Some people find it impossible to stick to the theme of the thread.
It's about Gay Muslims :rolleyes:
No! The thread was discussing a programme of that title - but relevant discussion is welcomed. The post you referred to was highly relevant to the topic - in fact it added much more to the debate than you seem to have done.
The Muslim Association of Great Britian keeps bleating on what a tolerant religion Islam is! :eek:
Like Christianity, Islam is only tolerant of people who accept without question the small minded opinions and values of its moralistic, dimwitted leaders.
Like Christianity, Islam is only tolerant of people who accept without question the small minded opinions and values of its moralistic, dimwitted leaders.
Please don't generalise about faiths, and what they will and will not accept. You will find many Christians who accept homosexuality as part of life, and would openly welcome homosexuals into their congregation. I didn't see the programme, so I am wondering if any liberal muslims were invited to give their opinion; or was it the usual fundamentalist claptrap we should be used to, but which still irritates me considerably.
Please don't generalise about faiths, and what they will and will not accept. You will find many Christians who accept homosexuality as part of life, and would openly welcome homosexuals into their congregation. I didn't see the programme, so I am wondering if any liberal muslims were invited to give their opinion; or was it the usual fundamentalist claptrap we should be used to, but which still irritates me considerably.
Well said Caramel.
To answer your question there was a section of the programme where a liberal (convert) muslim scholar was explaining how the Qu'ran can be interpreted to mean it was homosexual rape that was condemned, not homosexual love. I thought it was quite a well balanced and thoughtful programme.
Please don't generalise about faiths, and what they will and will not accept. You will find many Christians who accept homosexuality as part of life, and would openly welcome homosexuals into their congregation. I didn't see the programme, so I am wondering if any liberal muslims were invited to give their opinion; or was it the usual fundamentalist claptrap we should be used to, but which still irritates me considerably.
Fair comment, but why is it we never hear these accepting, tolerant Christians and Moslems? Are they being silenced by their religious leaders? Or are their voices being drowned out by extremist nutcases? If it's the later then I assume the extremists are in the majority else it wouldn't happen.
Fair comment, but why is it we never hear these accepting, tolerant Christians and Moslems? Are they being silenced by their religious leaders? Or are their voices being drowned out by extremist nutcases? If it's the later then I assume the extremists are in the majority else it wouldn't happen.
It's probably because many Christians go quietly about their faith, demonstrating it to others by their manner, instead of bible bashing and judgement. I guess those who shout the loudest get the most coverage, and as knocking religion is rather fashionable at the moment, it's the aspect presenters and journalists prefer to cover. To my mind, this sensational coverage, is as damaging to society as fundamentalism itself.
If your lookign at it from a religious perspective then homosexuality is a sin - if you are a muslim and gay the your a muslim who is commiting a sin !!! thats it...so dont say that dimwitted leaders of islam today arent tolerant how can they be tolerant of gays when islam preaches that homosexualty is a sin it always has it always will be its law thats concrete and set in stone its not open to discussion its a clear as murder is a sin to any religion!!! so why should leaders disobey god !! who are you to judge the leaders there free to follow there religion you follow your religion what ever it may be..
if your looking at it from a secular point of view then fine be as gay as you want!!
i found the program absurd as you find muslims unqualifed justifying there actions through self interpretaion with no understanding of language law and history of islam..
muslim and gay is the same as saying
alcholic and muslim
fornicator and muslim
adulterer and muslim
theif and muslim
their all sins - now i can go and justify each of these sins if i want to and say that society isnt tolerant of me -
If your lookign at it from a religious perspective then homosexuality is a sin - if you are a muslim and gay the your a muslim who is commiting a sin !!! thats it...so dont say that dimwitted leaders of islam today arent tolerant how can they be tolerant of gays when islam preaches that homosexualty is a sin it always has it always will be its law thats concrete and set in stone its not open to discussion its a clear as murder is a sin to any religion!!! so why should leaders disobey god !! who are you to judge the leaders there free to follow there religion you follow your religion what ever it may be..
It's as much my right to refer to them as dimwitted morons as it is their right to state their beliefs.
One thing that caught my attention was this belief that being gay was a *choice* (a sentiment not limited to muslims by any means) - this annoys me so much. Do straight people believe they have a choice? And why would anyone choose to be something that caries such a stigma (and danger) in their religion and cultures.
So sad
I think you would have to be very, very stupid to think being gay was a choice. So I’m guessing that they use it in the context of; you can only be “gay” if you were to engage in same sex activities. So in that respect you have a choice, the same as if you were a priest (They have to be celibate (sp?) don’t they? ) it doesn’t matter who you are attracted to as long as you don’t act upon it.
I suppose in a way that’s the nature of personal faith. Which I have no problem with, it’s the people who display their views in organised way, such as condemning other people who don’t share there values or beliefs. It never makes sense to me why anti gay activists with things like “god kills gays with HIV” etc would go around saying stuff like that because wtf has non Christians(etc) lives got to do with them?
Perhaps, like me, you could take the view that very few people in this world are “free” and merely live in a world that’s been actively constructed for them. Is that true living?
I think, Peapod, the attached message, proves the point of my messages, numbers 30 and 33 rather well. Tapmadi seems to have riled a few other posters, whereas my postings have slipped by the wayside.
If your lookign at it from a religious perspective then homosexuality is a sin - if you are a muslim and gay the your a muslim who is commiting a sin !!! thats it...so dont say that dimwitted leaders of islam today arent tolerant how can they be tolerant of gays when islam preaches that homosexualty is a sin it always has it always will be its law thats concrete and set in stone its not open to discussion its a clear as murder is a sin to any religion!!! so why should leaders disobey god !! who are you to judge the leaders there free to follow there religion you follow your religion what ever it may be..
if your looking at it from a secular point of view then fine be as gay as you want!!
i found the program absurd as you find muslims unqualifed justifying there actions through self interpretaion with no understanding of language law and history of islam..
muslim and gay is the same as saying
alcholic and muslim
fornicator and muslim
adulterer and muslim
theif and muslim
their all sins - now i can go and justify each of these sins if i want to and say that society isnt tolerant of me -
I think, Peapod, the attached message, proves the point of my messages, numbers 30 and 33 rather well. Tapmadi seems to have riled a few other posters, whereas my postings have slipped by the wayside.
Yes indeed, I think Tapmadi has proven your point Caramel
i was surprised to learn about racism within the gay community who you would have thought would have been more understanding
Racism exists on the gay 'scene', rather than being prevalent in the gay community. There's a distinction.
The gay scene is sex orientated, so people's ethnic origin becomes an issue of preference. You only have to date ONE black person, and suddenly you're a 'dinge queen' (ie someone who favours black men; a dreadfull and disgusting slur) Similar 'nicknames' exist and are applied to anyone who appears to date outside their race.
Its very sad how bigoted Islam is towards gay people. And to think prats liek the head of The Muslim Association of Great Britian keeps bleating on what a tolerant religion Islam is! :eek:
there are only following what the Qu'ran and muhammed has said.
there are only following what the Qu'ran and muhammed has said.
Following the Qu'ran (or the bible, or any other religious book) does not make it right. Also, there are liberal muslim scholars who believe that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in a different way that does not mean homosexual relationships are sinful (rather promiscuity, adultery and rape are).
There is no excuse for shunning, imprisoning, flogging or killing people becuase of their sexuality. It is not a choice and thankfully the world is finally starting to wake up to the fact that being gay is part of the normal spectrum of sexuality. There is a long way to go, attested by the fact that so many lesbians and gay men are still punished for being who they are.
It is a real shame that so many people still expend so much time and effort hating a group who harm no-one... they should divert their attention to the *real* evils in this world, and for some a good look in the mirror will give them a clue where they should start.
Following the Qu'ran (or the bible, or any other religious book) does not make it right. Also, there are liberal muslim scholars who believe that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in a different way that does not mean homosexual relationships are sinful (rather promiscuity, adultery and rape are).
I agree with you. And interpretation is the name of the game , in any religion.
So many things can be interpeted in more than one way. A prime example of interpretation is Pork and Islam. Now Muslims ( and Jews ) cannot eat Pork , but this is really for health reasons , but no where does it say in the Quran that you cannot look at a pig.
But there are instances where some Muslims have complained about images of pigs as they have said are insulting to Islam , for example someone complained that their colleague had a picture of Winnie the Pooh and Piglet in an office and they said that Piglet being a pig was unacceptable to have near a Muslim. Which as you can see is obviously the way that individual interprated the rule about not eating Pork , they have taken it to a further extreme.
So yes interpretation is what its all about , and its something that will always be questioned and I am afraid no one will ever really be able to answer. Which is bloody frustrating . As at the end of the day , I am sure any God would not want to see persecution of their people just because they were different from others.
Thought was interesting in light of Eastenders Syed/Christian storyline and threads started here recently arguing the pros and cons of being a "gay muslim".
Homeless charity warns of increase in gay Muslims fleeing family violence
By Staff Writer, PinkNews.co.uk • January 11, 2010 - 14:12
Young gay Muslims sometimes face family anger (Photo: B Hernandez)
The Albert Kennedy Trust, a charity which helps homeless LGBT young people, has said it is seeing an increase in the numbers of gay Muslims fleeing from forced marriages and family violence.
The charity told the BBC it had seen an increase in the numbers of gay Muslims contacting it for help in the last six months.
Trust worker Annie Southerst said: "They face threats of physical violence, actual violence and restriction of liberties.
"We've had people chased out of the house with knives and we have had issues around young people who had exorcisms planned to get rid of the gay demons, I suppose.
"They come to us because they're homeless, or in danger of being homeless imminently. We sort out emergency accommodation for them."
One visitor to the charity's weekly drop-in session in London, 20-year-old student Suni, told the BBC he had been imprisoned in Pakistan for three months after his parents suspected he was gay.
Suni said he had been beaten by his family, who thought making him marry a woman would cure him of homosexuality.
Fazal Mahmood, who runs a support group for South Asian and Middle Eastern gay men called Himat, said that after young men and women in Muslim families reveal their sexual orientation, they are often asked to leave.
He said: "I'm proud to be a Muslim, I'm proud to be South Asian, Pakistani and I'm proud to be gay as well.
"Unfortunately a lot of parents don't see that. All they see is 'what is my community going to feel like when they find out my son or daughter is gay?'."
The government dropped plans to make forcing someone into a marriage a crime, instead introducing Forced Marriage Protection orders in November 2008.
The Albert Kennedy Trust has used four in the last few months. They are court orders which, if breached, can result in a two-year prison sentence.
The head of the government department which deals with forced marriages said that gay and lesbian young people were particularly vulnerable to forced marriages.
Olaf Henricson-Bell said: "Forced marriage by its nature is an underground practice and the cases often go unreported.
"The individuals involved may be reluctant to mention sexuality when they ring us or when they bring their case to the attention of the authorities."
The Forced Marriage Unit is to work with the Albert Kennedy Trust to produce guidance for gay charities when dealing with young people at risk of being forced into marriages.
If your lookign at it from a religious perspective then homosexuality is a sin - if you are a muslim and gay the your a muslim who is commiting a sin !!!
Not according to one muslim scholar:
Muslim academic claims homosexuality can be compatible with Islam
By Jessica Geen • July 13, 2009 - 10:54
Dr Amanullah De Sondy claimed most Muslims are "deeply homophobic" A leading Muslim academic has said there is evidence in the Koran that homosexuality can be compatible with Islam.
In an interview with the Times, Dr Amanullah De Sondy, 29, said that despite the evidence, conservative Muslims will not accept homosexuality as they are "deeply homophobic".
De Sondy, who holds a teaching position at the School of Divinity in Glasgow University, said: “Homosexuality is not incompatible with Islam. The two can and have coexisted. The important thing is to link it with living a good life and creating a good society.
“If you ask them privately, the vast majority of my generation of Muslims are deeply homophobic. I think it is particularly entrenched because so many Muslim societies are rooted in traditional ideas of the family and patriarchy.”
On the story of the destruction of Sodom, which appears in both the Koran and the Bible, he said: “It is often said to illustrate God’s disapproval of homosexuality. But on closer inspection it is about his disapproval of the rape of young boys. There is a big difference."
De Sondy claims that one Muslim saint was said to have had a gay relationship: "In the 16th-century Punjab, there lived a Sufi [Muslim mystic] saint and poet called Shah Hussain. He fell in love with a Hindu boy. They lived together and are buried in the same tomb. But some people want to rewrite history, saying the boy was in fact a girl.”
In May, a survey suggested that UK Muslims have significantly less tolerance for homosexuality than their French and German counterparts.
The poll, part of the the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, found that not one of the 1,001 British Muslims interviewed believed homosexual acts were morally acceptable.
Fifty-eight per cent of the general British public said they thought homosexuality was not morally wrong, compared with 68 per cent of Germans.
French respondents were the most liberal, with 78 per cent of the general public saying it was not morally wrong. According to the survey, the opinions of Christians differed little from the views of the general public.
In comparison to British Muslims, 35 per cent of French Muslims and 19 per cent of German Muslims did not have moral objections to homosexual acts.
The survey also showed that British Muslims hold more conservative opinions towards abortion, viewing pornography, suicide and sex outside marriage than European Muslims, with markedly lower rates of thinking such issues are morally acceptable.
i was surprised to learn about racism within the gay community who you would have thought would have been more understanding
Why? Gay people are just like anyone else apart from their sexuality - There are therefore as many racists as in normal society as gay people are normal society.
Besides, have you seen the homophobia among the black community? Wouldn't or shouldn't they know what it's like having bigoted views against a minority?
Comments
No! The thread was discussing a programme of that title - but relevant discussion is welcomed. The post you referred to was highly relevant to the topic - in fact it added much more to the debate than you seem to have done.
Please don't generalise about faiths, and what they will and will not accept. You will find many Christians who accept homosexuality as part of life, and would openly welcome homosexuals into their congregation. I didn't see the programme, so I am wondering if any liberal muslims were invited to give their opinion; or was it the usual fundamentalist claptrap we should be used to, but which still irritates me considerably.
Well said Caramel.
To answer your question there was a section of the programme where a liberal (convert) muslim scholar was explaining how the Qu'ran can be interpreted to mean it was homosexual rape that was condemned, not homosexual love. I thought it was quite a well balanced and thoughtful programme.
It's probably because many Christians go quietly about their faith, demonstrating it to others by their manner, instead of bible bashing and judgement. I guess those who shout the loudest get the most coverage, and as knocking religion is rather fashionable at the moment, it's the aspect presenters and journalists prefer to cover. To my mind, this sensational coverage, is as damaging to society as fundamentalism itself.
if your looking at it from a secular point of view then fine be as gay as you want!!
i found the program absurd as you find muslims unqualifed justifying there actions through self interpretaion with no understanding of language law and history of islam..
muslim and gay is the same as saying
alcholic and muslim
fornicator and muslim
adulterer and muslim
theif and muslim
their all sins - now i can go and justify each of these sins if i want to and say that society isnt tolerant of me -
I think you would have to be very, very stupid to think being gay was a choice. So I’m guessing that they use it in the context of; you can only be “gay” if you were to engage in same sex activities. So in that respect you have a choice, the same as if you were a priest (They have to be celibate (sp?) don’t they?
I suppose in a way that’s the nature of personal faith. Which I have no problem with, it’s the people who display their views in organised way, such as condemning other people who don’t share there values or beliefs. It never makes sense to me why anti gay activists with things like “god kills gays with HIV” etc would go around saying stuff like that because wtf has non Christians(etc) lives got to do with them?
Perhaps, like me, you could take the view that very few people in this world are “free” and merely live in a world that’s been actively constructed for them. Is that true living?
Caramel
Racism exists on the gay 'scene', rather than being prevalent in the gay community. There's a distinction.
The gay scene is sex orientated, so people's ethnic origin becomes an issue of preference. You only have to date ONE black person, and suddenly you're a 'dinge queen' (ie someone who favours black men; a dreadfull and disgusting slur) Similar 'nicknames' exist and are applied to anyone who appears to date outside their race.
The gay community is exactly that: a community.
there are only following what the Qu'ran and muhammed has said.
Following the Qu'ran (or the bible, or any other religious book) does not make it right. Also, there are liberal muslim scholars who believe that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in a different way that does not mean homosexual relationships are sinful (rather promiscuity, adultery and rape are).
There is no excuse for shunning, imprisoning, flogging or killing people becuase of their sexuality. It is not a choice and thankfully the world is finally starting to wake up to the fact that being gay is part of the normal spectrum of sexuality. There is a long way to go, attested by the fact that so many lesbians and gay men are still punished for being who they are.
It is a real shame that so many people still expend so much time and effort hating a group who harm no-one... they should divert their attention to the *real* evils in this world, and for some a good look in the mirror will give them a clue where they should start.
I agree with you. And interpretation is the name of the game , in any religion.
So many things can be interpeted in more than one way. A prime example of interpretation is Pork and Islam. Now Muslims ( and Jews ) cannot eat Pork , but this is really for health reasons , but no where does it say in the Quran that you cannot look at a pig.
But there are instances where some Muslims have complained about images of pigs as they have said are insulting to Islam , for example someone complained that their colleague had a picture of Winnie the Pooh and Piglet in an office and they said that Piglet being a pig was unacceptable to have near a Muslim. Which as you can see is obviously the way that individual interprated the rule about not eating Pork , they have taken it to a further extreme.
So yes interpretation is what its all about , and its something that will always be questioned and I am afraid no one will ever really be able to answer. Which is bloody frustrating . As at the end of the day , I am sure any God would not want to see persecution of their people just because they were different from others.
Not according to one muslim scholar:
Why? Gay people are just like anyone else apart from their sexuality - There are therefore as many racists as in normal society as gay people are normal society.
Besides, have you seen the homophobia among the black community? Wouldn't or shouldn't they know what it's like having bigoted views against a minority?
And Hitler was only following his views as well! :rolleyes:
What was funny about it?