Reset or Regeneration
Sufyaan_Kazi
Posts: 3,862 Forum Member
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I know there is a similar thread talking about regenerations and incarnations and faces but i wanted to guage peoples interpretation on Capaldi only and the future of Doctor Who, I'm not interested in past incarnations in this thread.
I've noticed a different interpretation of TOTD than I had, from other posters and YouTube (Emergency Awesome) mainly. Is Capaldi the result of the first regeneration of the new regen cycle? I. E. Can the doc now only regenerate 11 more times because one was used to shift from Smith to Capaldi? I just assumed the shift was a reset - ie there are still 12 regenerations available.
I've noticed a different interpretation of TOTD than I had, from other posters and YouTube (Emergency Awesome) mainly. Is Capaldi the result of the first regeneration of the new regen cycle? I. E. Can the doc now only regenerate 11 more times because one was used to shift from Smith to Capaldi? I just assumed the shift was a reset - ie there are still 12 regenerations available.
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I think in solving the Regeneration issue to get it out the way Moffat has created a few more questions, but at least they don't need to be answered for a few more years :-)
That's my interpretation!
He tells Clara "this is just the reset" when she sees him looking young again, then he completes his regeneration which he said himself was "regeneration number 13"
...so I think we should take it that he has (12+12)-13 = 11 left
Hmm, I'm beginning to switch opinion now and agree with you. Reset happened on the clock tower. When Clara saw Matt in the Tardis afterwards he said it was just the reset. He then "regenerated" into Capaldi. The regeneration was very quick because it was the first regeneration of the new cycle. Future regenerations will be longer and gradually more violent.
BiB: BUT The Doctor also said "it's taking a little longer, just breaking it in" so was the regeneration quicker or slower? The final 'switch' was quicker but was the bit on the clock tower the start of the regeneration and (like DT before him) the regeneration energy healed him of any age related problems first (reset the body to young) then carried on working underneath until the final "BOOM/SWITCH"?
No doubt Steven will tell us at some point if we bang on about it enough
edit: To answer your original question....not a clue. I can see arguments both ways on it. It wasn't a regeneration but was a resetting of whatever biomechanical method it is they use to regenerate (hence it being more powerful), so there's 12 left. Or it was the first regeneration of the new cycle, meaning 11 left. From the words in the script "Regeneration number 13 boys" I think we're on safer ground assuming, as said above, that we have 11 left (12+12)-13 = 11.
Again, if we need to know it will be thrown into a script that people can complain about at some point in the future ;-)
Chances are they might leave that not dealt with till many years into the future, when the Doctor has regenerated 24 times!
Which would mean its not dealt with by Moffat.
Unless he comes back and says "I had this long term plan you see, and it's something like this......"
Well, he's put the question off for another few decades...
I guess it's annoying that we're going to have to go through this process each and everytime, albeit decades apart.
And all because Robert Holmes retconned the nature of a Timelord with a throwaway line just to provide the Master with a motive in 'The Deadly Assassin'.
Prior to that, the Doctor had been very clear that, barring accidents, Timelords could live forever (The War Games).
Regards,
Cypher
Now thats just funny, but thats also considering he is still alive to do the 100th show! Or whenever it is that 24 regens have happened, I think someone said at least 36years if all 12 (including Pete. Cap.), go for 3 years each, if some go longer who knows 'Who' knows!
I've said before that I wouldn't have cared a bit of the limit had never been addressed. Yes it's there in Classic episodes but, as far as I recall, it's never come up since 2005 so new viewers or casuals wouldn't have had a clue about it. I know some people don't like it when past continuity is ignored but sometimes it can help a programme to not get too bogged down. If it had to be addressed, I guess a "the Time Lords used to control the number of times we could regenerate to prevent one person getting all powerful, but with them gone....all bets are off" line could have solved it.
Anyway, that's mostly off topic, so I'll drop it now
But my take was that he was given a whole new cycle of (re)generations. Somehow he has to bridge the gap between Doc1 Body 13 and Doc2 Body1. That doesn't necessarily imply a REgeneration, but it does involve a lot of energy (which he used to kill the Daleks (again)). So a total of 26 bodies, until the next fudge.
That said, it makes life a lot easier if we simply say that he's been given a top-up of his existing regenerations credits. So a total of 25 bodies.
In conclusion: my head hurts.
Gary
It all kind of reminds me of the old US comedy Soap: "Confused? You will be. Tune in next week when..."
I don't think we're meant to think about all this to the depths we all seem to be doing to be honest. Bit of advice though? Don't go using terms like Doc2 Body1 on here. You'll have body parts chopped off at the mere suggestion that he may now be a different person than the 13 who've gone before him. Seriously. Run. Hide. Now.
25 bodies if he'd used his 11th regeneration appropriately,
However...
2 regeneration cycles = 24 regenerations = 25 incarnations
...minus 1 wasted on healing himself and creating the Human Doctor = 24 incarnations (unless you count the "Lonely God" Ten and the "Timelord Victorious" Ten as 2 incarnations)
...minus 1 "Warrior/Renegade/War Doctor" leaves 23 numbered Doctors.
So as it stands at the moment, until we're told otherwise (which we eventually will be no doubt) the Doctor has got 11 regenerations left which, barring "acts of vanity" will take him to the end of his 24th Incarnation who, unless another incarnation in between takes a different name, will be the Twenty-Third Doctor
The Second Doctor said he could live "...indefinitely, barring accidents..." which, in light of the First Doctor's physical aging causing him to need to "renew" (it wasn't "regenerating" back then I don't think) himself, implies he can do this an indefinite number of times.
Then of course there's the "Morbius" Doctors, as some like to call them.
The eight faces see in The Brain Of Morbius after the Third, Second and First Doctors' faces, implying, particularly when you consider Morbius' "How long Doctor? How long have you lived?", that these were another eight incarnations that preceded Hartnell which would have made the Fourth Doctor the Twelfth Incarnation.
Fast forward then from early '76 to late '76 and we have The Deadly Assasin telling us that Time Lords can only regenerate 12 times, which if you take the "Morbius Doctors" as being previous incarnations would have meant that he only had one regeneration left.
It was the intent of the production team at the time to suggest that they could be previous incarnations, so that is what was to be assumed by the audience until it was directly stated that they weren't, which happened in The Five Doctors with...
FIRST DOCTOR: "The ORIGINAL" you might say
...and...
FIRST DOCTOR: Regeneration?
FIFTH DOCTOR: Fourth
FIRST DOCTOR: Ah, So there are FIVE of me now.
Then of course...
Richard E.Grant was the official Ninth Doctor ...until he wasn't
There was no way of breaking the time lock ...until there was
Christopher Eccleston's Ninth Doctor was the ninth incarnation ...until he wasn't
The Doctor was limited to 12 regenerations ...until he wasn't
Moffat has a great knack for commenting on the show itself, on other people's take on it, and on the attitudes of fandom in his stories...
"Don't tell me the rules"
So things can change, showrunners change, and with that there's a change in what is and what isn't on the table as far as adhering to "the rules" goes, and that's good, it makes for more surprises
So yeah, "It's only canon until it isn't".
But for now, the 12th Doctor (13th incarnation) has 11/24 regenerations left
It reminds me of what they said about that show 'Big Brother', that they reserve the right to change the rules!
Although with Doctor Who they need to do it in such a way as it would seem realistic!
After all the 11th Doctor lived for about 1000 years so barring accidents a Time Lord may live a minimum of 13,000 years also maybe the TARDIS slows down the ageing process even more plus if they keep getting another regeneration cycle then I guess they could live forever
BUT this issue has always been solved, and Moffat solved it in the same way, as far back as The Five Doctors in the 80s when the High Council offered The Master a completely new regeneration cycle if he helped them. So it was always laid out that the Time Lords can grant entire new cycles.
Clearly they did do it with The Master off screen at some point as he regenerates in Utopia. So in the Time of the Doctor, the Time Lords, once being told by Clara, grant The Doctor a new regeneration cycle otherwise they'd be up the creek without a paddle if the only man to help them had died by running out of Regenerations.
I don't see what the issue is or what's a cop out about as some people have said, what Moffat's done is pretty much true to the Classic Era.
I did make a joke once about Moffat's first TV job being the person who wrote the clue-rhymes for 3-2-1. And people believed me.
"I've had this old broom for 25 years. Only had to change the head four times and the handle twice."
Gary
Perhaps granting new cycles was absolutely the normal way of things, but that you'd obviously need to have access to some Thing of Rassilon to be able to do it? So a Time Lord could live forever, as long as he or she was able to return to the Thing of Rassilon to be topped up?
Is it only renegades like the Doctor and the Master that need to worry about running out?
This happened in Colin Bakers era right, Twin Dilemma?
Lord President in The Deadly Assasin?
Gary
I don't know either episode that well, but the synopsis for DA suggests the President was assassinated? In which case I would presume that regeneration, or the necessary prevention thereof, would have been taken into account?
Seems I was right to think of Twin Dilemma. However, it does not relate to the original question - my apologies, as I believe it was being asked about a Timleord in Gallifrey in good standing at the end of his regeneration cycle. the example I was thinking of was a Timelord who had been forced to do things against his will by an evil villain and the timelord wasn't on Gallifrey. Here's the quotes from Wikipedia:
"The Doctor suddenly recognises Edgeworth as an old friend - Azmael, master of Jaconda, whom he last saw two incarnations ago.
..........
Then Azmael, in his last regeneration, forces himself to regenerate — killing himself — and in doing so destroys Mestor. Dying, Azmael says he has no regrets and that one of his fondest memories was a time spent with the Doctor by a fountain."
You can watch the scene here http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa3t6k_the-twin-dilemma-part7_shortfilms at about 15:50 to get the full context, it lasts about 4-5 mins in total.