So if thats the case, as I said last night, a fair chunk of the album is less good than the Adele written parts? So considering all the songs were cowritten with folk deemed less good or capable, does that mean the songs ying and yang between good and bad withing the same lines or verses?
sorry, by the "other 2" i was referring to Kate Bush and PJ.
So if thats the case, as I said last night, a fair chunk of the album is less good than the Adele written parts? So considering all the songs were cowritten with folk deemed less good or capable, does that mean the songs ying and yang between good and bad withing the same lines or verses?
Nope, this means her co-writers are belongs to the best but she is better.
And vice versa i find it quite odd that through out this convo people have criticised Adeles win an praised that of their favourite Pj whilst failing to mention Kate so its obvious how people can feel that Adele could win anything deservingly to some but to the majority be hugely discredited and bashed for it regardless.
And thats some not all i have no issue with you hating Adele its your Prerogative all music is subjective (if on the fringes and having sold two copies )
You're doing it again! Having an opinion that Adele shouldn't have won something or that you think someone else deserved the award more is not criticising Adele and doesn't need to turn into some sort of childish fan war.
For the record I think Adele does have songwriting ability but there are other artists I heard in 2011 that I would consider better songwriters (not just PJ Harvey). I personally still wouldn't have given her the award even if she'd written 100% of her album but that's just my opinion.
The reason PJ was mentioned is because she won best album at the same awards so it's natural that she is going to be discussed too. To me, this thread was just as much about the awards as Adele (although I know that some people would like to think it's all about Adele and that we're all obsessed with her ).
That wasn't what I said.
I said they got it wrong by giving a songwriter award to someone who didn't write solo but as a group.
And I didn't say I rate her. I just didn't dispute she cowrote and sang on her album.
As for percentage, who cares, more than 1 less than a 100, approx.
And the real point of this thread isn't really about Adele. Its about how the award was given out.
Dozier wouldn't have picked up a solo writing award when working with Holland I and Holland II would he?
The Oscars wouldn't have awarded one of the Sherman Brothers for Best Song.
The NTA's wouldn't award Ant and not Dec.
(feel free to insert your own person from a group or partnership wining a solo award when they arent solo)
it's not a bad point you make....excpet the bit about Ant & Dec, they're not artists and aren't involved in a creative process - and nobody knows for sure which is which:).
Apart from that, i dunno, there may be examples where individuals from a songwriting partnership have been awarded seperately...i'd have to do more research than i have time for. But if not maybe you've a point about the title of the award.
sorry, by the "other 2" i was referring to Kate Bush and PJ.
Ah right so
'perhaps they decided the part Adele contributed was of a higher quality than the larger part the other 2 wrote'
The other 2 refers to Kate Bush and PJ Harvey.
But they can't think 21 is of a higher standard because they awarded PJ Harvey best album and Harvey wrote that on her Jack Jones.
Or was PJ Harveys part (the whole album) which they had already decided was the best album of a lower standard to the parts of an album deemed not Best Album of the year?
So that doesn't make sense.
it's not a bad point you make....excpet the bit about Ant & Dec, they're not artists and aren't involved in a creative process - and nobody knows for sure which is which:).
Apart from that, i dunno, there may be examples where individuals from a songwriting partnership have been awarded seperately...i'd have to do more research than i have time for. But if not maybe you've a point about the title of the award.
One has a massive heid
The other one got blinded in a terrible paint balling incident.
But to name which is which, I'd put my chances at 50:50 at best
This has been my point. The award is titled wrong. Someone brought up that Lily Allen won best songwriter a few years back at it. Apparently her album was co-written as well. The Ivors have previous with this.
They don't seem to sharp. I'd probably be more likely to pay attention to Ivor the Engines music award now.
There is no point people continue to argue about this, the facts are as follows.
The award is for a songwriter and not a songwriting team so awarding adele the award was wrong as she is not a solo songwriter.
Awarding an artist a songwriting award to clearly champion up their sales is also wrong.
The award has now lost all credability for what it stood for.
They have now set a precedent for the award so as of next year they will have to allow anyone who co-writes to be up for this award effectively making the award open to almost every artsit.
I dont blame adele but blame the powers that be for allowing this award to be cheapened, i think its a clear example of how much adele hysteria has taken over the UK and has damaged the reputation of a presticious award that was awarded for talented solo songwriters from the UK.
There is no point people continue to argue about this, the facts are as follows.
The award is for a songwriter and not a songwriting team so awarding adele the award was wrong as she is not a solo songwriter.
Awarding an artist a songwriting award to clearly champion up their sales is also wrong.
The award has now lost all credability for what it stood for.
They have now set a precedent for the award so as of next year they will have to allow anyone who co-writes to be up for this award effectively making the award open to almost every artsit.
I dont blame adele but blame the powers that be for allowing this award to be cheapened, i think its a clear example of how much adele hysteria has taken over the UK.
Aparently they did it with Lily Allen a few years back so I think its that the Ivors a bit spongey in the noodle and don't read good.
Had it been a hysteria thing she'd have got best album as well. And they'd probably have renamed it The Ivor Novello Adeles
Aparently they did it with Lily Allen a few years back so I think its that the Ivors a bit spongey in the noodle and don't read good. Had it been a hysteria thing she'd have got best album as well. And they'd probably have renamed it The Ivor Novello Adeles
As many have said I think it was a case of them having to give her something, and this was a category they could shoehorn her into. Whatever the reason its clearly wrong. I mean if she had written even half of 21 on her own then the award would carry more merit but she has not written one single song solo on that album and that is what highlights it being so wrong. I dont know nothing about lilly allen but didn't she solo write many songs on her album when she won the award.
As many have said I think it was a case of them having to give her something, and this was a category they could shoehorn her into. Whatever the reason its clearly wrong. I mean if she had written even half of 21 on her own then the award would carry more merit but she has not written one single song solo on that album and that is what highlights it being so wrong. I dont know nothing about lilly allen but didn't she solo write many songs on her album when she won the award.
Lily Allen has never solely written a song nope not one on either of her two albums and im a fan.
Adele has so in this instance Adele wins out.
And frankly you say they felt obliged to give her the award i feel the same about Harvey it was ovbious it was gonna be her or Adele as Pj Harvey is the cool critically acclaimed album of the moment Adle gets the pop awards and seemingly Polly gets the prestigious awards which looking at the Ivor Nevello the two most hyped up and critically acclaimed albums of the last year win the two biggest awards so swings and round abouts.
Personally, I think the award should've been awarded to the all of the writers who contributed to 21 in the same way as the Grammy for Song of The Year (essentially a songwriting award and distinct from Record of the Year) is awarded to all who contributed to the composition.
Perhaps, the reasoning behind the Ivor Novello award was that Adele was the constant in all of the original songs in 21 and they felt this was enough to deserve the merit. I'm not saying this reasoning is right or wrong but maybe that's how the decision was made.
I could genuinely understand the vitriol of the P J stans (because that's what they have to be called now after this thread :eek:) if there had been any sort of backlash from Adele stans for winning Album of the Year but, just like with the Mercury, there hasn't. I can only speak for myself but it's actually good that Adele doesn't win every award going as well setting all those sales records as it would I'm sure be a demotivating thing for every other artist. I even started a thread on Polly Jean's Ivor win to try and get P J stans posting positively about their fave instead of posting so negatively here but I think it got 6 replies whereas this negative thread has broken through the 160 posts barrier! Says it all, really, and maybe it's a reflection of society at the moment that people seem to get far more pleasure out of being negative about something they don't like than being positive about something they do like. I'll never truly understand that mindset but hey ho.
Your fave won a very prestigious award, peeps, why can't you celebrate it without looking for the negative all the time?
I could genuinely understand the vitriol of the P J stans (because that's what they have to be called now after this thread :eek:) if there had been any sort of backlash from Adele stans for winning Album of the Year but, just like with the Mercury, there hasn't. I can only speak for myself but it's actually good that Adele doesn't win every award going as well setting all those sales records as it would I'm sure be a demotivating thing for every other artist. I even started a thread on Polly Jean's Ivor win to try and get P J stans posting positively about their fave instead of posting so negatively here but I think it got 6 replies whereas this negative has broken through the 160 barrier! Says it all, really, and maybe it's a reflection of society at the moment that people seem to get far more pleasure out of being negative about something they don't like than being positive about something they do like. I'll never truly understand that mindset but hey ho.
Exactly I desperately wanted Kate to win but as she is neither current (Adele) or the critical darling (Pj Harvey) i knew it was never gonna happen im not gonna start an anti Pj thread to pick apart all the reasons she should not have won it with ever increasing reasoning but just accept and move on from it.
And i agree that to me is why she won it she had overall majority on the record but that distinction should be made aware rather than overall credit.
I could genuinely understand the vitriol of the P J stans (because that's what they have to be called now after this thread :eek:) if there had been any sort of backlash from Adele stans for winning Album of the Year but, just like with the Mercury, there hasn't. I can only speak for myself but it's actually good that Adele doesn't win every award going as well setting all those sales records as it would I'm sure be a demotivating thing for every other artist. I even started a thread on Polly Jean's Ivor win to try and get P J stans posting positively about their fave instead of posting so negatively here but I think it got 6 replies whereas this negative has broken through the 160 barrier! Says it all, really, and maybe it's a reflection of society at the moment that people seem to get far more pleasure out of being negative about something they don't like than being positive about something they do like. I'll never truly understand that mindset but hey ho.
Did you even bother to read what I had posted about how it had nothing to do with Adele?
There was even another part of the thread where a few of us had comented we'd have rathered the Kate Bush album won.
So it's nothing to do with 'PJ Stans' it was all to do with the award what it was called and how it was given out.
But hey thats just facts isn't it. Facts that have been repeated over and over earlier in this thread even on this page.
Did you even bother to read what I had posted about how it had nothing to do with Adele?
There was even another part of the thread where a few of us had comented we'd have rathered the Kate Bush album won.
So it's nothing to do with 'PJ Stans' it was all to do with the award what it was called and how it was given out.
But hey thats just facts isn't it. Facts that have been repeated over and over earlier in this thread even on this page.
Shane, with you it usually IS to do with Adele and that's a fact that can easily be substantiated if you challenge me on this.
Did you even bother to read what I had posted about how it had nothing to do with Adele?
There was even another part of the thread where a few of us had comented we'd have rathered the Kate Bush album won.
So it's nothing to do with 'PJ Stans' it was all to do with the award what it was called and how it was given out.
But hey thats just facts isn't it. Facts that have been repeated over and over earlier in this thread even on this page.
Can i make a point Adele is a Songwriter the award is for songwriter which she is however much she wrote on it the fact remains she is a songwriter that is whats confusing me.
The way i see it as she had overall majority on most if not all the lyrics bar a sentence and half a part to play on the melodies she is a songwriter and the award is for songwriter so i have no issue with it.
The problem is arising that your taking it to literal your taking it mean someone who has written an entire album which it is not it is for someone who writes material which she does its not like their awarding it to Cheryl Cole who has bugger all input
I could genuinely understand the vitriol of the P J stans
Here we go again :rolleyes:. Like I said to you earlier before you disappeared again, please don't try to bring us all down to your level. If you take everything as a criticism of Adele perhaps you should stick to the appreciation thread instead of coming out with childish insults.
It may shock you to hear that I like Adele and I do rate her to some degree but I consider myself to be more realistic about her ability and the music she's produced so far in her career than some people. But of course, I must be lying and I secretly despise her because I also like other artists that I rate higher such as PJ Harvey :rolleyes:.
Ah right so
'perhaps they decided the part Adele contributed was of a higher quality than the larger part the other 2 wrote'
The other 2 refers to Kate Bush and PJ Harvey.
But they can't think 21 is of a higher standard because they awarded PJ Harvey best album and Harvey wrote that on her Jack Jones.
Or was PJ Harveys part (the whole album) which they had already decided was the best album of a lower standard to the parts of an album deemed not Best Album of the year?
So that doesn't make sense.
no it doesn't make sense. But you could turn it the other way round and say if they thought Adele's album had the best songwriting why didn't they award her the best album also. Maybe they thought it would show little imagination to give all the awards to one person. Who knows what their thinking was but i'd agree, one way or another it seems a little muddled.
I'm not so sure we should care too much. I think Ivor should be the only one who should care as its in his name. My guess is he'd be happy with both artists sharing the awards and will be lying contentedly in his grave, and not spinning. And i feel the same way about the whole thing...both deserve their accolades even if they may have got each others:)
edit: and returning to your earlier point about songwriting partnerships, if Adele had a consistent partner it may be a different ballgame, but she's had varied partners as well as solo songwriting credits. The standard has remained consistently high so she is clearly the common denominator...and so she deserves to be recognised as a quality songwriter in my view.
Can i make a point Adele is a Songwriter the award is for songwriter which she is however much she wrote on it the fact remains she is a songwriter that is whats confusing me.
The way i see it as she had overall majority on most if not all the lyrics bar a sentence and half a part to play on the melodies she is a songwriter and the award is for songwriter so i have no issue with it.
The problem is arising that your taking it to literal your taking it mean someone who has written an entire album which it is not it is for someone who writes material which she does its not like their awarding it to Cheryl Cole who has bugger all input
We've gone in more circles than Liverpool have turned corners.
It's not taking it too literal.
A songwriter is someone who writes songs yes?
Now if more than one people write songs Adele and her guys, Holland, Dozier and Holland, Morrissey/Marr, Lennon & McCartney, Tilbrook & Difford, heck even Stock, Aitken and Waterman. Thats not a songwriter. Thats a writing team, partnership, duo whatever.
no it doesn't make sense. But you could turn it the other way round and say if they thought Adele's album had the best songwriting why didn't they award her the best album also. Maybe they thought it would show little imagination to give all the awards to one person. Who knows what their thinking was but i'd agree, one way or another it seems a little muddled.
I'm not so sure we should care too much. I think Ivor should be the only one who should care as its in his name. My guess is he'd be happy with both artists sharing the awards and will be lying contentedly in his grave, and not spinning. And i feel the same way about the whole thing...both deserve their accolades even if they may have got each others:)
edit: and returning to your earlier point about songwriting partnerships, if Adele had a consistent partner it may be a different ballgame, but she's had varied partners as well as solo songwriting credits. The standard has remained consistently high so she is clearly the common denominator...and so she deserves to be recognised as a quality songwriter in my view.
If she had a consistant partner there would have been no albums
Vaired partners gives an air of songwriting whoring going on.
Ok so you hadn't bothered to read anything.
OK.
Why bother involving yourself if you're not going to bother to read what has been written by folk?
That fella doesn't do discussion. He makes silly comments, ignores people's responses and then disappears from the thread. Seen it happen in a number of different threads now.
Can i make a point Adele is a Songwriter the award is for songwriter which she is however much she wrote on it the fact remains she is a songwriter that is whats confusing me.
The way i see it as she had overall majority on most if not all the lyrics bar a sentence and half a part to play on the melodies she is a songwriter and the award is for songwriter so i have no issue with it.
The problem is arising that your taking it to literal your taking it mean someone who has written an entire album which it is not it is for someone who writes material which she does its not like their awarding it to Cheryl Cole who has bugger all input
never mind the songwriting...even her singing voice is a collaboration
Ok so you hadn't bothered to read anything.
OK.
Why bother involving yourself if you're not going to bother to read what has been written by folk?
No challenge, I see. You do seem to have a particular problem with massive selling artists (even though you profess to not care about sales). You've concentrated your efforts on Adele in the last 16 months but before that it seemed to be Gaga.
That fella doesn't do discussion. He makes silly comments, ignores people's responses and then disappears from the thread. Seen it happen in a number of different threads now.
This from the poster who claimed he had 'evidence' to try and back up his opinion on yet another Adele thread then moaned incessantly when asked to produce it instead of admitting there actually wasn't any evidence at all.
PS Disappear? I have to do other things that don't involve DS let alone the internet. I'm certainly not one for posting summat and then constantly refreshing the page to see if it's attracted a response! How about you?
PPS and as regards ignoring responses, about this 'evidence' you claimed you had...:p
PPS i'm now going to put the curry on if that's OK with you. I'm then going to see my nieces band play their first gig tonight so don't think I'm 'disappearing' again if you don't get an immediate response to your inevitable response.
Comments
sorry, by the "other 2" i was referring to Kate Bush and PJ.
Nope, this means her co-writers are belongs to the best but she is better.
For the record I think Adele does have songwriting ability but there are other artists I heard in 2011 that I would consider better songwriters (not just PJ Harvey). I personally still wouldn't have given her the award even if she'd written 100% of her album but that's just my opinion.
The reason PJ was mentioned is because she won best album at the same awards so it's natural that she is going to be discussed too. To me, this thread was just as much about the awards as Adele (although I know that some people would like to think it's all about Adele and that we're all obsessed with her
it's not a bad point you make....excpet the bit about Ant & Dec, they're not artists and aren't involved in a creative process - and nobody knows for sure which is which:).
Apart from that, i dunno, there may be examples where individuals from a songwriting partnership have been awarded seperately...i'd have to do more research than i have time for. But if not maybe you've a point about the title of the award.
Ah right so
'perhaps they decided the part Adele contributed was of a higher quality than the larger part the other 2 wrote'
The other 2 refers to Kate Bush and PJ Harvey.
But they can't think 21 is of a higher standard because they awarded PJ Harvey best album and Harvey wrote that on her Jack Jones.
Or was PJ Harveys part (the whole album) which they had already decided was the best album of a lower standard to the parts of an album deemed not Best Album of the year?
So that doesn't make sense.
One has a massive heid
The other one got blinded in a terrible paint balling incident.
But to name which is which, I'd put my chances at 50:50 at best
This has been my point. The award is titled wrong. Someone brought up that Lily Allen won best songwriter a few years back at it. Apparently her album was co-written as well. The Ivors have previous with this.
They don't seem to sharp. I'd probably be more likely to pay attention to Ivor the Engines music award now.
The award is for a songwriter and not a songwriting team so awarding adele the award was wrong as she is not a solo songwriter.
Awarding an artist a songwriting award to clearly champion up their sales is also wrong.
The award has now lost all credability for what it stood for.
They have now set a precedent for the award so as of next year they will have to allow anyone who co-writes to be up for this award effectively making the award open to almost every artsit.
I dont blame adele but blame the powers that be for allowing this award to be cheapened, i think its a clear example of how much adele hysteria has taken over the UK and has damaged the reputation of a presticious award that was awarded for talented solo songwriters from the UK.
Aparently they did it with Lily Allen a few years back so I think its that the Ivors a bit spongey in the noodle and don't read good.
Had it been a hysteria thing she'd have got best album as well. And they'd probably have renamed it The Ivor Novello Adeles
As many have said I think it was a case of them having to give her something, and this was a category they could shoehorn her into. Whatever the reason its clearly wrong. I mean if she had written even half of 21 on her own then the award would carry more merit but she has not written one single song solo on that album and that is what highlights it being so wrong. I dont know nothing about lilly allen but didn't she solo write many songs on her album when she won the award.
Lily Allen has never solely written a song nope not one on either of her two albums and im a fan.
Adele has so in this instance Adele wins out.
And frankly you say they felt obliged to give her the award i feel the same about Harvey it was ovbious it was gonna be her or Adele as Pj Harvey is the cool critically acclaimed album of the moment Adle gets the pop awards and seemingly Polly gets the prestigious awards which looking at the Ivor Nevello the two most hyped up and critically acclaimed albums of the last year win the two biggest awards so swings and round abouts.
Perhaps, the reasoning behind the Ivor Novello award was that Adele was the constant in all of the original songs in 21 and they felt this was enough to deserve the merit. I'm not saying this reasoning is right or wrong but maybe that's how the decision was made.
Your fave won a very prestigious award, peeps, why can't you celebrate it without looking for the negative all the time?
Exactly I desperately wanted Kate to win but as she is neither current (Adele) or the critical darling (Pj Harvey) i knew it was never gonna happen im not gonna start an anti Pj thread to pick apart all the reasons she should not have won it with ever increasing reasoning but just accept and move on from it.
And i agree that to me is why she won it she had overall majority on the record but that distinction should be made aware rather than overall credit.
Did you even bother to read what I had posted about how it had nothing to do with Adele?
There was even another part of the thread where a few of us had comented we'd have rathered the Kate Bush album won.
So it's nothing to do with 'PJ Stans' it was all to do with the award what it was called and how it was given out.
But hey thats just facts isn't it. Facts that have been repeated over and over earlier in this thread even on this page.
Shane, with you it usually IS to do with Adele and that's a fact that can easily be substantiated if you challenge me on this.
Can i make a point Adele is a Songwriter the award is for songwriter which she is however much she wrote on it the fact remains she is a songwriter that is whats confusing me.
The way i see it as she had overall majority on most if not all the lyrics bar a sentence and half a part to play on the melodies she is a songwriter and the award is for songwriter so i have no issue with it.
The problem is arising that your taking it to literal your taking it mean someone who has written an entire album which it is not it is for someone who writes material which she does its not like their awarding it to Cheryl Cole who has bugger all input
It may shock you to hear that I like Adele and I do rate her to some degree but I consider myself to be more realistic about her ability and the music she's produced so far in her career than some people. But of course, I must be lying and I secretly despise her because I also like other artists that I rate higher such as PJ Harvey :rolleyes:.
no it doesn't make sense. But you could turn it the other way round and say if they thought Adele's album had the best songwriting why didn't they award her the best album also. Maybe they thought it would show little imagination to give all the awards to one person. Who knows what their thinking was but i'd agree, one way or another it seems a little muddled.
I'm not so sure we should care too much. I think Ivor should be the only one who should care as its in his name. My guess is he'd be happy with both artists sharing the awards and will be lying contentedly in his grave, and not spinning. And i feel the same way about the whole thing...both deserve their accolades even if they may have got each others:)
edit: and returning to your earlier point about songwriting partnerships, if Adele had a consistent partner it may be a different ballgame, but she's had varied partners as well as solo songwriting credits. The standard has remained consistently high so she is clearly the common denominator...and so she deserves to be recognised as a quality songwriter in my view.
We've gone in more circles than Liverpool have turned corners.
It's not taking it too literal.
A songwriter is someone who writes songs yes?
Now if more than one people write songs Adele and her guys, Holland, Dozier and Holland, Morrissey/Marr, Lennon & McCartney, Tilbrook & Difford, heck even Stock, Aitken and Waterman. Thats not a songwriter. Thats a writing team, partnership, duo whatever.
If she had a consistant partner there would have been no albums
Vaired partners gives an air of songwriting whoring going on.
Ok so you hadn't bothered to read anything.
OK.
Why bother involving yourself if you're not going to bother to read what has been written by folk?
never mind the songwriting...even her singing voice is a collaboration
No challenge, I see.
This from the poster who claimed he had 'evidence' to try and back up his opinion on yet another Adele thread then moaned incessantly when asked to produce it instead of admitting there actually wasn't any evidence at all.
PS Disappear?
PPS and as regards ignoring responses, about this 'evidence' you claimed you had...:p
PPS i'm now going to put the curry on if that's OK with you. I'm then going to see my nieces band play their first gig tonight so don't think I'm 'disappearing' again if you don't get an immediate response to your inevitable response.