As LTE wouldn't offer voice, currently at least, it shouldn't be trying to use it for an emergency call (or ANY call). For all intents and purposes if it fails to find 3G (or 2G in the very few places left with 2G roaming) then it has no service and looks elsewhere.
It's all theoretical anyway, as it hasn't been set up this way. It possibly should have been, but with VoLTE around the corner, it's just a matter of waiting now.
As LTE wouldn't offer voice, currently at least, it shouldn't be trying to use it for an emergency call (or ANY call). For all intents and purposes if it fails to find 3G (or 2G in the very few places left with 2G roaming) then it has no service and looks elsewhere.
It's all theoretical anyway, as it hasn't been set up this way. It possibly should have been, but with VoLTE around the corner, it's just a matter of waiting now.
It's not trying to use the LTE network for a voice call, but does receive the direction from the LTE network as to where to make the call, which will direct it to 3s 3G network. Unless you press the green button for an emergency call when up it of coverage from your network, it will not look elsewhere. (It's all to do with the state machine in the standards where you can only do network selection in idle).
With CSFB on LTE, you are dual registered on the LTE a core (for data) and the 3G CS core for voice calls, so even on LTE, according to the network you are registered on a voice network.
Fraid not. If you have LTE coverage, if you try to make a call it'll hunt around 3s 3G network for coverage and then fail. The phone will then search around and end up back on the LTE network, so you'd basically end up with a complete voice coverage hole, including emergency calls. This is why current LTE coverage is restricted to give a high probability of coverage from the operators own voice network.
You'll only end up on another operators network to make an emergency call in the absence of ALL coverage from your own PLMN.
It's not trying to use the LTE network for a voice call, but does receive the direction from the LTE network as to where to make the call, which will direct it to 3s 3G network. Unless you press the green button for an emergency call when up it of coverage from your network, it will not look elsewhere. (It's all to do with the state machine in the standards where you can only do network selection in idle).
With CSFB on LTE, you are dual registered on the LTE a core (for data) and the 3G CS core for voice calls, so even on LTE, according to the network you are registered on a voice network.
Oh My F....... Flippin God!!!!!
Where have you been this last 2 years.............???
Now it all makes sense.
You Sir, are a genius.
Now I can see why LTE is on low power.. It all falls into place.
I bloody knew it was on low power.
No it isn't some said, it's all to do with the way LTE calculates dBM.. etc etc.... bollocks bollocks....
Around here, where there is a lone 4G mast with no other one in close proximity it is totally obvious.
I am estimating 30-40% power for LTE.
In line of sight it can go 8Km easily but go just around a corner, in a car or slightly down a hill out of sight and nothing.. back to 3-4 bars 3G (from the same mast I hasten to add. I Know, I've worn the anorak and used the rather excellent field test on my iPhone).
You have also just explained why it's lower than 3G, not 2G.
3G can of course reign it's coverage in under load so LTE has to be set low enough to be within 3Gs smallest coverage footprint?
Am I right?
So are we doomed to have this low power until everyone has VoLTE enabled handsets?
Oh dear. What a balls up!
Totally excellent video by the way. told me more in 3 and a half minutes than I have learnt in 3 years!!!
Hang on. I've just realised something.
We were talking about 3 (who don't have 2G) hence why the LTE power is so low.
But why is it just as low on EE. They have a much stronger 2G network yet the LTE power still seems set lower than 3G??
Don't get it.
Also just realised I must have been tired last night since the video taught me nothing.
It was pre release 10 and they were talking about a lack of CS fallback, not power levels.
It was RAN Man's 2 posts that had the killer info!
Video was funny though
Yeah, I guess 3G and LTE are more closely related.
LTE to 2G falback probably unreliable and in the case of what RAN Man was saying it may well be that it doesn't hunt for 2G at all and comes back to LTE with no voice.
Or something...
Under the current situation then I see no time in the near future where they will be able to turn the power up.
Seems a bit bonkers to me to spend all that money and then go and nobble the whole thing.
I have noticed doing some testing around here that I often don't have 4G in the car.
If I pull up and get out though....4G! Get back in, ...3G!
There are many places where the low signal won;t even penetrate a car. Brilliant!
At the moment it's very much outdoor, line of sight.
So much for using it to get superfast to rural areas then.
How can three ever hope to launch 800mhz 4g any time in the next few years if these requirements are to be believed?
I don't know.
I was hoping RAN Man could shed some light on it.
How can anyone launch 800 is what I'm thinking.
If the requirement is that there must be CS voice available at all times (when a 4G signal is being picked up), then currently that's fine.
Well it's not fine, it's low power which is not fine but anyway, we know how that works.
If however they launch 800 soon, unless they run that at such a low level that the whole point of having it is negated, why would they even bother in the first place.
Someone somewhere at some point (with a handset that does 800 but not voice) is going to have a usable 800 data signal but absolutely no access to a switched voice circuit.
I don't know.
I was hoping RAN Man could shed some light on it.
How can anyone launch 800 is what I'm thinking.
If the requirement is that there must be CS voice available at all times (when a 4G signal is being picked up), then currently that's fine.
Well it's not fine, it's low power which is not fine but anyway, we know how that works.
My iPhone 6 on Vodafone picks up 800mhz 4G in an old peoples home where EE has no service (or GPRS if you're by a window). EE has full service 2G,3G,4G right outside. Vodafone has for years had no 3G and 900mhz 2G here outdoors, and poor signal indoors, often "no service".
I forgot to try to make a call - if I ever go back I will try. I managed 55mbps download on a speedtest where EE had no signal in an area where EE is generally considered better. I assume its coincidence and there is a Voda 4G transmitter in line with the window or something!
In other locations I have also seen my iPhone 6 on Voda go direct from 4G to 2G, so I assume Voda and O2 will have set things up to do this with CSFB given their 900mhz 2G coverage.
My iPhone 6 on Vodafone picks up 800mhz 4G in an old peoples home where EE has no service (or GPRS if you're by a window). EE has full service 2G,3G,4G right outside. Vodafone has for years had no 3G and 900mhz 2G here outdoors, and poor signal indoors, often "no service".
I forgot to try to make a call - if I ever go back I will try. I managed 55mbps download on a speedtest where EE had no signal in an area where EE is generally considered better. I assume its coincidence and there is a Voda 4G transmitter in line with the window or something!
In other locations I have also seen my iPhone 6 on Voda go direct from 4G to 2G, so I assume Voda and O2 will have set things up to do this with CSFB given their 900mhz 2G coverage.
Could be down to the material the old people's home is made out of quite a few of them are old buildings so 800MHz would be better than 1800MHz getting through. Though obviously it could also be down to fact that EE mast is further away. There will always be places where one network is better than another reason I've always said people need test where they go before they change networks.
For 800, where the coverage footprint is significantly higher than the underlying voice coverage (2G or 3G for EE and 3 mainly) there are a few things the operators can do.
1. Limit it to VoLTE devices only.
2. Limit non VoLTE devices to the footprint within the equivalent voice footprint
If you're adding it for capacity 2. is an option but adds no improvement to coverage.
If you're adding it for coverage, 1. is the only option
For 800, where the coverage footprint is significantly higher than the underlying voice coverage (2G or 3G for EE and 3 mainly) there are a few things the operators can do.
1. Limit it to VoLTE devices only.
2. Limit non VoLTE devices to the footprint within the equivalent voice footprint
If you're adding it for capacity 2. is an option but adds no improvement to coverage.
If you're adding it for coverage, 1. is the only option
Well for EE it would obviously be first but Three would have to be the second as it won't be for capacity in a lot of areas but the primary spectrum they use.
Assume though that all mobile data sims would be exempt from these rules as they only need the data nothing else.
Could be down to the material the old people's home is made out of quite a few of them are old buildings so 800MHz would be better than 1800MHz getting through. Though obviously it could also be down to fact that EE mast is further away. There will always be places where one network is better than another reason I've always said people need test where they go before they change networks.
We're pretty sure all the networks cell sites are on the water tower which is up the hill. There is a bit of a geographical oddity. The building itself is a 1998 build modern style with an extension built 2010. The village this place is in quite small, and I've not noticed any other masts apart from on the (very high) water tower.
The O2 website (shows masts) shows their mast (2G, 3G, 4G) in the water tower location and nothing anywhere near. So it could be some RF oddity that makes it work in this flat in the old peoples home, maybe not in any other !!
For 800, where the coverage footprint is significantly higher than the underlying voice coverage (2G or 3G for EE and 3 mainly) there are a few things the operators can do.
1. Limit it to VoLTE devices only.
2. Limit non VoLTE devices to the footprint within the equivalent voice footprint
If you're adding it for capacity 2. is an option but adds no improvement to coverage.
If you're adding it for coverage, 1. is the only option
Is this done at the network level or at the device software level?
Well for EE it would obviously be first but Three would have to be the second as it won't be for capacity in a lot of areas but the primary spectrum they use.
Given EE has 2G and 4G at the same 1800 frequency, there should be no issue with CSFB yet even EE hasn't set 4G power the same as 2G. That surprised me.
Assume though that all mobile data sims would be exempt from these rules as they only need the data nothing else.
Given EE has 2G and 4G at the same 1800 frequency, there should be no issue with CSFB yet even EE hasn't set 4G power the same as 2G. That surprised me.
That would be logical.
I think it's down to fact CSFB prefers going to 3G not 2G so it needs be set at 3G level not 2G level. I've never seen my phone on EE drop from 4G to 2G so far.
I think it's down to fact CSFB prefers going to 3G not 2G so it needs be set at 3G level not 2G level. I've never seen my phone on EE drop from 4G to 2G so far.
Don't know about O2 but assuming the same as Voda almost all the redirects are to 3G900 as nearly all the 4G sites have 3G900 so this makes it really quick and reliable as you know there will most likely be coverage and often it's the same cab.
The only places I've seen straight redirects to 2G are on few sites in an area covering Wiltshire/Berkshire/Hampshire. You can see these on the coverage map where there is 4G but no 3G. Oddly there is often no 3G at all in these areas and in some of them O2 doesn't have 4G either. Not quite sure what this is all about. Obviously there's something peculiar about these.
Don't know about O2 but assuming the same as Voda almost all the redirects are to 3G900 as nearly all the 4G sites have 3G900 so this makes it really quick and reliable as you know there will most likely be coverage and often it's the same cab.
Of course, the 4G upgrade will have enabled 3G 900 even if its slow due to limited spectrum.
The only places I've seen straight redirects to 2G are on few sites in an area covering Wiltshire/Berkshire/Hampshire. You can see these on the coverage map where there is 4G but no 3G. Oddly there is often no 3G at all in these areas and in some of them O2 doesn't have 4G either. Not quite sure what this is all about. Obviously there's something peculiar about these.
Rural areas, I wonder if backhaul is proving hard.
Ha! I made a guess a while ago that they may be able to limit 800 to VoLTE devices only.
I got a guess right for once!
Thanks RAN Man.
Of course the other option would be to crank all the power up to full and then limit all 4G to only VoLTE devices.... Screw everyone else!!!! Hahahahaha
Comments
It's all theoretical anyway, as it hasn't been set up this way. It possibly should have been, but with VoLTE around the corner, it's just a matter of waiting now.
It's not trying to use the LTE network for a voice call, but does receive the direction from the LTE network as to where to make the call, which will direct it to 3s 3G network. Unless you press the green button for an emergency call when up it of coverage from your network, it will not look elsewhere. (It's all to do with the state machine in the standards where you can only do network selection in idle).
With CSFB on LTE, you are dual registered on the LTE a core (for data) and the 3G CS core for voice calls, so even on LTE, according to the network you are registered on a voice network.
This informative video may help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkaeU-8b2jE
Oh My F....... Flippin God!!!!!
Where have you been this last 2 years.............???
Now it all makes sense.
You Sir, are a genius.
Now I can see why LTE is on low power.. It all falls into place.
I bloody knew it was on low power.
No it isn't some said, it's all to do with the way LTE calculates dBM.. etc etc.... bollocks bollocks....
Around here, where there is a lone 4G mast with no other one in close proximity it is totally obvious.
I am estimating 30-40% power for LTE.
In line of sight it can go 8Km easily but go just around a corner, in a car or slightly down a hill out of sight and nothing.. back to 3-4 bars 3G (from the same mast I hasten to add. I Know, I've worn the anorak and used the rather excellent field test on my iPhone).
You have also just explained why it's lower than 3G, not 2G.
3G can of course reign it's coverage in under load so LTE has to be set low enough to be within 3Gs smallest coverage footprint?
Am I right?
So are we doomed to have this low power until everyone has VoLTE enabled handsets?
Oh dear. What a balls up!
Totally excellent video by the way. told me more in 3 and a half minutes than I have learnt in 3 years!!!
We were talking about 3 (who don't have 2G) hence why the LTE power is so low.
But why is it just as low on EE. They have a much stronger 2G network yet the LTE power still seems set lower than 3G??
Don't get it.
Also just realised I must have been tired last night since the video taught me nothing.
It was pre release 10 and they were talking about a lack of CS fallback, not power levels.
It was RAN Man's 2 posts that had the killer info!
Video was funny though
LTE to 2G falback probably unreliable and in the case of what RAN Man was saying it may well be that it doesn't hunt for 2G at all and comes back to LTE with no voice.
Or something...
Under the current situation then I see no time in the near future where they will be able to turn the power up.
Seems a bit bonkers to me to spend all that money and then go and nobble the whole thing.
I have noticed doing some testing around here that I often don't have 4G in the car.
If I pull up and get out though....4G! Get back in, ...3G!
There are many places where the low signal won;t even penetrate a car. Brilliant!
At the moment it's very much outdoor, line of sight.
So much for using it to get superfast to rural areas then.
Don't worry O2 are already doing that for them
I don't know.
I was hoping RAN Man could shed some light on it.
How can anyone launch 800 is what I'm thinking.
If the requirement is that there must be CS voice available at all times (when a 4G signal is being picked up), then currently that's fine.
Well it's not fine, it's low power which is not fine but anyway, we know how that works.
If however they launch 800 soon, unless they run that at such a low level that the whole point of having it is negated, why would they even bother in the first place.
Someone somewhere at some point (with a handset that does 800 but not voice) is going to have a usable 800 data signal but absolutely no access to a switched voice circuit.
Don't get it.
My iPhone 6 on Vodafone picks up 800mhz 4G in an old peoples home where EE has no service (or GPRS if you're by a window). EE has full service 2G,3G,4G right outside. Vodafone has for years had no 3G and 900mhz 2G here outdoors, and poor signal indoors, often "no service".
I forgot to try to make a call - if I ever go back I will try. I managed 55mbps download on a speedtest where EE had no signal in an area where EE is generally considered better. I assume its coincidence and there is a Voda 4G transmitter in line with the window or something!
In other locations I have also seen my iPhone 6 on Voda go direct from 4G to 2G, so I assume Voda and O2 will have set things up to do this with CSFB given their 900mhz 2G coverage.
Could be down to the material the old people's home is made out of quite a few of them are old buildings so 800MHz would be better than 1800MHz getting through. Though obviously it could also be down to fact that EE mast is further away. There will always be places where one network is better than another reason I've always said people need test where they go before they change networks.
1. Limit it to VoLTE devices only.
2. Limit non VoLTE devices to the footprint within the equivalent voice footprint
If you're adding it for capacity 2. is an option but adds no improvement to coverage.
If you're adding it for coverage, 1. is the only option
Well for EE it would obviously be first but Three would have to be the second as it won't be for capacity in a lot of areas but the primary spectrum they use.
Assume though that all mobile data sims would be exempt from these rules as they only need the data nothing else.
We're pretty sure all the networks cell sites are on the water tower which is up the hill. There is a bit of a geographical oddity. The building itself is a 1998 build modern style with an extension built 2010. The village this place is in quite small, and I've not noticed any other masts apart from on the (very high) water tower.
The O2 website (shows masts) shows their mast (2G, 3G, 4G) in the water tower location and nothing anywhere near. So it could be some RF oddity that makes it work in this flat in the old peoples home, maybe not in any other !!
Is this done at the network level or at the device software level?
Given EE has 2G and 4G at the same 1800 frequency, there should be no issue with CSFB yet even EE hasn't set 4G power the same as 2G. That surprised me.
That would be logical.
I think it's down to fact CSFB prefers going to 3G not 2G so it needs be set at 3G level not 2G level. I've never seen my phone on EE drop from 4G to 2G so far.
EE wouldn't need to, but V/O2 might?
Don't know about O2 but assuming the same as Voda almost all the redirects are to 3G900 as nearly all the 4G sites have 3G900 so this makes it really quick and reliable as you know there will most likely be coverage and often it's the same cab.
The only places I've seen straight redirects to 2G are on few sites in an area covering Wiltshire/Berkshire/Hampshire. You can see these on the coverage map where there is 4G but no 3G. Oddly there is often no 3G at all in these areas and in some of them O2 doesn't have 4G either. Not quite sure what this is all about. Obviously there's something peculiar about these.
Rural areas, I wonder if backhaul is proving hard.
???
Don't follow. 4G works fine (in fact very fast) so why would backhaul mean no 3G?
I got a guess right for once!
Thanks RAN Man.
Of course the other option would be to crank all the power up to full and then limit all 4G to only VoLTE devices.... Screw everyone else!!!! Hahahahaha
Joking!!!!!
Doh! Re-read your post - yeah, that makes no sense. Maybe a shortage of equipment or something odd in frequency planning.