The question was why did the DWP decide to keep fighting and appealing the not wanting to release the figures. But were they fit for work that is the question ?
So weirlandia4eva was correct - the figures in themselves prove nothing.
This mean IDS is the biggest serial killer ever!
Its all the worry caused too, waiting a year to appeal against the decision. The stress and worry caused especially for vulnerable people.
It was worrying for me , i was so depressed, its unbelievable
These figures mean nothing. A person on this list may have been killed in a car crash or murdered (not be IDS) or hit by lightning or died of something totally unrelated to whatever condition they were claiming benefits for.
That's a hell of a lot of people dying accidentally.
i despair at how many people are either just failing to miss the point of these figures or being deliberately obtuse to deflect attention away from the real issue
no-one is saying that anyone died BECAUSE they were found fit for work
no-one is saying that people who are fit for work dont die day in day out
what these numbers are highlighting is a flaw in the WCA that so many people are dying within weeks of a system, already riddled with problems, declaring them fit for work
Deaths among all benefits claimants fell from 0.82% under Labour to 0.72% under the Lib/Tories.
So deaths amongst benefit claimants have fallen by 12% from 2003 to 2013 yet everyone is up in arms. People on benefits will unfortunately die, they always have and they always will. Similarly people who are not on benefits die unexpectedly whether that is heart attack, stroke or any other means. Surely the fact that the numbers have gone down is a good thing. There has been no direct correlation that the sanctions have affected this in an adverse way.
So deaths amongst benefit claimants have fallen by 12% from 2003 to 2013 yet everyone is up in arms. People on benefits will unfortunately die, they always have and they always will. Similarly people who are not on benefits die unexpectedly whether that is heart attack, stroke or any other means. Surely the fact that the numbers have gone down is a good thing. There has been no direct correlation that the sanctions have affected this in an adverse way.
Considering the number of people on disability and sickness benefits the number dying is statistically horrifying. Or didn't you think of that.
i despair at how many people are either just failing to miss the point of these figures or being deliberately obtuse to deflect attention away from the real issue
no-one is saying that anyone died BECAUSE they were found fit for work
no-one is saying that people who are fit for work dont die day in day out
what these numbers are highlighting is a flaw in the WCA that so many people are dying within weeks of a system, already riddled with problems, declaring them fit for work
Being declared fit for work can mean you are fit to be a telephone receptionist or a data entry clerk. Do you really think these kind of jobs hassen people's deaths?
Being declared fit for work can mean you are fit to be a telephone receptionist or a data entry clerk. Do you really think these kind of jobs hassen people's deaths?
I think you are missing the point. The people wrongly declared fit for work are unable to do those jobs. A lot of conditions are variable, and that makes people unemployable. The issue then is that those people then end up on UB and subject to sanctions. Guessing you haven' thought this through - or you don't know what you are talking about. I will go for the first one as I'm being nice today.
Being declared fit for work can mean you are fit to be a telephone receptionist or a data entry clerk. Do you really think these kind of jobs hassen people's deaths?
where did i say that ?
the point is people with terminal illnesses and likely to die within a period of weeks should not be getting declared fit for work in the first place by under qualified private contractors
i'm out of this thread as its actually depressing me reading some of these comments
Considering the number of people on disability and sickness benefits the number dying is statistically horrifying. Or didn't you think of that.
But those numbers are GOING DOWN. 45,220 in 2003 down to 35,270 in 2013. Those figures include the terminally ill. Those found "fit for work" won't be in the disability/sickness figures.
Between 2003 and 2013, the age-standardised mortality rate for JSA, which includes some of those found “fit for work”, was consistently lower than the general working age population and fell from 218 deaths per 100,000 people to 138 deaths per 100,000 people.
That is a large drop in death rates. So large that IMO it seems odd and possibly wrong in some way.
Being declared fit for work can mean you are fit to be a telephone receptionist or a data entry clerk. Do you really think these kind of jobs hassen people's deaths?
You are being particularly obtuse on purpose.
The poster you were responding to was absolutely correct. No you can't tell from these figures how many people died because they were told they were fit for work (probably only a very small number) but you can definitely tell the Fitness for Work Assessment is appallingly bad if in just a 3 year period over 2,500 people have died within 14 days of being found "fit for work". Of course a small minority might have died from accidents or genuinely been fit for work then coincidentally passed away at the time. But although it cannot be conclusively proved beyond doubt from these figures the vast majority had to be very ill people having benefits stopped as being found fit.
I think you are missing the point. The people wrongly declared fit for work are unable to do those jobs. A lot of conditions are variable, and that makes people unemployable. The issue then is that those people then end up on UB and subject to sanctions. Guessing you haven' thought this through - or you don't know what you are talking about. I will go for the first one as I'm being nice today.
You are changing the subject but I will be kind today and assume this was an accident rather than a cynical attempt at whataboutery.
How do you know they are unable to do these jobs? Rather than very unwilling to actually go to work?
Considering the number of people on disability and sickness benefits the number dying is statistically horrifying. Or didn't you think of that.
So why not the same outcry when the number was 14% worse under Labour?.
No one wants anyone to die but statistically someone on sickness or disability benefit is always going to be at a higher risk of dying than someone who is not no matter how much money they are or are not given. Or didn't you think of that?
So why not the same outcry when the number was 14% worse under Labour?.
No one wants anyone to die but statistically someone on sickness or disability benefit is always going to be at a higher risk of dying than someone who is not no matter how much money they are or are not given. Or didn't you think of that?
So do you think these masses of people were 'fit for work' despite dropping down dead a few days later?
We can all play the fool, yet we all know the truth and so do you.
The poster you were responding to was absolutely correct. No you can't tell from these figures how many people died because they were told they were fit for work (probably only a very small number) but you can definitely tell the Fitness for Work Assessment is appallingly bad if in just a 3 year period over 2,500 people have died within 14 days of being found "fit for work". Of course a small minority might have died from accidents or genuinely been fit for work then coincidentally passed away at the time. But although it cannot be conclusively proved beyond doubt from these figures the vast majority had to be very ill people having benefits stopped as being found fit.
Not all these people are ill. Many have conditions or disabilities. Having a condition or disability does not mean you can not work.
I think you are missing the point. The people wrongly declared fit for work are unable to do those jobs. A lot of conditions are variable, and that makes people unemployable. The issue then is that those people then end up on UB and subject to sanctions. Guessing you haven' thought this through - or you don't know what you are talking about. I will go for the first one as I'm being nice today.
But they are not getting to stage of having to claim JSA and being sanctioned. They are dying at most a few days after receiving the decision letter. They are receiving IB/ESA and the 2 weeks later they are dead. The exact order of events in those 2 weeks is unknown. All that is know is the start and end positions. Any IB/ESA has stopped because the death. It may possibly stop for other reasons in the future weeks, but HASN'T at the date of death.
Comments
So weirlandia4eva was correct - the figures in themselves prove nothing.
It's also very sad knowing that Ian Duncan Smith is still alive.
Its all the worry caused too, waiting a year to appeal against the decision. The stress and worry caused especially for vulnerable people.
It was worrying for me , i was so depressed, its unbelievable
Exactly.
Doctor's regularly pass people fit only for them to keel over soon afterwards.
And doctors have told people they only have weeks to live only for them to live years.
But the DWP is not allowed to make the same errors or IDS is being called a serial killer.
Laughable.
Anyone trying to defend this need to have a serious word with themselves.
This isn't about party politics, this is about being a human being.
But we have already established that many people fit for work die every year.
Being fit for work doesn't mean you will not die.
Obviously there are always mistakes. But Doctors would get the sack if they get so many cases that wrong.
no-one is saying that anyone died BECAUSE they were found fit for work
no-one is saying that people who are fit for work dont die day in day out
what these numbers are highlighting is a flaw in the WCA that so many people are dying within weeks of a system, already riddled with problems, declaring them fit for work
So deaths amongst benefit claimants have fallen by 12% from 2003 to 2013 yet everyone is up in arms. People on benefits will unfortunately die, they always have and they always will. Similarly people who are not on benefits die unexpectedly whether that is heart attack, stroke or any other means. Surely the fact that the numbers have gone down is a good thing. There has been no direct correlation that the sanctions have affected this in an adverse way.
... and the apologists are off - again!
Considering the number of people on disability and sickness benefits the number dying is statistically horrifying. Or didn't you think of that.
Being declared fit for work can mean you are fit to be a telephone receptionist or a data entry clerk. Do you really think these kind of jobs hassen people's deaths?
I think you are missing the point. The people wrongly declared fit for work are unable to do those jobs. A lot of conditions are variable, and that makes people unemployable. The issue then is that those people then end up on UB and subject to sanctions. Guessing you haven' thought this through - or you don't know what you are talking about. I will go for the first one as I'm being nice today.
where did i say that ?
the point is people with terminal illnesses and likely to die within a period of weeks should not be getting declared fit for work in the first place by under qualified private contractors
i'm out of this thread as its actually depressing me reading some of these comments
That is a large drop in death rates. So large that IMO it seems odd and possibly wrong in some way.
You are being particularly obtuse on purpose.
The poster you were responding to was absolutely correct. No you can't tell from these figures how many people died because they were told they were fit for work (probably only a very small number) but you can definitely tell the Fitness for Work Assessment is appallingly bad if in just a 3 year period over 2,500 people have died within 14 days of being found "fit for work". Of course a small minority might have died from accidents or genuinely been fit for work then coincidentally passed away at the time. But although it cannot be conclusively proved beyond doubt from these figures the vast majority had to be very ill people having benefits stopped as being found fit.
These are people who have been turned down for benefits. They weren't on benefits.
These people were told they were fit for work yet dropped dead within two weeks.
You are changing the subject but I will be kind today and assume this was an accident rather than a cynical attempt at whataboutery.
How do you know they are unable to do these jobs? Rather than very unwilling to actually go to work?
Well, they pretty much immediately dropped down dead.
So why not the same outcry when the number was 14% worse under Labour?.
No one wants anyone to die but statistically someone on sickness or disability benefit is always going to be at a higher risk of dying than someone who is not no matter how much money they are or are not given. Or didn't you think of that?
So do you think these masses of people were 'fit for work' despite dropping down dead a few days later?
We can all play the fool, yet we all know the truth and so do you.
Not all these people are ill. Many have conditions or disabilities. Having a condition or disability does not mean you can not work.