Hello - Hospital - Seriously unwell - need someone to listen to their fears and respond - not some woolly thinking about God will take care of you....
Need I say more?
You might want to read the posts that lead up to that comment, as your "really thick" remark is just a teeny bit ironic, seeing as you've completely misunderstood the point being made.
Hello - Hospital - Seriously unwell - need someone to listen to their fears and respond - not some woolly thinking about God will take care of you....
Need I say more?
Well thank you for that comment and here I was thinking we were all adults having an adult conversation about this - whereas we are obviously name calling in the play ground. :rolleyes:
Chaplains aren't actually (qualified) counsellors, are they? I don't think they'd claim to be. Counselling is actually a skill, and counselling while being considerate of people's religious beliefs or lack of them even more so. It's immensely arrogant to think that non-Christians should be happy with a Christian chaplain who avoids talking about Christianity to them - giving religious help is, after all, the only thing they're trained in. A Christian chaplain minus the Christianity is, at best, someone nice having a chat with you. And I don't think I want to pay for that - I'd rather pay for actual counsellors, if anything.
Chaplains aren't actually (qualified) counsellors, are they? I don't think they'd claim to be. Counselling is actually a skill, and counselling while being considerate of people's religious beliefs or lack of them even more so. It's immensely arrogant to think that non-Christians should be happy with a Christian chaplain who avoids talking about Christianity to them - giving religious help is, after all, the only thing they're trained in. A Christian chaplain minus the Christianity is, at best, someone nice having a chat with you. And I don't think I want to pay for that - I'd rather pay for actual counsellors, if anything.
From what I have seen of hospital chaplains they are quite different from vicars and may well be trained in counseling, they aren't however really providing counseling it's more to do with comfort and most human beings are able to (if they can empathise) provide that. What a chaplain can do is also conduct religious services for Christians who need them.
Chaplains aren't actually (qualified) counsellors, are they? I don't think they'd claim to be. Counselling is actually a skill, and counselling while being considerate of people's religious beliefs or lack of them even more so. It's immensely arrogant to think that non-Christians should be happy with a Christian chaplain who avoids talking about Christianity to them - giving religious help is, after all, the only thing they're trained in. A Christian chaplain minus the Christianity is, at best, someone nice having a chat with you. And I don't think I want to pay for that - I'd rather pay for actual counsellors, if anything.
You do need professional qualifications to work as a NHS chaplain, and part of the job description from the NHS website states:
"Be impartial and accessible to persons of all faith communities and none and facilitate spiritual and religious care of all kinds;"
So they are qualified, and they are not required to provide councilling services regardless of the patients faith (or lack of).
You do need professional qualifications to work as a NHS chaplain, ,,,,,,,,.
usually; but it is not always compulsory.
Entry requirements
You will usually need a professional qualification, a specific vocational degree or general degree, or the equivalent. You will also require a satisfactory recommendation and authorisation by your faith community to gain entry. Requirements may vary between different employers.
That makes no sense. What additional training would a trained counciller need to not bring faith into a discussion?
Of course it does. People of no faith can have particular problems and/or issues to deal with when faced with illness and death. Why champion the needs of religion, or even a particular religion, but ignore the needs of atheists?
My point re: semantics was that we seem to both agree that councillors provide a useful service in hospitals so if you don't have religious councillors then you still have to pay a wage to non-religious councillors.
Therefore, there is no money to be saved here, and no real advantages or disadvantages to either approach, other than with your option there people who would like a chaplain to talk to them rather than a generic councillor would be denied that opportunity unless an external member of the church pays them a visit.
There's a major advantage - we all pay for a service we can all use.
That doesn't make any sense what additional help would an atheist need ?
I'm not actually arguing for atheist counsellors (you're quoting a response to a particular point) but is it really so hard to imagine that atheists might have particular emotional issues that need support from somone who knows how they feel?
From what I have seen of hospital chaplains they are quite different from vicars and may well be trained in counseling, they aren't however really providing counseling it's more to do with comfort and most human beings are able to (if they can empathise) provide that. What a chaplain can do is also conduct religious services for Christians who need them.
It's an interesting theory! You think basically anyone could provide comfort to dying people? I don't think I could
You do need professional qualifications to work as a NHS chaplain, and part of the job description from the NHS website states:
"Be impartial and accessible to persons of all faith communities and none and facilitate spiritual and religious care of all kinds;"
So they are qualified, and they are not required to provide councilling services regardless of the patients faith (or lack of).
You need chaplaincy qualifications, which aren't counselling qualifications. So they're basically providing sod-all to non-Christians except for a nice chat.
Of course it does. People of no faith can have particular problems and/or issues to deal with when faced with illness and death. Why champion the needs of religion, or even a particular religion, but ignore the needs of atheists?
There's a major advantage - we all pay for a service we can all use.
Atheists are not being ignored.
"Be impartial and accessible to persons of all faith communities and none and facilitate spiritual and religious care of all kinds;"
I'm not actually arguing for atheist counsellors (you're quoting a response to a particular point) but is it really so hard to imagine that atheists might have particular emotional issues that need support from somone who knows how they feel?
So are you saying that religious people obviously have their religion they want addressing in troubled times and because atheists do not have that they have something else in its' place instead
(I bet that does not make sense, i am trying to make it do so. i know what i am trying to say but it just is not coming out right)
Interesting view on hospital chaplains (and their job descriptions) by Dr Robert Tovold here.
I agree with this sentiment:
"I’m not saying that religion is all bad. Religion provides a genuine sense of community and support for some people, and given that, I would not be surprised to find that visits from religious colleagues or leaders could speed a person’s recovery. But by exactly the same logic, people who are passionate stamp collectors would likely benefit from visits by fellow enthusiasts. I’m all for trying to make everyone, religious or not, as comfortable as possible in hospitals. But the idea that religious communities should be privileged above secular ones must be challenged. Again it comes down to consistency – to a rejection of double standards. Let’s not have one rule for them, and one rule for us."
It's an interesting theory! You think basically anyone could provide comfort to dying people? I don't think I could
You need chaplaincy qualifications, which aren't counselling qualifications. So they're basically providing sod-all to non-Christians except for a nice chat.
Again, quoting the NHS:
"A chaplain is a trained religious clergy member who provides spiritual guidance for people in traditionally secular settings, such as a hospital."
So they are actually trained for the specific job being asked of them. True, many will have divinity degrees but they are trained to provide assistance for all. The word counciller is perhaps being misused here - they aren't being asked to provide psychiatric care as that word implies, simply just a friendly face to make hospital a less stressful experience.
It's an interesting theory! You think basically anyone could provide comfort to dying people? I don't think I could
You need chaplaincy qualifications, which aren't counselling qualifications. So they're basically providing sod-all to non-Christians except for a nice chat.
Don't put yourself down you just don't know you can because you have never had to do it.
"Be impartial and accessible to persons of all faith communities and none and facilitate spiritual and religious care of all kinds;"
I was addressing you. You appeared to be baffled that a special atheist counsellor might be of any use yet you champion religious chaplains.
As to your other point, while a Christian chaplain might be accessible to all, I'm willing to bet that most atheists and people of rather religions would prefer a non religious approach or one specific to their belief (or not) system.
So are you saying that religious people obviously have their religion they want addressing in troubled times and because atheists do not have that they have something else in its' place instead
(I bet that does not make sense, i am trying to make it do so. i know what i am trying to say but it just is not coming out right)
I'm saying that a secular counselling service would be a better use of (very limited) cash - we'd all pay for what we can all use.
I'm saying that a secular counselling service would be a better use of (very limited) cash - we'd all pay for what we can all use.
But if they didn't have a religious slant I can't see them being around for very long before they became part of all the cuts - being a religious chaplain will give some protection from that I would imagine.
I was addressing you. You appeared to be baffled that a special atheist counsellor might be of any use yet you champion religious chaplains.
As to your other point, while a Christian chaplain might be accessible to all, I'm willing to bet that most atheists and people of rather religions would prefer a non religious approach or one specific to their belief (or not) system.
Ok, apologies for the misunderstanding.
For the record, I'm an atheist. I'm not championing religious chaplains because they are religious. I'm saying that a chaplain provides both religious and non-religious support to those who want it. An atheist councillor can only provide non-religious support, therefore why not employ the person who can cover both bases?
Chaplains provide a highly valuable service. Hospitals are not and should not be simply about providing operations and drugs, but unfortunately doctors and nurses simply don't have the time to spend simply talking to every patient. So, if you get rid of chaplains you would still need to pay someone else to do exactly the same job.
I simply don't accept that the vast majority of people would really be bothered whether the guy they are having a chat to about how they are getting on believes in the same God as they do. The point is that someone is there to chat to, not whether they can quote from the same religious text as them.
That doesn't make any sense what additional help would an atheist need ?
Nothing additional perhaps, but it might be unnerving, in your time of need, to know that the guy giving you comfort may actually believe you will spend an eternity suffering in hell.
Aren't hospital chaplains sort of necessary ? I understand how people may oppose to things like faith schools and collective worship, but the NHS paying for hospital chaplains. Its sort of puzzling.
Comments
I wonder if that nice Mr Cameron will reinstate them? Should I hold my breath?
You might want to read the posts that lead up to that comment, as your "really thick" remark is just a teeny bit ironic, seeing as you've completely misunderstood the point being made.
Well thank you for that comment and here I was thinking we were all adults having an adult conversation about this - whereas we are obviously name calling in the play ground. :rolleyes:
From what I have seen of hospital chaplains they are quite different from vicars and may well be trained in counseling, they aren't however really providing counseling it's more to do with comfort and most human beings are able to (if they can empathise) provide that. What a chaplain can do is also conduct religious services for Christians who need them.
You do need professional qualifications to work as a NHS chaplain, and part of the job description from the NHS website states:
"Be impartial and accessible to persons of all faith communities and none and facilitate spiritual and religious care of all kinds;"
So they are qualified, and they are not required to provide councilling services regardless of the patients faith (or lack of).
usually; but it is not always compulsory.
Entry requirements
You will usually need a professional qualification, a specific vocational degree or general degree, or the equivalent. You will also require a satisfactory recommendation and authorisation by your faith community to gain entry. Requirements may vary between different employers.
Of course it does. People of no faith can have particular problems and/or issues to deal with when faced with illness and death. Why champion the needs of religion, or even a particular religion, but ignore the needs of atheists?
There's a major advantage - we all pay for a service we can all use.
I'm not actually arguing for atheist counsellors (you're quoting a response to a particular point) but is it really so hard to imagine that atheists might have particular emotional issues that need support from somone who knows how they feel?
You need chaplaincy qualifications, which aren't counselling qualifications. So they're basically providing sod-all to non-Christians except for a nice chat.
Atheists are not being ignored.
"Be impartial and accessible to persons of all faith communities and none and facilitate spiritual and religious care of all kinds;"
So are you saying that religious people obviously have their religion they want addressing in troubled times and because atheists do not have that they have something else in its' place instead
(I bet that does not make sense, i am trying to make it do so. i know what i am trying to say but it just is not coming out right)
I agree with this sentiment:
"I’m not saying that religion is all bad. Religion provides a genuine sense of community and support for some people, and given that, I would not be surprised to find that visits from religious colleagues or leaders could speed a person’s recovery. But by exactly the same logic, people who are passionate stamp collectors would likely benefit from visits by fellow enthusiasts. I’m all for trying to make everyone, religious or not, as comfortable as possible in hospitals. But the idea that religious communities should be privileged above secular ones must be challenged. Again it comes down to consistency – to a rejection of double standards. Let’s not have one rule for them, and one rule for us."
Again, quoting the NHS:
"A chaplain is a trained religious clergy member who provides spiritual guidance for people in traditionally secular settings, such as a hospital."
So they are actually trained for the specific job being asked of them. True, many will have divinity degrees but they are trained to provide assistance for all. The word counciller is perhaps being misused here - they aren't being asked to provide psychiatric care as that word implies, simply just a friendly face to make hospital a less stressful experience.
Don't put yourself down you just don't know you can because you have never had to do it.
I was addressing you. You appeared to be baffled that a special atheist counsellor might be of any use yet you champion religious chaplains.
As to your other point, while a Christian chaplain might be accessible to all, I'm willing to bet that most atheists and people of rather religions would prefer a non religious approach or one specific to their belief (or not) system.
So like bereavement and trauma counsellors?
But if they didn't have a religious slant I can't see them being around for very long before they became part of all the cuts - being a religious chaplain will give some protection from that I would imagine.
Ok, apologies for the misunderstanding.
For the record, I'm an atheist. I'm not championing religious chaplains because they are religious. I'm saying that a chaplain provides both religious and non-religious support to those who want it. An atheist councillor can only provide non-religious support, therefore why not employ the person who can cover both bases?
Chaplains provide a highly valuable service. Hospitals are not and should not be simply about providing operations and drugs, but unfortunately doctors and nurses simply don't have the time to spend simply talking to every patient. So, if you get rid of chaplains you would still need to pay someone else to do exactly the same job.
I simply don't accept that the vast majority of people would really be bothered whether the guy they are having a chat to about how they are getting on believes in the same God as they do. The point is that someone is there to chat to, not whether they can quote from the same religious text as them.
Nothing additional perhaps, but it might be unnerving, in your time of need, to know that the guy giving you comfort may actually believe you will spend an eternity suffering in hell.