I get that JMS is a great writer but in the end you get the feeling we could've had a lot more B5 over the years if he'd just been slightly more willing to compromise.
I get that the show we got wasn't the show he planned and he got burnt from this network demanding X and such, but every time it looks like there's a sliver of light he shuts it down because things aren't exactly the way he wants it.
Well, welcome to the world of television, Joe, you should've worked that out by now!
I'm not saying, by any means, completely compromise your ideas, allow them to put girls in bikinis on the bridge, abandon arcs in favour of a complete monster of the week episode, have them visit planet of the nymphomaniacs with a surprisingly large space armada and ensure there is a huge space battle and explosions every episode with little in the way of Character development, but if he just learnt how to play the game a little bit we'd probably have had a considerable chunk more B5 by now.
How many times have we got our hopes up only to be told the network were jerks, there was a football game on that hurt ratings, the DVDs sold too well (!), it was too windy to start filming that day, there was a scary dog on set, William Shatner demanded a part and wouldn't leave etc etc...
At some point you have to just get it done or give up completely and stop teasing the fanbase before they disappear.
Red Dwarf learnt this after a decade of teasing about a movie and chasing up wild gooses. B5 should've too at some point, then maybe we'd have got Crusade, or LOTR, or the Lost Tales, or heck Bablyon Prime or something!
JMS you're an amazing writer, you ever thought of hiring a showrunner to deal with the networks?
Here endeth the rant
(P.S. I never want to see another pasted forum post from the man himself hinting at a future B5 project ever again. Been there, got burnt a million times! If it's ever on my screen again, I'll believe it then )
I agree to an extent, it does get incredibly frustrating to get tantalised time after time, which then all comes to nought.
Having said that, I guess where Joe's coming from is that as far as he's concerned B5 is near as damn it perfect. He's tried the compromise route, didn't work with Crusade. Didn't work with LotR or The Lost Tales either. I can appreciate that he doesn't want to give away enough such that it ends up detracting from the franchise rather than adding to it, and to a degree I applaud him having the ability to do that (wish someone had had that power over Star Trek in the days of Voyager and Enterprise!), but yes, you're right, if that's the route that Joe wants to take then for the love of God stop teasing us already!
Of course this being said, WBs should also take their fair share of the blame too - they should have offered up more $$$ for more Lost Tales, and they should have trusted Joe with The Memory of Shadows.
TNT's attitude should come in for some criticism too, but ultimately we DID get the fifth season out of them, and we DID get a few decent movies out of them as well. Shame about Crusade, a real shame, but by all accounts the show they wanted would have had to have been drastically different to the one that Joe wanted to tell in order to attract TNT's kind of audience.
I didn't realise so many people didn't like Jerry, he was always one of my favourites, maybe because he looked like Bruce. I always loved the scene where he goes to bust some heads when disbanding the watch and take his turf back.
I actually thought Jerry Doyle was the 'most improved' actor on the show. In Season 1 he was VERY rough but by the end of the show he was pretty decent, especially for someone who wasn't a formally-trained actor. He did his learning on the job and got better as he went.
I mean, he's a right-winger (and was at the time; he and Stephen Furst who's very liberal apparently had some epic political debates on-set) but AFAIK he's not a fascist or anything like that.
Something that is interesting is that Doyle was - allegedly - very unhappy with O'Hare in the first season. We know now that O'Hare was ill, but this could manifest as very irrational and sometimes even offensive behaviour on-set. Doyle tolerated it up to a point but then said no more, and either O'Hare would have to go or him. Apparently he was backed up by some other actors and that, combined with O'Hare making clear the extent of his illness to JMS, led to O'Hare's departure. Clearly a very difficult situation for everyone involved, and Doyle could have lost his job over it, but felt he had to speak up. Incidentally, this is reportedly why O'Hare and Doyle didn't share any screen time in 'War Without End'.
I would love to see a HD upgrade and was thinking the other day surely it can't be that expensive? if you read through the archives at JMSNews.com I remember reading that back in the day they were using Amiga's and that each frame took almost 24 hours to render. With modern computing power surely WB could get a small team together to slog through this.
Actually, it would. Foundation Imaging were the first CGI house to sign up to produce that quantity of effects work for a TV show, and basically hugely under-valued what their work was worth. Their deal also meant that they got paid per-season, not per-shot (no effects house would do that now), so they effectively got paid the same amount for 'Severed Dreams' (with its 130-odd CGI shots) as for an episode like 'Believers' (which had maybe 7 or 8). This is why B5 - I believe - retains the record for the most number of CGI effects shots in a 44-minute TV episode ever achieved and even shows with higher budgets like BSG and even GAME OF THRONES have never really gotten close to it.
To reproduce 'Severed Dreams' in HD by itself would probably cost an absolute fortune in today's money.
I get that JMS is a great writer but in the end you get the feeling we could've had a lot more B5 over the years if he'd just been slightly more willing to compromise.
I get that the show we got wasn't the show he planned and he got burnt from this network demanding X and such, but every time it looks like there's a sliver of light he shuts it down because things aren't exactly the way he wants it.
Well, welcome to the world of television, Joe, you should've worked that out by now!
JMS was right to stick to his guns. And the fact that B5 was so good pretty much proves that. He did it how he wanted on his terms and pretty much created an all time classic.
Would you really have wanted to see a B5 movie where all the actors were recast or small budget straight to DVD that ultimately did little to further the story.
No I always admired him for this, he gave us quality over quantity.
Just catching up on this week's episodes. I'd forgotten how good the War Without End two parter is, and how much I loved Zathras - definitely my favourite secondary character.
I'm looking forward to watching And The Rock Cried Out later (though I'll be singing it all weekend!).
Just catching up on this week's episodes. I'd forgotten how good the War Without End two parter is, and how much I loved Zathras - definitely my favourite secondary character.
I'm looking forward to watching And The Rock Cried Out later (though I'll be singing it all weekend!).
I went to the rock to hide my face but the rock cried out no hiding place!
Much better than the god awful songs they got Erica Gimpel to sing in 'Walkabout'.
Some people don't listen lol. Just watched the Z'ha'dum episode which I thought came much latter. I really did not watch this series right the first time around and memories are a bit miss.
Into Season 4 - probably still my favourite. The pacing of the overall narrative, especially in the latter half of the season is just break-neck. You hardly get the time to catch your breath!
Into Season 4 - probably still my favourite. The pacing of the overall narrative, especially in the latter half of the season is just break-neck. You hardly get the time to catch your breath!
What i loved about Babylon was the narrative was just right for me as a viewer to be able take it all in. It went a nice steady pace without me getting bored.
We're now into series 5 on Watch and I'm not enjoying it as much now.......
I don't like this storyline of Byron and his groupies
And the ridiculous thing with waiting half a dozen episodes before telling us that Sheridan and the new Captain were married..........that looks like a desperate last minute attempt to make her interesting..........:o
The best development of late has been Lando and G'Kar becoming pally......:D
I also enjoyed that recent episode of the attack on the station as seen through the eyes of Bo and Mac, the two grunts in overalls........:D. Abbott and Costello !
I've watched up to the end of the Shadow War, but I've too many shows on the go at the moment - about to get worse with Game of Thrones re starting and I hadn't realised Continuum and Hannibal were back on.
I've got over a dozen B5 episodes on the Tivo - still something to keep me going through the summer telly drought I suppose:)
We're now into series 5 on Watch and I'm not enjoying it as much now.......
I don't like this storyline of Byron and his groupies
And the ridiculous thing with waiting half a dozen episodes before telling us that Sheridan and the new Captain were married..........that looks like a desperate last minute attempt to make her interesting..........:o
The best development of late has been Lando and G'Kar becoming pally......:D
I also enjoyed that recent episode of the attack on the station as seen through the eyes of Bo and Mac, the two grunts in overalls........:D. Abbott and Costello !
I agree about Byron and his bunch of hippies. The ridiculous song alone meant I was on Bester's side! I also agree about Londo and G'Kar, best double act since Rebo and Zooty!
Bo and Mac was a good episode but with a few cringeworthy moments.
I'd say right up until the conclusion of the Byron storyline season 5 is below par but then it picks up and it's a roller coaster to the end. I still bawl my eyes out at the culmination of the finale.
One thing that annoyed me hugely about tonight's episode.
I know a clue was needed to point to the Centauri involvement in the attacks on Alliance shipping but are we really supposed to believe that a secret group of Centauri soldiers infiltrating the Drazi Homeworld would leave their palace guard uniforms on!?!!? That's stretching credulity to breaking point.
I can now understand why people say seasons 3-4 were the best. So many holy s*** moments and twists. Season 5 has really slowed things down. Before I had to watch the next episode now I am in no rush. Perhaps its almost ended and I don't want it to finish
Darkness Ascending is the ep I need to watch next. Bugger it I watch "In the beginning" first lol
I've been looking for legit and less-legit ways to get even just the first season of this to give it a try. Eventually I found I could buy single episodes on iTunes for £1.49 a pop. Worth it?
You really won't get much from a single episode, B5 is a slow burner and its genius is in the detail, sometimes you are not even aware of a significant event until a few episodes down the line. I recently watched the pilot (special edition) and was amazed at how well after all these year it still holds up and flows really well but that is due to all the foreshadowing.
If that is the first episode someone watches it might put them off, but if you have staying power and want to see a epic 5 year story then go for it just don't expect instant gratification.
Comments
http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2014/01/babylon-5-turns-20-creator-j-michael-straczynski-reflects-on-the-shows-legacy.html
I already shared that on the last page
I agree to an extent, it does get incredibly frustrating to get tantalised time after time, which then all comes to nought.
Having said that, I guess where Joe's coming from is that as far as he's concerned B5 is near as damn it perfect. He's tried the compromise route, didn't work with Crusade. Didn't work with LotR or The Lost Tales either. I can appreciate that he doesn't want to give away enough such that it ends up detracting from the franchise rather than adding to it, and to a degree I applaud him having the ability to do that (wish someone had had that power over Star Trek in the days of Voyager and Enterprise!), but yes, you're right, if that's the route that Joe wants to take then for the love of God stop teasing us already!
Of course this being said, WBs should also take their fair share of the blame too - they should have offered up more $$$ for more Lost Tales, and they should have trusted Joe with The Memory of Shadows.
TNT's attitude should come in for some criticism too, but ultimately we DID get the fifth season out of them, and we DID get a few decent movies out of them as well. Shame about Crusade, a real shame, but by all accounts the show they wanted would have had to have been drastically different to the one that Joe wanted to tell in order to attract TNT's kind of audience.
I actually thought Jerry Doyle was the 'most improved' actor on the show. In Season 1 he was VERY rough but by the end of the show he was pretty decent, especially for someone who wasn't a formally-trained actor. He did his learning on the job and got better as he went.
I mean, he's a right-winger (and was at the time; he and Stephen Furst who's very liberal apparently had some epic political debates on-set) but AFAIK he's not a fascist or anything like that.
Something that is interesting is that Doyle was - allegedly - very unhappy with O'Hare in the first season. We know now that O'Hare was ill, but this could manifest as very irrational and sometimes even offensive behaviour on-set. Doyle tolerated it up to a point but then said no more, and either O'Hare would have to go or him. Apparently he was backed up by some other actors and that, combined with O'Hare making clear the extent of his illness to JMS, led to O'Hare's departure. Clearly a very difficult situation for everyone involved, and Doyle could have lost his job over it, but felt he had to speak up. Incidentally, this is reportedly why O'Hare and Doyle didn't share any screen time in 'War Without End'.
Actually, it would. Foundation Imaging were the first CGI house to sign up to produce that quantity of effects work for a TV show, and basically hugely under-valued what their work was worth. Their deal also meant that they got paid per-season, not per-shot (no effects house would do that now), so they effectively got paid the same amount for 'Severed Dreams' (with its 130-odd CGI shots) as for an episode like 'Believers' (which had maybe 7 or 8). This is why B5 - I believe - retains the record for the most number of CGI effects shots in a 44-minute TV episode ever achieved and even shows with higher budgets like BSG and even GAME OF THRONES have never really gotten close to it.
To reproduce 'Severed Dreams' in HD by itself would probably cost an absolute fortune in today's money.
I like how they put the two parts of this episode together with Babylon Squared.
I lost it a bit during this 2-parter......all this jumping forwards and backwards in time is too much for my brain
I wandered off and made my tea and left them to it.....
JMS was right to stick to his guns. And the fact that B5 was so good pretty much proves that. He did it how he wanted on his terms and pretty much created an all time classic.
Would you really have wanted to see a B5 movie where all the actors were recast or small budget straight to DVD that ultimately did little to further the story.
No I always admired him for this, he gave us quality over quantity.
I'm looking forward to watching And The Rock Cried Out later (though I'll be singing it all weekend!).
I went to the rock to hide my face but the rock cried out no hiding place!
Much better than the god awful songs they got Erica Gimpel to sing in 'Walkabout'.
Some people don't listen lol. Just watched the Z'ha'dum episode which I thought came much latter. I really did not watch this series right the first time around and memories are a bit miss.
What i loved about Babylon was the narrative was just right for me as a viewer to be able take it all in. It went a nice steady pace without me getting bored.
I don't like this storyline of Byron and his groupies
And the ridiculous thing with waiting half a dozen episodes before telling us that Sheridan and the new Captain were married..........that looks like a desperate last minute attempt to make her interesting..........:o
The best development of late has been Lando and G'Kar becoming pally......:D
I also enjoyed that recent episode of the attack on the station as seen through the eyes of Bo and Mac, the two grunts in overalls........:D. Abbott and Costello !
I've got over a dozen B5 episodes on the Tivo - still something to keep me going through the summer telly drought I suppose:)
I agree about Byron and his bunch of hippies. The ridiculous song alone meant I was on Bester's side! I also agree about Londo and G'Kar, best double act since Rebo and Zooty!
Bo and Mac was a good episode but with a few cringeworthy moments.
I'd say right up until the conclusion of the Byron storyline season 5 is below par but then it picks up and it's a roller coaster to the end. I still bawl my eyes out at the culmination of the finale.
I watched the penultimate episode on Watch yesterday and there's no episode now until Tuesday because of easter
So we've got a four day gap before the final episode !
TBH.......I think it's been tailing off a bit in the last couple of weeks so although I've enjoyed the show very much I'm not disappointed it's ending
By the way..........it starts again on Wednesday with episode 1, series 1
Darkness Ascending is the ep I need to watch next. Bugger it I watch "In the beginning" first lol
If that is the first episode someone watches it might put them off, but if you have staying power and want to see a epic 5 year story then go for it just don't expect instant gratification.