I really didn't like the way that they kind of made out that being trans was the same as being mentally ill. but cece's acting was really great, i thought, which made it a lot better than it could have been. i'm just really pissed off that red coat AND black widow were sara harvey. and now i'm guessing that the rest of the show will be about sara trying to get her revenge and honestly i don't know if i'll watch. i'll probably catch the first episode and the last episode like i did this season.
I sort of guessed that Charles was trans once he'd been revealed because of the two dressed and the immediate thought was CeCe because it began with a C but I convinced myself it was wrong
Red coat/Black widow is just irritating, but I'm glad Sara isn't nice because then Emily would have stayed with her
I'm also disappointed that we didn't see Jason realising Charles was CeCe, that would have been hilarious
Overall, not decided how I feel. I thought the story was convincing, and I don't think it was anti-trans, I did feel sorry for CeCe as did the girls. We know Mr D was the one in the wrong and Mrs D didn't really help, although she did love her.
That was all a bit wtf! In some ways it was good, in others not so. I saw the Sara thing coming a mile off. Charles/CeCe just mashed my head, especially when you think if things like spkx has bought up.
On the whole I quite enjoyed the episode and did feel sorry for CeCe.
We weren't meant to like that Mr D in particular thought of Charles as mentally ill for wanting to be a girl. Think that was the whole point, the fact Charles/Charlotte spent most of her life in Radley when there was nothing wrong with her was the cause of the whole A game.
I think I am glad of a time jump. All the girls can go off to college and come back hopefully (!) a bit more mature and wiser. But they are bound to get sucked back into whatever this "he" who is coming is up to.
put it in tags seen as everyone else is, even though as it has aired, it is technically not a spoiler any more.
I think I'm done with the show, I think it should have ended with the A reveal and I've found the last couple of seasons boring, especially the 5th. But I say that and I'll probably be just as excited when it comes back
OMG. Looks like I'm in the minority but I absolutely loved this episode. The only thing is I felt like it could/should of been longer, the last 5 minutes on the roof, leaving and flashback felt really rushed. I'm also happy with how much was answered in this episode and the flashbacks were nice. The answered questions didn't feel rushed and they've still kept some unanswered.. Who killed Mrs D? How do Sara and CeCe know each other? Who killed Garett?
I like CeCe being Charles, really wasn't expecting it and after reading all the transgender theories online, I thought it would have been Bethany that was Charles. Didn't they say that Charles was in it from Season 1 though? CeCe didn't come in until what S4?
Nice twist with Sara being red coat/black widow, it was so obvious when she guessed the passcode and then didn't enter the room with them though that something was up with her. Makes her character a lot more interesting and it will be interesting to see where they take her next season. I still think it would have made more sense for Jenna to be red coat as she's been in it from the beginning, Sara only came in last season.
Loved the ending, the time jump definitely needed to happen. Can't wait for the winter premiere!!!!
I need to watch this episode again as it was all a lot to take in! Also I can't believe that Wren isn't involved somehow with this??!! Why is his name constantly being brought up still...
I didn't put my post in spoiler tags as the episode has aired now and I'm guessing everyone coming on this thread is up to date!
I actually quite enjoyed it. After seeing the first couple of minutes earlier this week I did think that A was
a girl - seeing the girls said "b*tch" about A. I had thought CeCe may be Charles, but give her relationship with Jason, I really didn't think they'd go there! Sara wasn't a shock, for the time being I'll assume they met in Radley
Lots of questions still left but I'm sure they'll be answered at some point!
OMG. Looks like I'm in the minority but I absolutely loved this episode. The only thing is I felt like it could/should of been longer, the last 5 minutes on the roof, leaving and flashback felt really rushed. I'm also happy with how much was answered in this episode and the flashbacks were nice. The answered questions didn't feel rushed and they've still kept some unanswered.. Who killed Mrs D? How do Sara and CeCe know each other? Who killed Garett?
I like CeCe being Charles, really wasn't expecting it and after reading all the transgender theories online, I thought it would have been Bethany that was Charles. Didn't they say that Charles was in it from Season 1 though? CeCe didn't come in until what S4?
Nice twist with Sara being red coat/black widow, it was so obvious when she guessed the passcode and then didn't enter the room with them though that something was up with her. Makes her character a lot more interesting and it will be interesting to see where they take her next season. I still think it would have made more sense for Jenna to be red coat as she's been in it from the beginning, Sara only came in last season.
Loved the ending, the time jump definitely needed to happen. Can't wait for the winter premiere!!!!
I need to watch this episode again as it was all a lot to take in! Also I can't believe that Wren isn't involved somehow with this??!! Why is his name constantly being brought up still...
I didn't put my post in spoiler tags as the episode has aired now and I'm guessing everyone coming on this thread is up to date!
Marlene was asked in an interview who killed Garrett, it was Wilden apparently
OMG. Looks like I'm in the minority but I absolutely loved this episode. The only thing is I felt like it could/should of been longer, the last 5 minutes on the roof, leaving and flashback felt really rushed. I'm also happy with how much was answered in this episode and the flashbacks were nice. The answered questions didn't feel rushed and they've still kept some unanswered.. Who killed Mrs D? How do Sara and CeCe know each other? Who killed Garett?
I like CeCe being Charles, really wasn't expecting it and after reading all the transgender theories online, I thought it would have been Bethany that was Charles. Didn't they say that Charles was in it from Season 1 though? CeCe didn't come in until what S4?
Nice twist with Sara being red coat/black widow, it was so obvious when she guessed the passcode and then didn't enter the room with them though that something was up with her. Makes her character a lot more interesting and it will be interesting to see where they take her next season. I still think it would have made more sense for Jenna to be red coat as she's been in it from the beginning, Sara only came in last season.
Loved the ending, the time jump definitely needed to happen. Can't wait for the winter premiere!!!!
I need to watch this episode again as it was all a lot to take in! Also I can't believe that Wren isn't involved somehow with this??!! Why is his name constantly being brought up still...
I didn't put my post in spoiler tags as the episode has aired now and I'm guessing everyone coming on this thread is up to date!
Wren not being involved makes so little sense. Where did CeCe get access to the body parts that she kept using (per IMK)? Why was Wren giving her visitor passes when she was a patient? What were all of his shady phone calls about? Why was he drawing pictures of the farm with red coat?
Seriously though I thought CeCe being Charles was a decent twist, there could have been worse options! Slightly disappointing with Sara being both Red Coat and Black Widow, I was almost certain that Melissa was going to be one of the two.
It kind of contradicted itself somehow because when Mrs D. died A sent the girls a text of her body
It could have done to be a bit longer imo because after CeCe said "game over" it just cut straight out, definitely think more could have been added on the roof scene.
I was praying for Maya to come back as well but I don't think she will anymore
They don't disappoint with their underwhelming finales.
Considering this was just the mid-season finale, it tried to pack in a lot. Which, for me, just came across as pure exposition, with little connective flow that made it look like a cohesive story; Every other line was like a direct readout from an answer sheet.
The reveal. Figured out the sex change due to the obsession with the girls and imaging A to be a rich guy - Had to be able to walk among them somehow without raising suspicion. Didn't think it was Cece, though. Even so, it was still a half-expected reveal due to it being a strong possibility.
Going forward, I don't think I care too much for what is to come. There is only a few mysteries left to resolve: Mrs D's death, Ian's killer, Maya's killer and the NAT club stuff. Beyond that, i'm not bothered about a repeat scenario (run, don't tell the police, mess up and suffer in silence) of the last five years. Especially, if it's Charles on the hunt again. Less so, if it's Wren, Jason or Ezra.
Wren not being involved makes so little sense. Where did CeCe get access to the body parts that she kept using (per IMK)? Why was Wren giving her visitor passes when she was a patient? What were all of his shady phone calls about? Why was he drawing pictures of the farm with red coat?
Wren has to be apart of it somehow.. There must be some explanation to all his weird behaviour, I can't see them just forgetting about it and moving on. The biggest thing for me is who was he giving the visitor pass to as CeCe wouldn't need it.
Going forward, I don't think I care too much for what is to come. There is only a few mysteries left to resolve: Mrs D's death, Ian's killer, Maya's killer and the NAT club stuff. Beyond that, i'm not bothered about a repeat scenario (run, don't tell the police, mess up and suffer in silence) of the last five years. Especially, if it's Charles on the hunt again. Less so, if it's Wren, Jason or Ezra.
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Who killed Ian? (Season 2, Episode 4)
MARLENE KING: Ian killed himself but Mona staged the note and the crime scene.
There is only a few mysteries left to resolve: Mrs D's death, Ian's killer, Maya's killer and the NAT club stuff. Beyond that, i'm not bothered about a repeat scenario (run, don't tell the police, mess up and suffer in silence) of the last five years. Especially, if it's Charles on the hunt again. Less so, if it's Wren, Jason or Ezra.
The only one of those mysteries I can see coming up again is who killed Mrs D. I didn't think Nate killed Maya but I can't imagine they'll revisit that or the NAT club, annoyingly. I think the rest of the show will be about Sara Harvey getting her revenge which I think is so stupid.
Someone on Reddit figured out how old CeCe/Bethany should have been - and how the actual show ended up about 10 YEARS out. No wonder why it didn't make much sense.
CeCe should have been about 22 and Bethany about 15 in the flash back to the rooftop at Radley (When CeCe was still Charles).
CeCe/Charles = 1-2 years older than Jason
Jason/Melissa prom/graduation = 2005 Ali/Liars graduation = 2012 Thus, Jason = 7 years older than Ali
Marion dies 1 year before Mona starts torturing Ali Halloween '08 = 2007
In 2007 when Marion dies: Charles 21-22, Jason 20, Bethany 15, Ali 13
In 2009 when Ali disappears: CeCe 23-24, Jason 22, Bethany 17, Ali 15
Of course these ages also mean that the NAT club would have been filming 10-12 year olds...
This is why I'm so disappointed by the whole thing, the plot line COULD have worked if they were just not so sloppy. Instead you've been left with a plot that makes no sense.
Someone on Reddit figured out how old CeCe/Bethany should have been - and how the actual show ended up about 10 YEARS out. No wonder why it didn't make much sense.
CeCe should have been about 22 and Bethany about 15 in the flash back to the rooftop at Radley (When CeCe was still Charles).
Of course these ages also mean that the NAT club would have been filming 10-12 year olds...
This is why I'm so disappointed by the whole thing, the plot line COULD have worked if they were just not so sloppy. Instead you've been left with a plot that makes no sense.
Just seen on another site that someone else pointed out how, based on the ages the show gave us, CeCe/Charles was taken into Radley BEFORE Ali was born. They totally mucked up the timeline
I really didn't like the way that they kind of made out that being trans was the same as being mentally ill. but cece's acting was really great, i thought, which made it a lot better than it could have been. i'm just really pissed off that red coat AND black widow were sara harvey. and now i'm guessing that the rest of the show will be about sara trying to get her revenge and honestly i don't know if i'll watch. i'll probably catch the first episode and the last episode like i did this season.
I'll start by saying I'm trans myself. I really didn't see it as being the same as being mentally ill, the mr D couldn't cope with the idea of his son being different and so had him locked up I a mental hospital, ok, to him he saw it as an illness. The whole Time whilst in the hospital CeCe seemed at ease with it, nobody else in the show seemed to have any thoughts of I being an illness. There was one throwaway line by Emily which I imagine was put in just to show sone peoples ignorance and lack of knowledge on a topic that always gets played for laughs but never seriously discussed.
The whole back story for me actually seemed tragic and I could oarially
Just seen on another site that someone else pointed out how, based on the ages the show gave us, CeCe/Charles was taken into Radley BEFORE Ali was born. They totally mucked up the timeline
Another thing pointed out was the flashback of Ali and Toby in his room and his mum comes in.. During the flashback Ali and Toby were both teenagers which isn't right as Toby's mum died when they were little according to the finale. Also Toby says in the earlier season that his mum died last year. Major continuity error that actually can't be explained.
It's frustrating as the whole CeCe being A and being trans could've worked, but the whole story they wrote around it was just so sloppy, riddled with holes and made no sense.
As far as I can tell, simply making Charles/Bethany older when on the roof would've immediately fixed a number of the problems and got all the ages in order.
They could have done something with Wren at Radley to explain a lot of other things and also bring him in. Say, Charlie was only allowed to visit other patients for an hour a day. Hence, Wren helped Charlie see Mona for longer by disguising her as a visitor called CeCe. This would also provide a tie in Charlie choosing to later call herself CeCe, and get Wren involved and his shady dealings.
They could've said pretty much ANYTHING about Sara Harvey to link her to CeCe ad the girls, given she has no back story whatsoever, but they didn't even bother to make something up. How's about she went to UPenn with CeCe and they were pals? When CeCe left college, she was told it was because Ali the Liars got her kicked out, and so she wanted to help CeCe get revenge.
The only big hole I can't really plug is the whole dollhouse prom scene when A is SO CLEARLY a bloke. He's even taller than Spencer in heels while CeCe is a rather petite girl who's shorter than Spencer in flats. Even if we suppose it was somehow CeCe in a wig, fat suit and on stilts, why did she go such lengths to be a guy? It contradicts the entire trans story line
I've still got a feeling that Melissa is somehow involved because she was with CeCe that night(who was wearing ali's clothes)
Well the explanation from CeCe was that bit never happened and Jason must've been mistaken, or saw bethany, who had stolen CeCe's clothes (which matched Ali's as their mum brought them the same things) to pretend to be CeCe and attack Ali/CeCe's mum for having an affair with her dad.
Melissa soo seemed to be Black Widow, especially actually being a widow and having a reason to disguise herself, as opposed to Sara who no one had a clue who she was.
Comments
And just what has Wren been up to in general? The suspicious phone calls, the red coat drawing, Eddie Lamb's comments etc.
Red coat/Black widow is just irritating, but I'm glad Sara isn't nice because then Emily would have stayed with her
I'm also disappointed that we didn't see Jason realising Charles was CeCe, that would have been hilarious
Overall, not decided how I feel. I thought the story was convincing, and I don't think it was anti-trans, I did feel sorry for CeCe as did the girls. We know Mr D was the one in the wrong and Mrs D didn't really help, although she did love her.
SO MANY MORE QUESTIONS.
On the whole I quite enjoyed the episode and did feel sorry for CeCe.
We weren't meant to like that Mr D in particular thought of Charles as mentally ill for wanting to be a girl. Think that was the whole point, the fact Charles/Charlotte spent most of her life in Radley when there was nothing wrong with her was the cause of the whole A game.
I think I am glad of a time jump. All the girls can go off to college and come back hopefully (!) a bit more mature and wiser. But they are bound to get sucked back into whatever this "he" who is coming is up to.
put it in tags seen as everyone else is, even though as it has aired, it is technically not a spoiler any more.
I like CeCe being Charles, really wasn't expecting it and after reading all the transgender theories online, I thought it would have been Bethany that was Charles. Didn't they say that Charles was in it from Season 1 though? CeCe didn't come in until what S4?
Nice twist with Sara being red coat/black widow, it was so obvious when she guessed the passcode and then didn't enter the room with them though that something was up with her. Makes her character a lot more interesting and it will be interesting to see where they take her next season. I still think it would have made more sense for Jenna to be red coat as she's been in it from the beginning, Sara only came in last season.
Loved the ending, the time jump definitely needed to happen. Can't wait for the winter premiere!!!!
I need to watch this episode again as it was all a lot to take in! Also I can't believe that Wren isn't involved somehow with this??!! Why is his name constantly being brought up still...
I didn't put my post in spoiler tags as the episode has aired now and I'm guessing everyone coming on this thread is up to date!
Lots of questions still left but I'm sure they'll be answered at some point!
Marlene was asked in an interview who killed Garrett, it was Wilden apparently
Thank you! Have they explained it on the show that's what happened? Maybe I missed it
Was this when he was a 13-year-old dirty cop covering up the death of Marion as a suicide?
Seriously though, they've had six seasons, mostly filler recently, and she answers such questions as an afterthought in an interview.
Wren not being involved makes so little sense. Where did CeCe get access to the body parts that she kept using (per IMK)? Why was Wren giving her visitor passes when she was a patient? What were all of his shady phone calls about? Why was he drawing pictures of the farm with red coat?
Seriously though I thought CeCe being Charles was a decent twist, there could have been worse options! Slightly disappointing with Sara being both Red Coat and Black Widow, I was almost certain that Melissa was going to be one of the two.
It kind of contradicted itself somehow because when Mrs D. died A sent the girls a text of her body
It could have done to be a bit longer imo because after CeCe said "game over" it just cut straight out, definitely think more could have been added on the roof scene.
I was praying for Maya to come back as well but I don't think she will anymore
Considering this was just the mid-season finale, it tried to pack in a lot. Which, for me, just came across as pure exposition, with little connective flow that made it look like a cohesive story; Every other line was like a direct readout from an answer sheet.
The reveal. Figured out the sex change due to the obsession with the girls and imaging A to be a rich guy - Had to be able to walk among them somehow without raising suspicion. Didn't think it was Cece, though. Even so, it was still a half-expected reveal due to it being a strong possibility.
Going forward, I don't think I care too much for what is to come. There is only a few mysteries left to resolve: Mrs D's death, Ian's killer, Maya's killer and the NAT club stuff. Beyond that, i'm not bothered about a repeat scenario (run, don't tell the police, mess up and suffer in silence) of the last five years. Especially, if it's Charles on the hunt again. Less so, if it's Wren, Jason or Ezra.
Wren has to be apart of it somehow.. There must be some explanation to all his weird behaviour, I can't see them just forgetting about it and moving on. The biggest thing for me is who was he giving the visitor pass to as CeCe wouldn't need it.
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Who killed Ian? (Season 2, Episode 4)
MARLENE KING: Ian killed himself but Mona staged the note and the crime scene.
The only one of those mysteries I can see coming up again is who killed Mrs D. I didn't think Nate killed Maya but I can't imagine they'll revisit that or the NAT club, annoyingly. I think the rest of the show will be about Sara Harvey getting her revenge which I think is so stupid.
CeCe should have been about 22 and Bethany about 15 in the flash back to the rooftop at Radley (When CeCe was still Charles).
Of course these ages also mean that the NAT club would have been filming 10-12 year olds...
This is why I'm so disappointed by the whole thing, the plot line COULD have worked if they were just not so sloppy. Instead you've been left with a plot that makes no sense.
Just seen on another site that someone else pointed out how, based on the ages the show gave us, CeCe/Charles was taken into Radley BEFORE Ali was born. They totally mucked up the timeline
The whole back story for me actually seemed tragic and I could oarially
Another thing pointed out was the flashback of Ali and Toby in his room and his mum comes in.. During the flashback Ali and Toby were both teenagers which isn't right as Toby's mum died when they were little according to the finale. Also Toby says in the earlier season that his mum died last year. Major continuity error that actually can't be explained.
http://youtu.be/Im9tAxSgV4w Flashback link
As far as I can tell, simply making Charles/Bethany older when on the roof would've immediately fixed a number of the problems and got all the ages in order.
They could have done something with Wren at Radley to explain a lot of other things and also bring him in. Say, Charlie was only allowed to visit other patients for an hour a day. Hence, Wren helped Charlie see Mona for longer by disguising her as a visitor called CeCe. This would also provide a tie in Charlie choosing to later call herself CeCe, and get Wren involved and his shady dealings.
They could've said pretty much ANYTHING about Sara Harvey to link her to CeCe ad the girls, given she has no back story whatsoever, but they didn't even bother to make something up. How's about she went to UPenn with CeCe and they were pals? When CeCe left college, she was told it was because Ali the Liars got her kicked out, and so she wanted to help CeCe get revenge.
The only big hole I can't really plug is the whole dollhouse prom scene when A is SO CLEARLY a bloke. He's even taller than Spencer in heels while CeCe is a rather petite girl who's shorter than Spencer in flats. Even if we suppose it was somehow CeCe in a wig, fat suit and on stilts, why did she go such lengths to be a guy? It contradicts the entire trans story line
Well the explanation from CeCe was that bit never happened and Jason must've been mistaken, or saw bethany, who had stolen CeCe's clothes (which matched Ali's as their mum brought them the same things) to pretend to be CeCe and attack Ali/CeCe's mum for having an affair with her dad.
Melissa soo seemed to be Black Widow, especially actually being a widow and having a reason to disguise herself, as opposed to Sara who no one had a clue who she was.