Respectfully disagree - it's entirely relevant - it offers an element of context: OP's version of events is based on the fear of an armed intruder.It would appear that in SA armed intruders (who are prepared to use their weapons) are not especially uncommon, - this latest tragedy gives some credence to that - which in turn makes the intruder-response argument of OP more understandable.
Also, a number of posters have speculated about why OP didn't realise that as the dogs weren't barking, an intruder was unlikely - in the case of Johan Kemp, both his dogs had been stabbed, so didn't bark to alert the family of the intruders. From what I have read elsewhere, killing/ poisoning/injuring family/guard dogs by intruders is not that uncommon. This detail (horribly illustrated in the Kemp case) might go some way to answer those questions/doubts people might have had over the dog-element of OP's case.
But this was a gated community with 20 foot high walls, topped with barbed wiring, with fingerprint recognition, the only way in.
The manager of the estate also said the last criminal activity to take place there was years ago, 2009 IIRC (would have to check) and that was a rogue guard. It was hardly your normal South African house with no/minimal security.
But it would have been so easy to establish there was no intruder in Reeva's case, if you believe his story.
I don't personally believe his story. But because of the situation in South Africa his defence may be able to portray his behaviour as reasonable .
I have posted before that it is very feasible that In South Africa the judge will give a verdict of culpable homicide. This, like murder, is a form of unlawful killing but the crucial difference is that if a person kills intentionally it is murder, whereas if he or she kills negligently it is culpable homicide.
The essential element of the crime is negligence, but before any court can make a finding of culpable homicide it must be proved that a reasonable man' in the position of the accused would have foreseen that death could result from his actions.
The test for negligence is an objective one. For example, if it is shown that a man ought to have foreseen the possibility of killing someone when he fired a gun, negligence is present and he is guilty of culpable homicide.
The question of whether he ought to have foreseen the possible consequences of his actions are decided by reference to the 'reasonable man' the average prudent family man. The behaviour of the man accused of causing the death is objectively tested against what a ‘reasonable man' would do in the same circumstances
And the definition of 'a reasonable man' in South Africa may be different to what is considered reasonable in the United Kingdom.
But this was a gated community with 20 foot high walls, topped with barbed wiring, with fingerprint recognition, the only way in.
The manager of the estate also said the last criminal activity to take place there was years ago, 2009 IIRC (would have to check) and that was a rogue guard. It was hardly your normal South African house with no/minimal security.
Most houses in Gauteng have high walls, topped by electric fencing, panic buttons and armed response.
There is always the possibility of live in domestic staff being intimidated in to helping intruders. And there are many stories of rogue guards.
Our house over there is in a small walled complex but intruders broke through the bottom of the wall alongside the river during the night while we were out, and got in to the house through a tiny upstairs loo window. The only window without burglar guards.
Granted we do not have guards at the gate. We open the main electronic gate with a device, drive the car in to an enclosed area, wait for the first gate to shut automatically before opening the second gate that allows us to drive in to the main complex.
Most houses in Gauteng have high walls, topped by electric fencing, panic buttons and armed response.
There is always the possibility of live in domestic staff being intimidated in to helping intruders. And there are many stories of rogue guards.
Our house over there is in a small walled complex but intruders broke through the bottom of the wall alongside the river during the night while we were out, and got in to the house through a tiny upstairs loo window. The only window without burglar guards.
Granted we do not have guards at the gate. We open the main electronic gate with a device, drive the car in to an enclosed area, wait for the first gate to shut automatically before opening the second gate that allows us to drive in to the main complex.
Sorry, didn't realise that.
What's your gut feeling about the case. CH most likely? Is there many stories like Pistorius'?
I did read somewhere that it's a daily occurence almost, and it's only news because of who it is.
Respectfully disagree - it's entirely relevant - it offers an element of context: OP's version of events is based on the fear of an armed intruder.It would appear that in SA armed intruders (who are prepared to use their weapons) are not especially uncommon, - this latest tragedy gives some credence to that - which in turn makes the intruder-response argument of OP more understandable.
Also, a number of posters have speculated about why OP didn't realise that as the dogs weren't barking, an intruder was unlikely - in the case of Johan Kemp, both his dogs had been stabbed, so didn't bark to alert the family of the intruders. From what I have read elsewhere, killing/ poisoning/injuring family/guard dogs by intruders is not that uncommon. This detail (horribly illustrated in the Kemp case) might go some way to answer those questions/doubts people might have had over the dog-element of OP's case.
Sorry, but that doesn't make it relevant.
We're all perfectly aware of the level of gun crime in SA.
OP's defence is based on the context of this gun crime.
That does not make an individual, completely separate crime, in completely different circumstances relevant to OP's case.
According to the reports OP's complex had not had a break-in in 5 years.
Furthermore, there was no basis for his claimed fear of an intruder.
A arguably more relevant context, given the facts of the case, is the high level of women killed by their partner or relative in SA - 3 per day.
JOHANNESBURG - Oscar Pistorius wants to train again and recently went back to visit his regular track in South Africa's capital, the double-amputee athlete's agent told The Associated Press on Wednesday.
There was still no decision on an exact time-frame for the multiple Paralympic champion's return to regular running, but Pistorius told his agent Peet van Zyl and longtime coach Ampie Louw at a Tuesday meeting that he was "definitely keen to get back on track to resume training," the agent said.
"When, exactly, is his choice," Van Zyl told the AP in Wednesday's telephone interview.
Pistorius had also revisited his practice track in Pretoria on March 24, although he didn't train, the agent said.
Pistorius last trained on a track over two months ago, and his last competitive race was his victory in the 400 meters final at the London Paralympics in September last year.
Van Zyl said Pistorius wasn't ready "mentally" to compete yet after he was charged with murder in the Feb. 14 shooting death of girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp at his home.
"From our meeting, it was clear and evident it's going to take some time for him (to be ready to compete)," Van Zyl said. "He's trying to process this whole ordeal."
Pistorius had also told his agent and coach that he would only consider going to the world championships in Moscow in August if he was in the right shape to run at the top level again.
"He (Pistorius) stated to me clearly yesterday, for the world champs, first he needs to be in some form," Van Zyl said.
Van Zyl would approach race promoters regarding a return to competition for the world's most famous disabled athlete only when Pistorius indicated that he was ready, he said. The agent had not been in contact with any meet organizers yet.
"There are sensitivity issues, but at the end of the day it's these guys' (race organizers) decisions," Van Zyl said.
Still, Pistorius' first significant move toward a return to the track on his carbon fiber running blades came at the meeting with his management team at the home of his uncle, Arnold Pistorius, on Tuesday night. The 26-year-old Olympian has been staying at the house in the eastern suburbs of Pretoria since he was freed on bail on Feb. 22.
Pistorius denies murdering Steenkamp and says he shot her accidentally after mistaking her for an intruder in his house. Prosecutors have charged him with premeditated murder and say he intentionally shot Steenkamp multiple times through a door inside his bathroom after the couple argued in the early hours of Valentine's Day.
His next court appearance is June 4, where prosecutors aim to serve indictments. Pistorius' murder trial may not begin until the end of the year, or even early 2014.
Pistorius had visited his training track at the University of Pretoria with some other athletes just under two weeks ago, but hadn't worked out properly, only doing a little jogging, Van Zyl said. Although a high court ruling last week eased Pistorius' bail restrictions on appeal and allowed him to travel to compete and earn a living, Van Zyl said it would still take time to be ready for track meets.
"He hasn't trained at all since the incident and you can't expect him to go into competition. More important, mentally he is not there yet, he is some way off," the agent said.
But longtime coach Louw, who discovered the double amputee's talent for running when he was still a teenager, was eager for the athlete to get back to training to help his mental process, and Pistorius' return to track may not be far off.
I'm not even convinced on the thought of him needing to compete to raise funds. He's been on multimillion dollar sponsorship deals for years and probably has a number of properties, cars, race horses etc. Not to mention i'd imagine a significant amount of prize money. I know he'd have been living a certain lifestyle with regards the money and fame, but even the size of the property he is staying at now makes me think none of his family are hardly not well off.
From a few days ago to have had 'no intention' in starting training, when it turns out he'd already been jogging on the track. To now already talking about race meets. It stinks of getting 'back to normal' for 'poor' Oscar.
Telegraph Sport has learnt that an internal report circulated within senior ranks at the IPC, the world governing body for Paralympic sport, has cleared the athlete, who is accused of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp on Feb 14 at his home in Pretoria, to run at the event in Lyon in July.
It is understood that Peet van Zyl, Pistorius’s agent, will be notified that the athlete will be free to register for the event, either for South Africa, or as an individual. The belief within the IPC is that Pistorius should not be stopped from competing before his trial.
Picture just released but dated from 24/3. His uncle said last week (on the 28th) he hadn't been training and hasn't gone out into the public since he killed her.
Picture just released but dated from 24/3. His uncle said last week (on the 28th) he hadn't been training and hasn't gone out into the public since he killed her.
The article does seem to have two different schools down for where the pupils were from. I think his uncle meant that he hadn't been in a in public very visibly.
I forget that he was on the balcony when he heard the noise. Maybe he thought that Reeva had gotten up to call the police? But if he did he should really have said that in his affidavit... full statement
" Arnold Pistorius said it had been the first time Oscar had been out with friends since the murder, but given the reaction, they had advised him not to do so again.
"These reports are a rude reminder that Oscar’s every move is under intense scrutiny by the media and, as a family, we have advised him to find other ways of coping with his sense of isolation," he said. "
What reaction did they expect - banners flying, a few slaps on the back or a "pity party"? ...
" Arnold Pistorius said it had been the first time Oscar had been out with friends since the murder, but given the reaction, they had advised him not to do so again.
"These reports are a rude reminder that Oscar’s every move is under intense scrutiny by the media and, as a family, we have advised him to find other ways of coping with his sense of isolation," he said. "
What reaction did they expect - banners flying, a few slaps on the back or a "pity party"? ...
He's getting on with his life now, but wasn't there something coming up in June?...nah, nothing important.
" Arnold Pistorius said it had been the first time Oscar had been out with friends since the murder, but given the reaction, they had advised him not to do so again.
"These reports are a rude reminder that Oscar’s every move is under intense scrutiny by the media and, as a family, we have advised him to find other ways of coping with his sense of isolation," he said. "
What reaction did they expect - banners flying, a few slaps on the back or a "pity party"? ...
You really couldn't make it up could you.
The fact they state that the reports 'were a rude reminder that he is under intense scrutiny' and he 'needs family advice' that it is inapproppriate to be seen out partying, speaks volumes for him. I thought the reminder that he killed his girlfriend would have been enough, but perhaps not.
I think he genuinely thinks people still hold him in the same regard as before.
I must say I started posting on this thread as a big fan of OP and I still think his athletic career is to be admired, but he's just an absolute idiot isn't he?! Even if Reeva obviously wasn't the love of his life or even if it was all a tragic accident, he still killed a human being. There should be more respect for a human life.
Comments
Hmmm...
But this was a gated community with 20 foot high walls, topped with barbed wiring, with fingerprint recognition, the only way in.
The manager of the estate also said the last criminal activity to take place there was years ago, 2009 IIRC (would have to check) and that was a rogue guard. It was hardly your normal South African house with no/minimal security.
I have posted before that it is very feasible that In South Africa the judge will give a verdict of culpable homicide. This, like murder, is a form of unlawful killing but the crucial difference is that if a person kills intentionally it is murder, whereas if he or she kills negligently it is culpable homicide.
The essential element of the crime is negligence, but before any court can make a finding of culpable homicide it must be proved that a reasonable man' in the position of the accused would have foreseen that death could result from his actions.
The test for negligence is an objective one. For example, if it is shown that a man ought to have foreseen the possibility of killing someone when he fired a gun, negligence is present and he is guilty of culpable homicide.
The question of whether he ought to have foreseen the possible consequences of his actions are decided by reference to the 'reasonable man' the average prudent family man. The behaviour of the man accused of causing the death is objectively tested against what a ‘reasonable man' would do in the same circumstances
And the definition of 'a reasonable man' in South Africa may be different to what is considered reasonable in the United Kingdom.
There is always the possibility of live in domestic staff being intimidated in to helping intruders. And there are many stories of rogue guards.
Our house over there is in a small walled complex but intruders broke through the bottom of the wall alongside the river during the night while we were out, and got in to the house through a tiny upstairs loo window. The only window without burglar guards.
Granted we do not have guards at the gate. We open the main electronic gate with a device, drive the car in to an enclosed area, wait for the first gate to shut automatically before opening the second gate that allows us to drive in to the main complex.
Sorry, didn't realise that.
What's your gut feeling about the case. CH most likely? Is there many stories like Pistorius'?
I did read somewhere that it's a daily occurence almost, and it's only news because of who it is.
We're all perfectly aware of the level of gun crime in SA.
OP's defence is based on the context of this gun crime.
That does not make an individual, completely separate crime, in completely different circumstances relevant to OP's case.
According to the reports OP's complex had not had a break-in in 5 years.
Furthermore, there was no basis for his claimed fear of an intruder.
A arguably more relevant context, given the facts of the case, is the high level of women killed by their partner or relative in SA - 3 per day.
I would very much doubt the circumstances of this case is a daily occurrence.
I meant the number of women killed by their partner and the number of armed intruder cases like he claimed.
Not the situation he actually found himself in, but the one he 'thought' he did.
There was still no decision on an exact time-frame for the multiple Paralympic champion's return to regular running, but Pistorius told his agent Peet van Zyl and longtime coach Ampie Louw at a Tuesday meeting that he was "definitely keen to get back on track to resume training," the agent said.
"When, exactly, is his choice," Van Zyl told the AP in Wednesday's telephone interview.
Pistorius had also revisited his practice track in Pretoria on March 24, although he didn't train, the agent said.
Pistorius last trained on a track over two months ago, and his last competitive race was his victory in the 400 meters final at the London Paralympics in September last year.
Van Zyl said Pistorius wasn't ready "mentally" to compete yet after he was charged with murder in the Feb. 14 shooting death of girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp at his home.
"From our meeting, it was clear and evident it's going to take some time for him (to be ready to compete)," Van Zyl said. "He's trying to process this whole ordeal."
Pistorius had also told his agent and coach that he would only consider going to the world championships in Moscow in August if he was in the right shape to run at the top level again.
"He (Pistorius) stated to me clearly yesterday, for the world champs, first he needs to be in some form," Van Zyl said.
Van Zyl would approach race promoters regarding a return to competition for the world's most famous disabled athlete only when Pistorius indicated that he was ready, he said. The agent had not been in contact with any meet organizers yet.
"There are sensitivity issues, but at the end of the day it's these guys' (race organizers) decisions," Van Zyl said.
Still, Pistorius' first significant move toward a return to the track on his carbon fiber running blades came at the meeting with his management team at the home of his uncle, Arnold Pistorius, on Tuesday night. The 26-year-old Olympian has been staying at the house in the eastern suburbs of Pretoria since he was freed on bail on Feb. 22.
Pistorius denies murdering Steenkamp and says he shot her accidentally after mistaking her for an intruder in his house. Prosecutors have charged him with premeditated murder and say he intentionally shot Steenkamp multiple times through a door inside his bathroom after the couple argued in the early hours of Valentine's Day.
His next court appearance is June 4, where prosecutors aim to serve indictments. Pistorius' murder trial may not begin until the end of the year, or even early 2014.
Pistorius had visited his training track at the University of Pretoria with some other athletes just under two weeks ago, but hadn't worked out properly, only doing a little jogging, Van Zyl said. Although a high court ruling last week eased Pistorius' bail restrictions on appeal and allowed him to travel to compete and earn a living, Van Zyl said it would still take time to be ready for track meets.
"He hasn't trained at all since the incident and you can't expect him to go into competition. More important, mentally he is not there yet, he is some way off," the agent said.
But longtime coach Louw, who discovered the double amputee's talent for running when he was still a teenager, was eager for the athlete to get back to training to help his mental process, and Pistorius' return to track may not be far off.
From a few days ago to have had 'no intention' in starting training, when it turns out he'd already been jogging on the track. To now already talking about race meets. It stinks of getting 'back to normal' for 'poor' Oscar.
Telegraph Sport has learnt that an internal report circulated within senior ranks at the IPC, the world governing body for Paralympic sport, has cleared the athlete, who is accused of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp on Feb 14 at his home in Pretoria, to run at the event in Lyon in July.
It is understood that Peet van Zyl, Pistorius’s agent, will be notified that the athlete will be free to register for the event, either for South Africa, or as an individual. The belief within the IPC is that Pistorius should not be stopped from competing before his trial.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/9969992/Oscar-Pistorius-to-get-the-all-clear-to-run-at-the-IPC-World-Athletics-Championships-in-France-in-July.html
(Edited for better link)
Picture just released but dated from 24/3. His uncle said last week (on the 28th) he hadn't been training and hasn't gone out into the public since he killed her.
The article does seem to have two different schools down for where the pupils were from. I think his uncle meant that he hadn't been in a in public very visibly.
full statement
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/9993294/Oscar-Pistorius-strenuously-denies-downing-drinks-and-flirting.html
" Arnold Pistorius said it had been the first time Oscar had been out with friends since the murder, but given the reaction, they had advised him not to do so again.
"These reports are a rude reminder that Oscar’s every move is under intense scrutiny by the media and, as a family, we have advised him to find other ways of coping with his sense of isolation," he said. "
What reaction did they expect - banners flying, a few slaps on the back or a "pity party"? ...
He's getting on with his life now, but wasn't there something coming up in June?...nah, nothing important.
A mere inconvenience
Hmm I did wonder whilst reading the article...
You really couldn't make it up could you.
The fact they state that the reports 'were a rude reminder that he is under intense scrutiny' and he 'needs family advice' that it is inapproppriate to be seen out partying, speaks volumes for him. I thought the reminder that he killed his girlfriend would have been enough, but perhaps not.
I think he genuinely thinks people still hold him in the same regard as before.