What Jose Mourinho said or implied about a match official is of no interest to me because I'd rather watch paint dry than watch football.
But being as you reckon you know how it works may I refer you back to #196 and my wee poser about electioneering. If that's how it works who stands to gain and who stands to lose circa 7 million potential votes by playing the "this is what they REALLY mean" game?
If propaganda didn't work then no one would use it. But they do because it does.
Same with advertising in general. If it didn't work they wouldn't do.
But they will. and have said 'Workers and shirkers' which by implication divides workers from the unemployed.
Tenuous bit of dot joining there.
Workers and shirkers was nothing but a rhyming soundbite used to summarise two camps. The workFORCE and the workSHY. The unemployed are a part of the workforce albeit not in current employ. You know that, I know that. Only a complete idiot wouldn't and only a complete idiot would insult the unemployed by saying otherwise, which brings me full circle to the "in who's interest is it to imply an insult wad meant" question...
If propaganda didn't work then no one would use it. But they do because it does.
AFAIC propaganda can only work on two types of people:
The ignorant who can't be arsed to look beyond it and subsequently fall for it
and
Those for whom it reinforces their own preconceived notions.
I don't buy the interpretation that suggests the tories consider the unemployed as workshy scrougers. Not because I vote for them and wear rose tinted specs (there's a number of things I oppose) but because logic dictates otherwise.
You don't gain and/or retain power by p!ssing off up to 7 million members of the electorate.
If you can show us how Labour are using language to divide people, then I would be happy to see examples?
I'm not saying they are not doing it, I just can't think of a good example unlike the 'Workers and Shirkers' one.
You jest surely?
Off the top of my head and without even stopping to think there's:
mates in the city, bullingdon club, eaton poshboys, tory toffs, taxcut for millionaires, party for the privileged.....
...you'll find most if not all of those class divide titbits pouring out of every Labour orifice on every media platform imaginable everyday for the past 4 years!!
No need for any implied references either. They openly play the class warfare card at every given opportunity. Are you telling me that's not divisive?
Since 1997 Labour reinvented the word spin and turned it into an artform. They even used it to justify an illegal war ffs. Did I imagine Alistair Campbell?
No they aren't. What you'll find is that the left take the words used to describe those extreme examples and spin it back by using the "sweeping generalisation by association" ploy thus allowing them (and the likes of you who obviously fall for it) to criticise.
It's cheap, tasteless, underhand political spin on behalf of the left to continue perpetuating this myth in order to curry favour with those who don't follow politics that closely.
You can prove me wrong quite easily....
Simply find a quote from any tory MP whereby they implicitly describe all unemployed people as workshy scroungers.
I won't hold my breath
The words are not used to describe the worst examples, they are used when referring to people on benefits to describe people on benefits, there is no mention of the deserving poor when talking about benefits only the undeserving, so it is implict those on benfits are undeserving. They also rely on the media that supports them, media headlines based on DWP briefings are the cheerleaders as far as portraying people on benefits as shirkers and scroungers.
David Cameron Times interview 2010 after becoming Prime MInister "There is no way of dealing with an 11 per cent budget deficit just by hitting either the rich or the welfare scrounger,"
David Cameron "We back the workers; they back the shirkers."
George Osborne's speech Conservative Conference 2012 "Where is the fairness, we ask, for the shift-worker, leaving home in the dark hours of the early morning, who looks up at the closed blinds of their next door neighbour sleeping off a life on benefits?"
George Osborne Autumn Statement “But fairness is also about being fair to the person who leaves home every morning to go out to work and sees their neighbour still asleep, living a life on benefits."
Ian Duncan Smith on Remploy “Is it a kindness to stick people in some factory where they are not doing any work at all? Just making cups of coffee? I promise you this is better."
The Trussell Trust, night pledged to investigate after volunteers were filmed admitting that people could take free food without checks, and that many visitors were asylum-seekers.
One worker at a bank run by the trust said that people regularly ‘bounce around’ locations to receive more vouchers than they are entitled to.
A Mail on Sunday investigation has also found inadequate checks on who claims the vouchers, after a reporter obtained three days’ worth of food simply by telling staff at a Citizen’s Advice Bureau – without any proof – that he was unemployed.
The Daily Mail is starting a crusade to demonise foodbanks and charitable giving to the poor as well as those who run and donate to such organisations for two reasons, to abolish foodbanks and welfare for the poor. Their readers will only be appeased when the Trussell Trust is abolished (or outlawed by the Government) and we have at most a stripped down welfare system purely designed to provide free labour to businesses via workfare, if not the full abolition of it with the poor being made destitute and left in the gutter purely for appeasement, vengeance and a false sense of social justice.
So its a "Shocking" rise in people using foodbanks, so what, excatley would you do about it, Presumably bigger benefits, so tax rises for all?
I would remove the holes in the welfare system. In my opinion no one shold be left with no income due to DWP delays or the DWP reconsideration process. They should receive a level of support at least equal to JSA. And no one should be left on no income due to DWP sanctions they should at least be entitled to hardship payments. No one should be in the situation where they literally have no income and are having to turn to charity. I don't mind paying taxes so people are not left destitute.
As for those on full benefit entitlement or low income employment. The vast majority have enough income that they are able to afford at least the basic essentials including food, and much more. The vast majority of these people could survive without food banks.
A major problem I expect is debt, that many people have existing debt. More regulation on lending and caps on interest rates that can be charged, and making it easier for those in untenable financial stress to be absolved of their debts, I expect would greatly help. Lenders are too able to profiteer on the plight of the poor, raising interest rates, and irresponsible and predatory lending and exploitive interest rates.
The words are not used to describe the worst examples, they are used when referring to people on benefits to describe people on benefits, there is no mention of the deserving poor when talking about benefits only the undeserving, so it is implict those on benfits are undeserving. They also rely on the media that supports them, media headlines based on DWP briefings are the cheerleaders as far as portraying people on benefits as shirkers and scroungers.
David Cameron Times interview 2010 after becoming Prime MInister "There is no way of dealing with an 11 per cent budget deficit just by hitting either the rich or the welfare scrounger,"
David Cameron "We back the workers; they back the shirkers."
George Osborne's speech Conservative Conference 2012 "Where is the fairness, we ask, for the shift-worker, leaving home in the dark hours of the early morning, who looks up at the closed blinds of their next door neighbour sleeping off a life on benefits?"
George Osborne Autumn Statement “But fairness is also about being fair to the person who leaves home every morning to go out to work and sees their neighbour still asleep, living a life on benefits."
Ian Duncan Smith on Remploy “Is it a kindness to stick people in some factory where they are not doing any work at all? Just making cups of coffee? I promise you this is better."
Utter rubbish. Cameron - just two months ago
Those who can’t work will be always supported,
Your quotes - are you suggesting that governments should never, ever talk about "shirkers" or the idea that some people live a life on benefits - or that such people simply don't exist?
You mean.
David Cameron.
"Those who can’t work will be always supported, but those who can work have the responsibility to do so. The welfare system should never take that responsibility away. Whatever your religious or spiritual perspective, I believe very firmly that it is wrong to penalise those who work hard and do the right thing while rewarding those who can work, but don’t."
Yes he excludes those who can't work from the rest before referring to the workshy. Usualy they don't bother first excluding those genuinely unable to work, before describing those on benefits as undeserving, or they claim most of those claiming to be genuinely unable to work are actually capable of working.
Your quotes - are you suggesting that governments should never, ever talk about "shirkers" or the idea that some people live a life on benefits - or that such people simply don't exist?
No I was giving quotes in reply to a post which is quoted at the start of my post. As far as implicitly claiming those on benefits are all undeserving.
In the quotes I cited they do not mention the majority who are deserving or qualify what they are saying as only applying to a minority of people on benefits before they describe them as undeserving. So their description of people on benefits implictly is people on benefits. If someone says people on benefits and then describes them that is how they are characterizing people on benefits. In contrast when referring to rich people and tax evaders they usually or always make it clear that the majority of rich people pay their taxes, and that tax evaders are a minority or that they are only refering to those who are evading tax, they do not characterize rich people in general as tax evaders and bad people.
The Daily Mail is starting a crusade to demonise foodbanks and charitable giving to the poor as well as those who run and donate to such organisations ...
The Mail runs an article with a headline claiming their reporter got free food, no questions asked. Then they go on to write about how they were asked a string of questions, including name and address, by the two separate members of staff at Citizens Advice Bureau, and as a result of lying through their teeth, got a voucher to go to a foodbank.
I dont get why those ppl who seem to think every one is fiddling there need for food banks get so upset about it. So you dont agree with food banks and you dont donate to them. Fine. Its not costing you a penny.
The rest of us will carry on donating to food banks becaus we reckon there ARE ppl in genuine need. Nice of you to worry about how we spend our money but its up to us what charitys we donate to.
Fine. I should of said in the following examples there is no mention of the deserving poor when talking about benefits.
You mean.
David Cameron.
"Those who can’t work will be always supported, but those who can work have the responsibility to do so. The welfare system should never take that responsibility away. Whatever your religious or spiritual perspective, I believe very firmly that it is wrong to penalise those who work hard and do the right thing while rewarding those who can work, but don’t."
Yes he excludes those who can't work from the rest before referring to the workshy. Usualy they don't bother first excluding those genuinely unable to work, before describing those on benefits as undeserving, or they claim most of those claiming to be genuinely unable to work are actually capable of working.
No I was giving quotes in reply to a post which is quoted at the start of my post. As far as implicitly claiming those on benefits are all undeserving.
In the quotes I cited they do not mention the majority who are deserving or qualify what they are saying as only applying to a minority of people on benefits before they describe them as undeserving. So their description of people on benefits implictly is people on benefits. If someone says people on benefits and then describes them that is how they are characterizing people on benefits. In contrast when referring to rich people and tax evaders they usually or always make it clear that the majority of rich people pay their taxes, and that tax evaders are a minority or that they are only refering to those who are evading tax, they do not characterize rich people in general as tax evaders and bad people.
You're inferring something that has never been said. It's the same as seeing half the picture and deciding you've seen enough and know what the rest of the picture looks like. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, to add two and two together to make five million if you so choose - but given that no Tory Minister or MP has ever said that everyone on benefits is a shirker (or words to that effect) wouldn't it be a more reasonable assumption that they DON'T think that way? What they have said, consistently, is that the welfare state is not there for people who can work. Do you have a problem with that?
Just helps go to show the vile agenda of the Daily Mail. Makes most normal decent people feel sick.
Perhaps most normal decent people would expect their charitable donations go to the genuine needy and not those who just wander in off the street and spin a few tales to take advantage.
No they aren't. What you'll find is that the left take the words used to describe those extreme examples and spin it back by using the "sweeping generalisation by association" ploy thus allowing them (and the likes of you who obviously fall for it) to criticise.
It's cheap, tasteless, underhand political spin on behalf of the left to continue perpetuating this myth in order to curry favour with those who don't follow politics that closely.
You can prove me wrong quite easily....
Simply find a quote from any tory MP whereby they implicitly describe all unemployed people as workshy scroungers.
I won't hold my breath
Will this do ?
Tory MP in “Scrounger Cards” Call
A Conservative MP is today is calling on the government to introduce a pre-paid welfare cash card. MP for Scunthorpe, Jevin Sir-Beaverbrooke Gradgrind suggests the card should be given to those on benefits to prevent them wasting their money on alcohol, cigarettes, satellite television and gambling.
Lord Pecksniff of Abergavenny, director of A4TOSSerco said yesterday, “this is a fantastic project, and not simply because it will personally net me millions. We are delighted to be involved in an initiative that puts the needs of the workshy scroungers first - a return, if you like, to traditional English values.
It may prove useful to remember that on the 18th December 2013, 294 UK MPs voted against holding an investigation into Hunger and Food Poverty in the United Kingdom.
Comments
If propaganda didn't work then no one would use it. But they do because it does.
Same with advertising in general. If it didn't work they wouldn't do.
Tenuous bit of dot joining there.
Workers and shirkers was nothing but a rhyming soundbite used to summarise two camps. The workFORCE and the workSHY. The unemployed are a part of the workforce albeit not in current employ. You know that, I know that. Only a complete idiot wouldn't and only a complete idiot would insult the unemployed by saying otherwise, which brings me full circle to the "in who's interest is it to imply an insult wad meant" question...
Labour's or the tories?
AFAIC propaganda can only work on two types of people:
The ignorant who can't be arsed to look beyond it and subsequently fall for it
and
Those for whom it reinforces their own preconceived notions.
I don't buy the interpretation that suggests the tories consider the unemployed as workshy scrougers. Not because I vote for them and wear rose tinted specs (there's a number of things I oppose) but because logic dictates otherwise.
You don't gain and/or retain power by p!ssing off up to 7 million members of the electorate.
You jest surely?
Off the top of my head and without even stopping to think there's:
mates in the city, bullingdon club, eaton poshboys, tory toffs, taxcut for millionaires, party for the privileged.....
...you'll find most if not all of those class divide titbits pouring out of every Labour orifice on every media platform imaginable everyday for the past 4 years!!
No need for any implied references either. They openly play the class warfare card at every given opportunity. Are you telling me that's not divisive?
Since 1997 Labour reinvented the word spin and turned it into an artform. They even used it to justify an illegal war ffs. Did I imagine Alistair Campbell?
They make snake oil salesmen look straight
David Cameron Times interview 2010 after becoming Prime MInister "There is no way of dealing with an 11 per cent budget deficit just by hitting either the rich or the welfare scrounger,"
David Cameron "We back the workers; they back the shirkers."
George Osborne's speech Conservative Conference 2012 "Where is the fairness, we ask, for the shift-worker, leaving home in the dark hours of the early morning, who looks up at the closed blinds of their next door neighbour sleeping off a life on benefits?"
George Osborne Autumn Statement “But fairness is also about being fair to the person who leaves home every morning to go out to work and sees their neighbour still asleep, living a life on benefits."
Ian Duncan Smith on Remploy “Is it a kindness to stick people in some factory where they are not doing any work at all? Just making cups of coffee? I promise you this is better."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2608606/No-ID-no-checks-vouchers-sob-stories-The-truth-shock-food-bank-claims.html
As for those on full benefit entitlement or low income employment. The vast majority have enough income that they are able to afford at least the basic essentials including food, and much more. The vast majority of these people could survive without food banks.
A major problem I expect is debt, that many people have existing debt. More regulation on lending and caps on interest rates that can be charged, and making it easier for those in untenable financial stress to be absolved of their debts, I expect would greatly help. Lenders are too able to profiteer on the plight of the poor, raising interest rates, and irresponsible and predatory lending and exploitive interest rates.
Utter rubbish. Cameron - just two months ago
Your quotes - are you suggesting that governments should never, ever talk about "shirkers" or the idea that some people live a life on benefits - or that such people simply don't exist?
You mean.
David Cameron.
"Those who can’t work will be always supported, but those who can work have the responsibility to do so. The welfare system should never take that responsibility away. Whatever your religious or spiritual perspective, I believe very firmly that it is wrong to penalise those who work hard and do the right thing while rewarding those who can work, but don’t."
Yes he excludes those who can't work from the rest before referring to the workshy. Usualy they don't bother first excluding those genuinely unable to work, before describing those on benefits as undeserving, or they claim most of those claiming to be genuinely unable to work are actually capable of working.
No I was giving quotes in reply to a post which is quoted at the start of my post. As far as implicitly claiming those on benefits are all undeserving.
In the quotes I cited they do not mention the majority who are deserving or qualify what they are saying as only applying to a minority of people on benefits before they describe them as undeserving. So their description of people on benefits implictly is people on benefits. If someone says people on benefits and then describes them that is how they are characterizing people on benefits. In contrast when referring to rich people and tax evaders they usually or always make it clear that the majority of rich people pay their taxes, and that tax evaders are a minority or that they are only refering to those who are evading tax, they do not characterize rich people in general as tax evaders and bad people.
The Mail runs an article with a headline claiming their reporter got free food, no questions asked. Then they go on to write about how they were asked a string of questions, including name and address, by the two separate members of staff at Citizens Advice Bureau, and as a result of lying through their teeth, got a voucher to go to a foodbank.
https://twitter.com/minifig/status/457790680480636928
There are queues out of the door at a lot of CAB centres, so he's wasting their time, even if he did return the food.
But using Mail logic, anything that makes it harder for needy people to get help is a win.:(
The rest of us will carry on donating to food banks becaus we reckon there ARE ppl in genuine need. Nice of you to worry about how we spend our money but its up to us what charitys we donate to.
You're inferring something that has never been said. It's the same as seeing half the picture and deciding you've seen enough and know what the rest of the picture looks like. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, to add two and two together to make five million if you so choose - but given that no Tory Minister or MP has ever said that everyone on benefits is a shirker (or words to that effect) wouldn't it be a more reasonable assumption that they DON'T think that way? What they have said, consistently, is that the welfare state is not there for people who can work. Do you have a problem with that?
Did a classic double take there. You sound exactly like another poster on this board.
Perhaps most normal decent people would expect their charitable donations go to the genuine needy and not those who just wander in off the street and spin a few tales to take advantage.
Well you dont have to be unemployed to need to use food banks CAB reported that more working people are needing to use food banks
Will this do ?
http://bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/162-tory-mp-in-scrounger-cards-call.html
that chap from the daily mail seems to have committed fraud, perhaps the police would like to have a word with him?
You do realise that's a spoof article
How? as he returned everything he was given. there was no intent to deprive anyone or gain any advantage
Obtaining goods and services by deception - moot point that he later returned them, it's fraud not theft.
Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud
There was no gain therefore not fraud.
Undercover journalists do far worse in their line (pose as drug dealers) but don't get arrested.
Mine isn't but is your Member of Parliament here?
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