They have updated the site today, now says this. The service is expected to be off-air continuously until the evening of Tuesday 3 April, then to be off-air during the daytime only on Wednesday 4 April to Friday 6 April, and normal operation restored from the Friday evening.
All 4 of my MSF clocks have failed :-( They are two different models , one analog and three alarm clocks.
I dont know why they haven't run on the internal quartz backup, they all changed time last Sunday but now have been reset to their default time 00:00 or similar on analogue. Stupidly they are not manually settable.
I don't know if something strange was sent by MSF (usually the outage goes unnoticed) but now until 6th April I can't use these clocks.
How very stupid, indeed irresponsible for service like this to have such a long period of outage. Next time it will be a clock using the DSF system I choose ...
I was just about to buy a replacement for the wall clock that failed first when the alarms all failed and it tipped me off...but we have now to find/buy replacements as we need them
All 4 of my MSF clocks have failed :-( They are two different models , one analog and three alarm clocks.
One of my clocks is definitely MSF, it changed OK Saturday night and still running OK. Not sure of my others but think they are mostly DCF77, all changed over OK and all still showing correct time.
Rugby used to shut down during the day on the first Tuesday of every month.
It also used to have a full 2 week partial shutdown every July/August where it was typically only on at night, but officially they could shut it down completely if needed, even if in practice it never happened).
The new transmitter has a daytime shutdown every 3 months, it also has a similar annual 2 week partial shutdown. It is fairly unusual for it to not be restored overnight - the longest I have seen in the past was 48hours. So I can only assume that an issue has been identified that requires major work and has forced a full shutdown.
The DfT reviewed the MSF transmission a couple of years ago as it is increasingly less important to science and industry, however they recognised that there is a very large user base of consumer devices using the signal now, and as a result it was decided to maintain the signal indefinitely on public interest grounds.
As it is more aimed at consumers these days short full time shutdowns will become more commonplace as most consumer devices can run fine for a week or two, and so the loss is less of an issue for the scientific and industrial users (indeed the Rugby shutdown used to be in July/Aug to coincide with the academic holiday)
The shutdown of the Swiss signal is no surprise it heavily overlaps with the footprint of the DCF signal which is used by consumer devices in most of southern, central and eastern European.
In the long term it is likely that DCF (for central southern and easter Europe) and MSF (for north and wester europe) will be the only transmitters to survive, and I suspect may be ultimately be funded at an EU level.
Just checked my wall clock against the pips and it has lost one second in just over three days - obviously no problem at all, but the major issue as I see it is the confusion there must be where people have bought new clocks or replaced a battery, as I related in my opening post.
The fact that they took the bizarre decision to take it off air just as people were going back to their work places for the first time after the clocks changed just makes it worse, as I'll bet that the majority of clocks that didn't pick up the signal on Sunday would be deep inside large buildings where the signal would be weaker, quite possibly with the added problem of electrical interference.
Oh well, only another five and a bit days to go (hopefully) till they switch it back on!
I doubt there are many clocks that missed the signal it is pretty strong in the UK. Most clocks check hourly, CASIO watches try up to 5 times a night so plenty of chances to get the signal before it went off over 24hours later.
I have three Casio watches that can use both MSF and DCF, of the 3 ,2 have not synced since the 26th but 1 has, presumably the latter has a better antenna which can pick DCF up.
The unsynced ones are now 1 sec fast - which is not bad as Casio rate these watches at an accuracy of 15secs/month. My wall clock and bedside clock are about the same.
If any clocks have failed that it more the fault of the manufacturer - it is totally stupid to design one that resets the time when it tries to sync (which I assume is causing some to lock at 00:00) - the MSF signal is not guaranteed to run 24/7.
Just checked my wall clock against the pips and it has lost one second in just over three days - obviously no problem at all, but the major issue as I see it is the confusion there must be where people have bought new clocks or replaced a battery, as I related in my opening post.....
But people buy new clocks and replace batteries all year long so the problem arises whenever they have their maintenance period.
Costs would increase a lot if they had to have a backup site and I suspect that they would just close the service down if it was suggested.
The unknown clock (poss Lidel or Aldi?) is in Sync :eek: I took the batteries out and after a few minutes it synced perfectly. Not sure what bands it operates on
The unknown clock (poss Lidel or Aldi?) is in Sync :eek: I took the batteries out and after a few minutes it synced perfectly. Not sure what bands it operates on
Probably DCF77 from Germany, same as my ASCOT wall clock from Lidl which is working fine.
I bet the Germans wouldn't put up with such a shoddy service.
Probably DCF77 from Germany, same as my ASCOT wall clock from Lidl which is working fine.
I bet the Germans wouldn't put up with such a shoddy service.
From what I remember DCF77 has a separate backup site that can be used during maintenance. I think they also indicate the backup site is in use in the datastream so anyone needing high precision can make allowance for the different origin of the signal.
I do wonder why it needs quite so much maintenance, what the bloody hell are they doing to it!. TV and radio broadcasts aren't interrupted as much as this.
I wonder what the uptime is like for the German one, they are generally a very efficient country. I wonder how their service compares, the Japanese, now they really are efficient too.
I do wonder why it needs quite so much maintenance, what the bloody hell are they doing to it!. TV and radio broadcasts aren't interrupted as much as this.
I wonder what the uptime is like for the German one, they are generally a very efficient country. I wonder how their service compares, the Japanese, now they really are efficient too.
Masts need painting regularly and the guys greasing, you can't do it with the antenna live or at night. Broadcast stations are normally in a group so service will continue from other transmitters or there will be a reserve antenna they can use.
They might also be using the scheduled break to change the mast lighting.
They could get a reserve antenna but it would cost more and unlike broadcast services it does not need to be a continuous service as most users only use for a couple of minutes a day. They could charge more but, oooops, it is a FREE service.
Masts need painting regularly and the guys greasing, you can't do it with the antenna live or at night. Broadcast stations are normally in a group so service will continue from other transmitters or there will be a reserve antenna they can use.
They might also be using the scheduled break to change the mast lighting.
They could get a reserve antenna but it would cost more and unlike broadcast services it does not need to be a continuous service as most users only use for a couple of minutes a day. They could charge more but, oooops, it is a FREE service.
I doubt they need painting that often, there are radio stations and tv masts up and down the land that get by with a very limited amount of maintenance and they don't all have other spares kicking around you know!
Many years go by with no need to do anything, as for funding I'm sure somebody is paying for NPL whether it be tax payers etc..
I'm curious about how often the German and Japanese time signal transmissions are down for in comparison.
I doubt they need painting that often, there are radio stations and tv masts up and down the land that get by with a very limited amount of maintenance and they don't all have other spares kicking around you know!
Many years go by with no need to do anything, as for funding I'm sure somebody is paying for NPL whether it be tax payers etc..
I'm curious about how often the German and Japanese time signal transmissions are down for in comparison.
It is usually every few years. TV masts are different because they have two sets of antenna so you can normally switch to half antenna working, you can't do that with mast radiators or wire antenna between masts or supported by a mast.
I suspect that NPL is running on a shoestring and particularly their contract for MSF, it is probably just a PITA for them as most serious users tend to be using GPS nowadays but they have to keep the service going for mainly cheap alarm clocks which they don't get any income from.
WWVB has a dual antenna so might be able to run on one half but they quite likely have a bigger budget.
JJY has two frequencies from two different sites but one was off for a time after Fukushima then again some weeks after it came back on.
I was wondering what was going on with the clocks. I noticed at 1am this morning that my wall clock was having a bad turn.:D I also noticed that my Oregon Scientific alarm had no signal displaying on the little antenna.
I've just done a check with the time signal station CHU in Canada on 14.670 MHz Shortwave. It appears that my wall clock has lost 4sec and the Oregon has lost 2sec, so I guess I can't complain too much.
Do radio stations have some kind of backup system when situations like this arise. I'm just waiting for 1am Monday morning to see if Keith Skues gets his timing right at the end of his programme - I can see a clash with Five Live on the horizon.:D
I was wondering what was going on with the clocks. I noticed at 1am this morning that my wall clock was having a bad turn.:D I also noticed that my Oregon Scientific alarm had no signal displaying on the little antenna.
I've just done a check with the time signal station CHU in Canada on 14.670 MHz Shortwave. It appears that my wall clock has lost 4sec and the Oregon has lost 2sec, so I guess I can't complain too much.
Do radio stations have some kind of backup system when situations like this arise. I'm just waiting for 1am Monday morning to see if Keith Skues gets his timing right at the end of his programme - I can see a clash with Five Live on the horizon.:D
I thought the time signals were on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 MHz?
Do radio stations have some kind of backup system when situations like this arise. I'm just waiting for 1am Monday morning to see if Keith Skues gets his timing right at the end of his programme - I can see a clash with Five Live on the horizon.:D
I can't speak for other radio companies, but Global Radio has moved away from reliance on MSF, not only because of reliability problems like these, but also poor reception since the transmitter moved from Rugby.
These days, studio clocks are PC-based, and all computers in the domain are synched to the master domain clock, which is itself checked against multiple time sources, only one of which is MSF.
I only noticed this yesterday when I realised that my clock-radio alarm (which uses the MSF signal) was about 10s fast (I saw it change to 7:00 am just before the BBC pips). Amazed to see that MSF is off-air for almost 2 weeks. Have seen nothing about it in the media; surely NPL would have issued a press release? Had to Google fairly determinedly to find the NPL webpage which confirmed the details.
I only noticed this yesterday when I realised that my clock-radio alarm (which uses the MSF signal) was about 10s fast (I saw it change to 7:00 am just before the BBC pips). Amazed to see that MSF is off-air for almost 2 weeks. Have seen nothing about it in the media; surely NPL would have issued a press release? Had to Google fairly determinedly to find the NPL webpage which confirmed the details.
I checked my MSF alarm clock this morning. It showed no update for 95 hours and was one second different from my DCF77 clock.
Comments
The service is expected to be off-air continuously until the evening of Tuesday 3 April, then to be off-air during the daytime only on Wednesday 4 April to Friday 6 April, and normal operation restored from the Friday evening.
Link,
http://www.npl.co.uk/science-technology/time-frequency/time/products-and-services/msf-outages
I dont know why they haven't run on the internal quartz backup, they all changed time last Sunday but now have been reset to their default time 00:00 or similar on analogue. Stupidly they are not manually settable.
I don't know if something strange was sent by MSF (usually the outage goes unnoticed) but now until 6th April I can't use these clocks.
How very stupid, indeed irresponsible for service like this to have such a long period of outage. Next time it will be a clock using the DSF system I choose ...
I was just about to buy a replacement for the wall clock that failed first when the alarms all failed and it tipped me off...but we have now to find/buy replacements as we need them
K
One of my clocks is definitely MSF, it changed OK Saturday night and still running OK. Not sure of my others but think they are mostly DCF77, all changed over OK and all still showing correct time.
It also used to have a full 2 week partial shutdown every July/August where it was typically only on at night, but officially they could shut it down completely if needed, even if in practice it never happened).
The new transmitter has a daytime shutdown every 3 months, it also has a similar annual 2 week partial shutdown. It is fairly unusual for it to not be restored overnight - the longest I have seen in the past was 48hours. So I can only assume that an issue has been identified that requires major work and has forced a full shutdown.
The DfT reviewed the MSF transmission a couple of years ago as it is increasingly less important to science and industry, however they recognised that there is a very large user base of consumer devices using the signal now, and as a result it was decided to maintain the signal indefinitely on public interest grounds.
As it is more aimed at consumers these days short full time shutdowns will become more commonplace as most consumer devices can run fine for a week or two, and so the loss is less of an issue for the scientific and industrial users (indeed the Rugby shutdown used to be in July/Aug to coincide with the academic holiday)
The shutdown of the Swiss signal is no surprise it heavily overlaps with the footprint of the DCF signal which is used by consumer devices in most of southern, central and eastern European.
In the long term it is likely that DCF (for central southern and easter Europe) and MSF (for north and wester europe) will be the only transmitters to survive, and I suspect may be ultimately be funded at an EU level.
The fact that they took the bizarre decision to take it off air just as people were going back to their work places for the first time after the clocks changed just makes it worse, as I'll bet that the majority of clocks that didn't pick up the signal on Sunday would be deep inside large buildings where the signal would be weaker, quite possibly with the added problem of electrical interference.
Oh well, only another five and a bit days to go (hopefully) till they switch it back on!
I have three Casio watches that can use both MSF and DCF, of the 3 ,2 have not synced since the 26th but 1 has, presumably the latter has a better antenna which can pick DCF up.
The unsynced ones are now 1 sec fast - which is not bad as Casio rate these watches at an accuracy of 15secs/month. My wall clock and bedside clock are about the same.
If any clocks have failed that it more the fault of the manufacturer - it is totally stupid to design one that resets the time when it tries to sync (which I assume is causing some to lock at 00:00) - the MSF signal is not guaranteed to run 24/7.
But people buy new clocks and replace batteries all year long so the problem arises whenever they have their maintenance period.
Costs would increase a lot if they had to have a backup site and I suspect that they would just close the service down if it was suggested.
My Casio Wave Ceptor Last Sync 26th March at 2.03
The unknown clock (poss Lidel or Aldi?) is in Sync :eek:
I bet the Germans wouldn't put up with such a shoddy service.
Wrong type of MSF....
From what I remember DCF77 has a separate backup site that can be used during maintenance. I think they also indicate the backup site is in use in the datastream so anyone needing high precision can make allowance for the different origin of the signal.
But it will increase costs significantly.
I wonder what the uptime is like for the German one, they are generally a very efficient country. I wonder how their service compares, the Japanese, now they really are efficient too.
Masts need painting regularly and the guys greasing, you can't do it with the antenna live or at night. Broadcast stations are normally in a group so service will continue from other transmitters or there will be a reserve antenna they can use.
They might also be using the scheduled break to change the mast lighting.
They could get a reserve antenna but it would cost more and unlike broadcast services it does not need to be a continuous service as most users only use for a couple of minutes a day. They could charge more but, oooops, it is a FREE service.
I doubt they need painting that often, there are radio stations and tv masts up and down the land that get by with a very limited amount of maintenance and they don't all have other spares kicking around you know!
Many years go by with no need to do anything, as for funding I'm sure somebody is paying for NPL whether it be tax payers etc..
I'm curious about how often the German and Japanese time signal transmissions are down for in comparison.
It is usually every few years. TV masts are different because they have two sets of antenna so you can normally switch to half antenna working, you can't do that with mast radiators or wire antenna between masts or supported by a mast.
I suspect that NPL is running on a shoestring and particularly their contract for MSF, it is probably just a PITA for them as most serious users tend to be using GPS nowadays but they have to keep the service going for mainly cheap alarm clocks which they don't get any income from.
WWVB has a dual antenna so might be able to run on one half but they quite likely have a bigger budget.
JJY has two frequencies from two different sites but one was off for a time after Fukushima then again some weeks after it came back on.
I've just done a check with the time signal station CHU in Canada on 14.670 MHz Shortwave. It appears that my wall clock has lost 4sec and the Oregon has lost 2sec, so I guess I can't complain too much.
Do radio stations have some kind of backup system when situations like this arise. I'm just waiting for 1am Monday morning to see if Keith Skues gets his timing right at the end of his programme - I can see a clash with Five Live on the horizon.:D
I thought the time signals were on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 MHz?
That makes sense.
I forced a manual search on my Casio Wave Ceptor WV200U watch and it synced with something I expect DFC77 in Germany since its a 5 band.
http://ac6v.com/standard.htm
As I type this my wall clock is having another bad turn.
I can't speak for other radio companies, but Global Radio has moved away from reliance on MSF, not only because of reliability problems like these, but also poor reception since the transmitter moved from Rugby.
These days, studio clocks are PC-based, and all computers in the domain are synched to the master domain clock, which is itself checked against multiple time sources, only one of which is MSF.
Simon
CASIO Waveceptors set to London time try MSF first then use DCF as a backup.
I checked my MSF alarm clock this morning. It showed no update for 95 hours and was one second different from my DCF77 clock.
Looks like I managed to get it syncing with DCF as it automatically synced at 2.02am. Think I might leave it on that frequency
My MSF Oregon Scientific is actually fine to the very second even though its been out of sync for almost a week!
So I took the batteries out,only to find that it is,as I thought,using MSF,well it's a good,stand alone,clock as well then
My cheaper,and more recent digital clocks are two or three seconds slow now