job done ! Of course, you need to make sure that you don't break any connection on to other sockets.

    Extension wiring is much easier than it used to be. Terminal 3 was once the bell wire but this is no longer needed unless you have a very old phone (e.g. rotary dial type 706/ 746) and even then your microfilter would contain the capacitor to provide the necessary functionality.

    In fact, broadband is better without the bell wire connected, and modern lineboxes have a faceplate that contains a choke (circled) to remedy this. If you have broadband but an older master socket then it's often worthwhile disconnecting the bell wire and just wiring a pair through to 2 and 5 on the extension sockets.
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    Gerry1 wrote: »
    Yes, chrisjr is right.

    Probably the quickest way to solve the problem is to look behind the panel with the TV socket for a pair of wires with 50V DC on. Just connect them to terminals 2 and 5 and it's job done ! Of course, you need to make sure that you don't break any connection on to other sockets.

    Extension wiring is much easier than it used to be. Terminal 3 was once the bell wire but this is no longer needed unless you have a very old phone (e.g. rotary dial type 706/ 746) and even then your microfilter would contain the capacitor to provide the necessary functionality.

    In fact, broadband is better without the bell wire connected, and modern lineboxes have a faceplate that contains a choke (circled) to remedy this. If you have broadband but an older master socket then it's often worthwhile disconnecting the bell wire and just wiring a pair through to 2 and 5 on the extension sockets.

    BiB. If the extensions have been wired up "correctly" that will be the blue pair. And if as I speculated the "TV" socket is the middle one of a chain of three then there could be two pairs of blue wires. Both pairs would need to be connected to ensure that all the sockets work.

    That's why it would be a big help to have some pictures of the socket and the wiring so we can offer more specific advice.
  • PartyanimalPartyanimal Posts: 1,261
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    Here's the back of the faceplate - I hope it's clear enough...

    [URL="[IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/2cfpdt2.jpg[/IMG]"]2cfpdt2.jpg[/URL]

    The terminals on the left are numbered 3,4,1 and on the right 2,5,6 (as you look at the picture, top down). The orange wires are in T3, orange & white in T4. "Floating" above are two further pairs - blue (with interspersed white) & white (with interspersed blue). The blue/white pairs, and the white/blue pairs, are bridged via a small metal connector inside the plastic caps.

    The front of the faceplate looks like this:-

    http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/151613220778-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

    I don't use the Satellite feeds, just Freeview from the "TV" socket.
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    OK so as I thought someone has detached the line from the socket and it is Socket B in an A -> B -> C chain,

    What you need is a tool like this

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/mercury-710-289UK-Punchdown-Idc-Tool/dp/B0012IKL7Q/

    then chop the connector blocks off the ends of each pair of blue/white wires. Lay one of the white with blue strip wires into the slot on terminal 2 (don't strip any insulation off the wire.) Use the tool to push the wire firmly down into the terminal, the tool clicks when it's done. Lay the second white/blue wire into the same slot as the first and push it down on top of the first.

    Repeat for the two blue with white stripe wires but this time on terminal 5

    Just be aware that the punchdown tool has cutting blades to trim the excess wire poking out of the terminal so make sure you get it the right way round!

    If you do it right then the socket should work once more.
  • Dave_LeeDave_Lee Posts: 107
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    How has the telephone cable been connected at BT socket?, can you take a pic.
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    Dave_Lee wrote: »
    How has the telephone cable been connected at BT socket?, can you take a pic.

    To be honest I don't think that is relevant. It is pretty obvious what's been done from the first pic in the post above.

    Not exactly sure why it was done rather than just leave the socket connected and never plug a phone into it.
  • LION8TIGERLION8TIGER Posts: 8,484
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    chrisjr wrote: »
    To be honest I don't think that is relevant. It is pretty obvious what's been done from the first pic in the post above.

    Not exactly sure why it was done rather than just leave the socket connected and never plug a phone into it.

    Maybe a drastic way of making sure that the Sky box never got connected to the phone line ?
  • PartyanimalPartyanimal Posts: 1,261
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    chrisjr wrote: »
    OK so as I thought someone has detached the line from the socket and it is Socket B in an A -> B -> C chain,

    What you need is a tool like this

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/mercury-710-289UK-Punchdown-Idc-Tool/dp/B0012IKL7Q/

    then chop the connector blocks off the ends of each pair of blue/white wires. Lay one of the white with blue strip wires into the slot on terminal 2 (don't strip any insulation off the wire.) Use the tool to push the wire firmly down into the terminal, the tool clicks when it's done. Lay the second white/blue wire into the same slot as the first and push it down on top of the first.

    Repeat for the two blue with white stripe wires but this time on terminal 5

    Just be aware that the punchdown tool has cutting blades to trim the excess wire poking out of the terminal so make sure you get it the right way round!

    If you do it right then the socket should work once more.

    Chris (and others) - many thanks for your advice. I have ordered the tool you referred to and will advise outcome. One question (just to confirm something you mentioned above) - when using the tool to push the wiring into the terminals does this action automatically scalp the insulation layer to expose the wire core?
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,206
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    Yes it does, you don't need to strip anything. Stripping a wire with sidecutters or similar tools is likely to nick the wire and can lead to subsequent noisy connections or even total failure.

    The Insulation Displacement system does what it says on the tin and is far quicker than using screw connectors.

    http://www.engineerlive.com/content/insulation-displacement-connectors

    http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/Installation/installation.html
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    Chris (and others) - many thanks for your advice. I have ordered the tool you referred to and will advise outcome. One question (just to confirm something you mentioned above) - when using the tool to push the wiring into the terminals does this action automatically scalp the insulation layer to expose the wire core?

    The insulation layer is not removed at all. In fact it is necessary to the security of the termination that it is not removed.

    The terminal has a metal contact inside which is slotted. As the wire is forced down into the slot in the metal contact the contact slices into the insulation to touch the copper core of the wire. The insulation actually helps the wire stay in place. If you remove it and just push the copper core into the slot it can fall out :o

    You have to push down reasonably hard on the terminal so helps if the socket panel is sat on a solid surface. The tool I linked to has a spring loaded head that gives the wire a punch as you press down, you will hear a definite click as it does so. Also to ensure a good joint press down a second time to make sure the wire is properly pushed home. Make sure also that the wire is laid fully across the slot in the terminal with a short bit sticking out the opposite side of the terminal. If not you can push the wire down and completely miss the metal contact.

    And as I posted make sure you use the tool the right way round! It has a cutter on one edge that trims the excess wire on the outside of the terminal. Don't use it the wrong way round and cut the incoming side of the wire (been there, done that read the tee shirt :blush::D)
  • PartyanimalPartyanimal Posts: 1,261
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    Gerry1 wrote: »
    Yes it does, you don't need to strip anything. Stripping a wire with sidecutters or similar tools is likely to nick the wire and can lead to subsequent noisy connections or even total failure.

    The Insulation Displacement system does what it says on the tin and is far quicker than using screw connectors.

    Ok - thx Gerry.

    It would also seem that I've been misled by the previous property owners who claimed this socket was working!
  • Hank SchraderHank Schrader Posts: 1,438
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    LION8TIGER wrote: »
    Maybe a drastic way of making sure that the Sky box never got connected to the phone line ?

    It's possible the socket is faulty and was causing service issues. Those connectors behind the socket are crimps 8a which are used by Openreach.
  • chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    It's possible the socket is faulty and was causing service issues. Those connectors behind the socket are crimps 8a which are used by Openreach.

    In my experience Openreach would be more likely to isolate all extensions at the master rather than bother to try and find which extension was actually faulty and isolate just that one. It would be rare to find one who would go to that amount of trouble for a customer as technically their responsibility ends at the master. I've met more than my fair share of jobsworths over the years who would tell you to do one rather than lift a finger to track down a fault with an extension socket. :o:D
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