Yeah we saw 2010 scott after Nisha had the baby and she said they are the naming the baby Alice. I actually think that the Deaf girl (cant remember her name) is the key to all this, she was Alice's age, i bet she was involved in her death somehow
1. Alice's grandmother has a huge part to play in her death?
2. There is a reason that Ruth has been away from Marchlands for such a long time - maybe she only returned in 2010 because she was unable to do so before then?
1. Alice's grandmother has a huge part to play in her death?
2. There is a reason that Ruth has been away from Marchlands for such a long time - maybe she only returned in 2010 because she was unable to do so before then?
What I'd really like to know is what the child Olive signed to Alice's mum Ruth when they passed her in the graveyard. She turned round looked at her and signed.
Where does anyone think Ruth was when Alice died? I remember in one of the other episodes Paul asking Ruth where she was that day and she said 'you know where I was' and he replied 'not where you should have been'.
Yes, I would also like the answer to that one....we have seen a few clips of Paul yelling at her and the policeman saying if you had done your job properly to Ruth, this wouldnt have happened.
The only comment I can remember is someone - Evelyn perhaps - talking about Ruth being at night class - but surely Alice was out with Robert during the day if he was taking her for a walk with the dog.
What I'd really like to know is what the child Olive signed to Alice's mum Ruth when they passed her in the graveyard. She turned round looked at her and signed.
She signed 'sorry'.
Now whether that is "sorry that your daughter died" or "sorry for what I know about her death" we don't yet know.
3.Scott could have been Alice's brother (when Ruth was in bed with the student something could have happned!) but he was adopted. Maybe he and Alice both had epilepsy and that caused Alice to drown.The fact he was adopted may be why he is still in the village and the rest of his family aren't.
These could probably all be wrong but just a few ideas!!:)
Yes, good theory....... there have been a few ideas on here about Ruth having had another child which was adopted.....I even thought that she had another child, which was not Paul's and Paul and the grandparents were so concerned about the shame that it would bring to the family, that they told Ruth the baby had died and then had it adopted....and the child, as you say, turned out to be Scott.
Could even have been Mark.
Sadly though I think none of our good ideas are going to be in this story line
Am not going to try and re copy the earlier post, as knowing my luck I will end up taking off the spoiler tags !
But just to say I agree with both of your spoiler theories Leicester Hunk......... very believable.
And yes, am another one who agrees with what was posted earlier,,,,, where is the dog ???? very sloppy writing if we dont get the answer to that one....
I am thinking that Robert used the dog walking as an excuse to go and visit Olive's mother and that it was a regular event, but that he didn't normally have Alice with him.
Ruth was obviously not there at that moment to care for Alice on a 24/7 basis as seems to be the implication she should have done but why couldn't Paul or Evelyn looked after Alice rather than her having to go with Robert?
I have a new theory that just occurred to me as I was typing on the facebook page....
I also think Olive played a big part, ...although I'm not quite sure how - whether it was an accident and Olive didn't hear Alice's screams or Olive pushed her - but what motive?
Oh I wonder - perhaps jealousy - Olive's mum and Paul had an affair - Olive is the result making Olive and Alice half-sisters - Olive is jealous of fact that Alice has mum and dad and she only has a dad. Perhaps Olive's mum was pestering Paul and grandad was there warning her off which was why Alice was on her own, she overheard the shouting as did Olive and they ran off into the woods..........Olive chasing Alice and the rest is history.
I have a new theory that just occurred to me as I was typing on the facebook page....
I also think Olive played a big part, ...although I'm not quite sure how - whether it was an accident and Olive didn't hear Alice's screams or Olive pushed her - but what motive?
Oh I wonder - perhaps jealousy - Olive's mum and Paul had an affair - Olive is the result making Olive and Alice half-sisters - Olive is jealous of fact that Alice has mum and dad and she only has a dad. Perhaps Olive's mum was pestering Paul and grandad was there warning her off which was why Alice was on her own, she overheard the shouting as did Olive and they ran off into the woods..........Olive chasing Alice and the rest is history.
Welcome to DS!!
The thought that Paul and Liz (Olives mom) had been having an affair, (in the early days of his marriage to Ruth) and Olive was the end result, has been pestering me for days now; as a couple of my previous posts on here will disclose. I can't help but think we're 'supposed' to think it's Liz and Robert (Grandfather) due to comments made in previous episodes and in the trailer for the final episode, made by both Robert and Evelyn.
We're told by the Dr that the chances of Robert fathering more children now is remote, but that's now. and doesn't necessarily apply to previous years. In the trailer for the final episode Evelyn says something along the lines of
"Do you think I didn't know" to Robert
That could have a fair few meanings granted. As she could be refering to both her husband, and son! Only 4 more sleeps till we find out!! lol
I can't help but think we're 'supposed' to think it's Liz and Robert (Grandfather) due to comments made in previous episodes and in the trailer for the final episode, made by both Robert and Evelyn.
We're told by the Dr that the chances of Robert fathering more children now is remote, but that's now. and doesn't necessarily apply to previous years.
I think this too and just honestly can't see Robert and Liz having the affair - he just seems too straight laced - I think its just a red herring.
Also as you say the reference to remote chances of fathering more children is now and not in the past.
Going to watch the first episodes again on iPlayer with renewed eyes and see if I can figure out more. My hubby usually figures these things out and is regularly accurate but I'm pleased that he hasn't watched this (he watched the 1st and reckons Robert did it) because it just infuriates me when he's proved right:D
Doctors, presumably? I've certainly never heard of a disease which passes deafness and epilepsy onto your offspring. If there was one, and it was sexually transmitted, surely it would be well publicised, in order to encourage safer sex?
I've got to say, if that turns out to be the denouement I'll be pretty disappointed. Although I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm sure it's not
Edit: Was Alice epileptic? I must have missed that bit
Congenital sphyllis can cause deafness and/or epilepsy.
I don't think it's as complicated as some of you are thinking.
The gulf being suggested between Evelyn and Robert would suggest that an affair for Robert was entirely possible.
For some reason Ruth has been out (night classes?) and Alice has gone with Robert on his walk when she wouldn't normally. Perhaps she normally left her with Evelyn but Evelyn was out too.
Robert has gone to see Liz and an unknowing Alice has been left to play with Olive. Or maybe he hadn't intended to spend any time with Liz as he had Alice with him but she's stopped him and confronted him/argued with him as he passed the house.
Alice has seen Robert and Liz, or Olive has told her, maybe even taunted her a bit (Olive would feel guilty if it was that) and has run off upset followed by Olive (the shots of Alice running she looks like she's looking back to someone following her). She's fallen in the water and Olive hasn't heard her screams.
I think Paul might know about his dad's affair so blames Ruth for not being there and leaving Alice to have to go with her grandad. His old-fashioned streak thinking Ruth should've stayed at home if there was no other childcare available. I just get the impression everyone knows something that Ruth doesn't... and that might be why Robert's full attention wasn't on his grandchild.
I think Evelyn knows too, hence her point scoring over telling Paul about Ruth and her chat to Ruth about holding things together no matter what.
I really don't think it's any more convoluted than that.
I don't think it's as complicated as some of you are thinking.
The gulf being suggested between Evelyn and Robert would suggest that an affair for Robert was entirely possible.
For some reason Ruth has been out (night classes?) and Alice has gone with Robert on his walk when she wouldn't normally. Perhaps she normally left her with Evelyn but Evelyn was out too.
Robert has gone to see Liz and an unknowing Alice has been left to play with Olive. Or maybe he hadn't intended to spend any time with Liz as he had Alice with him but she's stopped him and confronted him/argued with him as he passed the house.
Alice has seen Robert and Liz, or Olive has told her, maybe even taunted her a bit (Olive would feel guilty if it was that) and has run off upset followed by Olive (the shots of Alice running she looks like she's looking back to someone following her). She's fallen in the water and Olive hasn't heard her screams.
I think Paul might know about his dad's affair so blames Ruth for not being there and leaving Alice to have to go with her grandad. His old-fashioned streak thinking Ruth should've stayed at home if there was no other childcare available. I just get the impression everyone knows something that Ruth doesn't... and that might be why Robert's full attention wasn't on his grandchild.
I think Evelyn knows too, hence her point scoring over telling Paul about Ruth and her chat to Ruth about holding things together no matter what.
I really don't think it's any more convoluted than that.
I think you could be onto something there, perhaps we are all trying to make things too complicated and see things that aren't there.
Did we ever find out who put the missing cross on the gravestone? I'm assuming that as we see the child olive retrieving the coat peg from the fire and it later appearing at the grave that she also placed the cross there too. But why would Alice be missing both her coat and her cross and how would Liz be in possession of the coat and (assumption) the cross too.
We know from the route that Alice took Amy on to the pool that her path would have taken her past the house in the 1960's - she could have taken off her coat if she had stopped there but why her cross? IIRC the chain was unbroken which would indicate it was carefully removed rather than torn off.
My thought - Alice fell in the pool but was rescued by Alice and/or Olive, she was taken back to the house soaking wet and put in a hot bath where she subsequently drowned, and Liz in a panic hurriedly dressed her and put her back in the pool, forgetting the cross and coat in her hurry.
Just think, there will be threads on Digital Spy 2040 with posters asking if anyone remembers that great serial from years ago about the haunted house and the drowned girl:D
I think this too and just honestly can't see Robert and Liz having the affair - he just seems too straight laced - I think its just a red herring.
Also as you say the reference to remote chances of fathering more children is now and not in the past.
Going to watch the first episodes again on iPlayer with renewed eyes and see if I can figure out more. My hubby usually figures these things out and is regularly accurate but I'm pleased that he hasn't watched this (he watched the 1st and reckons Robert did it) because it just infuriates me when he's proved right:D
The only thing is Denis Lawson is a big name. He and Anne Reid are probably the 2 best known actors and I remember thinking in part one that he seemed to have nothing much to say and that he had to be playing a bigger part than that suggested.....hmmmm
The only thing is Denis Lawson is a big name. He and Anne Reid are probably the 2 best known actors and I remember thinking in part one that he seemed to have nothing much to say and that he had to be playing a bigger part than that suggested.....hmmmm
Yeah, The First Law of TV Murder, the biggest name in the cast did it:) I was thinking that too, he's a good actor and the size of the role so far has been quite small, but it has been significant and perhaps he was impressed enough with the script to be happy to fill in one of the shorter parts.
Congenital sphyllis can cause deafness and/or epilepsy.
Only arely (death of the foetus is more likely) and only if passed on by the mother via the placenta. Which would mean both Ruth and Olive's mum having syphilis ~ now THAT would set tongues wagging in a small village in the 60s! Wouldn't Ruth's husband be curious as to how she had mysteriously contracted syphilis, if he didn't have it?
I still think its a crazy theory, and will eat my hat if the conclusion is that the grandfather infected the women of the village with syphilis and caused Olive's deafness (which she didn't have from birth, hence her linguistic abilities) and Alice's epilepsy (which we haven't seen any evidence that she actually has got) and this somehow caused Alice to drown.
Still, I'm prepared to be proven wrong.This is ITV after all !
I'm not sure whether Alice when running through the woods is looking back to check in fear of someone chasing her or just playing a normal game of hide and seek with Olive - I think we are supposed to think the former but suspect it probably the latter.
I also think that the grandma Evelyn is the big key to whatever happened.
- Alice fell in the pool but was rescued by Alice and/or Olive, she was taken back to the house soaking wet and put in a hot bath where she subsequently drowned, and Liz in a panic hurriedly dressed her and put her back in the pool, forgetting the cross and coat in her hurry.
Remember Amy did say that alice preferred hot water....and when old Ruth was bathing baby Alice it was the hot tap that streamed out. Also the bath overflowed so we keep getting references to baths and hot water.
Oh I'm confused and don't know what to believe happened:eek:
Remember Amy did say that alice preferred hot water....and when old Ruth was bathing baby Alice it was the hot tap that streamed out. Also the bath overflowed so we keep getting references to baths and hot water.
Oh I'm confused and don't know what to believe happened:eek:
Did Amy not say she was always wet... and cold. She's probably drawn to the heat. A hot bath is always the most appealing thing if you've been soaked through in the rain isn't it?
Comments
When Nisha went into the shop for some painkillers - or was it the second episode?
We've only seen him the once, haven't we? Which leads me to think it's significant.
I'm still really enjoying this series. I want answers but I'll be sad when it ends.
ASKOR - ASK Olive Runcie
Also, am I the only one thinking that
1. Alice's grandmother has a huge part to play in her death?
2. There is a reason that Ruth has been away from Marchlands for such a long time - maybe she only returned in 2010 because she was unable to do so before then?
I can't wait til Thursday!!
Definitely not. Loads of posts about that:)
Yes, I would also like the answer to that one....we have seen a few clips of Paul yelling at her and the policeman saying if you had done your job properly to Ruth, this wouldnt have happened.
The only comment I can remember is someone - Evelyn perhaps - talking about Ruth being at night class - but surely Alice was out with Robert during the day if he was taking her for a walk with the dog.
So another, so far, unanswered question
She signed 'sorry'.
Now whether that is "sorry that your daughter died" or "sorry for what I know about her death" we don't yet know.
Yes, good theory....... there have been a few ideas on here about Ruth having had another child which was adopted.....I even thought that she had another child, which was not Paul's and Paul and the grandparents were so concerned about the shame that it would bring to the family, that they told Ruth the baby had died and then had it adopted....and the child, as you say, turned out to be Scott.
Could even have been Mark.
Sadly though I think none of our good ideas are going to be in this story line
But just to say I agree with both of your spoiler theories Leicester Hunk......... very believable.
And yes, am another one who agrees with what was posted earlier,,,,, where is the dog ???? very sloppy writing if we dont get the answer to that one....
Ruth was obviously not there at that moment to care for Alice on a 24/7 basis as seems to be the implication she should have done but why couldn't Paul or Evelyn looked after Alice rather than her having to go with Robert?
I also think Olive played a big part, ...although I'm not quite sure how - whether it was an accident and Olive didn't hear Alice's screams or Olive pushed her - but what motive?
Oh I wonder - perhaps jealousy - Olive's mum and Paul had an affair - Olive is the result making Olive and Alice half-sisters - Olive is jealous of fact that Alice has mum and dad and she only has a dad. Perhaps Olive's mum was pestering Paul and grandad was there warning her off which was why Alice was on her own, she overheard the shouting as did Olive and they ran off into the woods..........Olive chasing Alice and the rest is history.
Welcome to DS!!
The thought that Paul and Liz (Olives mom) had been having an affair, (in the early days of his marriage to Ruth) and Olive was the end result, has been pestering me for days now; as a couple of my previous posts on here will disclose. I can't help but think we're 'supposed' to think it's Liz and Robert (Grandfather) due to comments made in previous episodes and in the trailer for the final episode, made by both Robert and Evelyn.
We're told by the Dr that the chances of Robert fathering more children now is remote, but that's now. and doesn't necessarily apply to previous years. In the trailer for the final episode Evelyn says something along the lines of
I think this too and just honestly can't see Robert and Liz having the affair - he just seems too straight laced - I think its just a red herring.
Also as you say the reference to remote chances of fathering more children is now and not in the past.
Going to watch the first episodes again on iPlayer with renewed eyes and see if I can figure out more. My hubby usually figures these things out and is regularly accurate but I'm pleased that he hasn't watched this (he watched the 1st and reckons Robert did it) because it just infuriates me when he's proved right:D
Congenital sphyllis can cause deafness and/or epilepsy.
The gulf being suggested between Evelyn and Robert would suggest that an affair for Robert was entirely possible.
For some reason Ruth has been out (night classes?) and Alice has gone with Robert on his walk when she wouldn't normally. Perhaps she normally left her with Evelyn but Evelyn was out too.
Robert has gone to see Liz and an unknowing Alice has been left to play with Olive. Or maybe he hadn't intended to spend any time with Liz as he had Alice with him but she's stopped him and confronted him/argued with him as he passed the house.
Alice has seen Robert and Liz, or Olive has told her, maybe even taunted her a bit (Olive would feel guilty if it was that) and has run off upset followed by Olive (the shots of Alice running she looks like she's looking back to someone following her). She's fallen in the water and Olive hasn't heard her screams.
I think Paul might know about his dad's affair so blames Ruth for not being there and leaving Alice to have to go with her grandad. His old-fashioned streak thinking Ruth should've stayed at home if there was no other childcare available. I just get the impression everyone knows something that Ruth doesn't... and that might be why Robert's full attention wasn't on his grandchild.
I think Evelyn knows too, hence her point scoring over telling Paul about Ruth and her chat to Ruth about holding things together no matter what.
I really don't think it's any more convoluted than that.
I think you could be onto something there, perhaps we are all trying to make things too complicated and see things that aren't there.
Oh well it will be Thursday soon enough......
Thank you
We know from the route that Alice took Amy on to the pool that her path would have taken her past the house in the 1960's - she could have taken off her coat if she had stopped there but why her cross? IIRC the chain was unbroken which would indicate it was carefully removed rather than torn off.
My thought - Alice fell in the pool but was rescued by Alice and/or Olive, she was taken back to the house soaking wet and put in a hot bath where she subsequently drowned, and Liz in a panic hurriedly dressed her and put her back in the pool, forgetting the cross and coat in her hurry.
Just think, there will be threads on Digital Spy 2040 with posters asking if anyone remembers that great serial from years ago about the haunted house and the drowned girl:D
The only thing is Denis Lawson is a big name. He and Anne Reid are probably the 2 best known actors and I remember thinking in part one that he seemed to have nothing much to say and that he had to be playing a bigger part than that suggested.....hmmmm
Yeah, The First Law of TV Murder, the biggest name in the cast did it:) I was thinking that too, he's a good actor and the size of the role so far has been quite small, but it has been significant and perhaps he was impressed enough with the script to be happy to fill in one of the shorter parts.
Only arely (death of the foetus is more likely) and only if passed on by the mother via the placenta. Which would mean both Ruth and Olive's mum having syphilis ~ now THAT would set tongues wagging in a small village in the 60s! Wouldn't Ruth's husband be curious as to how she had mysteriously contracted syphilis, if he didn't have it?
I still think its a crazy theory, and will eat my hat if the conclusion is that the grandfather infected the women of the village with syphilis and caused Olive's deafness (which she didn't have from birth, hence her linguistic abilities) and Alice's epilepsy (which we haven't seen any evidence that she actually has got) and this somehow caused Alice to drown.
Still, I'm prepared to be proven wrong.This is ITV after all !
I also think that the grandma Evelyn is the big key to whatever happened.
Remember Amy did say that alice preferred hot water....and when old Ruth was bathing baby Alice it was the hot tap that streamed out. Also the bath overflowed so we keep getting references to baths and hot water.
Oh I'm confused and don't know what to believe happened:eek:
Did Amy not say she was always wet... and cold. She's probably drawn to the heat. A hot bath is always the most appealing thing if you've been soaked through in the rain isn't it?