Something the people of Greece may like to think about...
"“All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.”
— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson.
“History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance.”
— US President James Madison
“Bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them with the power to create credit; and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... If you want to be slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers control money and control credit.”
— Sir Josiah Stamp, Director, Bank of England, 1940.
Greece collapsed, but the bluffing was on both sides. At no point did Germany consider booting Greece out the EZ. The proposal was drawn up to strengthen Germany's position and it worked.
The same could be said of Tsipras, at no point to he contemplate leaving the EZ. All those saying Greece was out the EZ and it was only a matter of time will probably not learn from what happened, but to many, it was obvious from day one an agreement would be found.
That was a bluff for a stronger negotiating position, many MEPs spotted it early on. Germany wanted to keep Greece in the EZ, but only through terms that would pacify the German voters.
I agree. I wrote this on my facebook wall on Thursday:
"Merkel doesn't want Grexit. The German people wouldn't entrust Tsipras with a fiver, nevermind € billions. Schäuble and Merkel need some sort of "reassurance" to sell a deal to the public".
There were a few dead giveaways that this was an orchestrated bluff:
1) the silence of the SPD. The Social Democrats definitely never wanted a Grexit. Gabriel joined the "we have trust issues" wagon early on and that was all that ever came from that side of the Grand Coalition. If they thought Merkel was serious, they would have attacked her for destroying the Euro and EU.
2) The whole 5 year exit plan was a 1 page paper that Schäuble had just drafted on Friday. It also would have led to a split in the German government coalition.
3) Schäuble is a hardliner and certainly not easy to deal with but he is also a staunch European. Merkel is not even a hardliner...
Edit: Going by the poll results I posted earlier, it worked.
Some German commentators are feeling the shame and voicing their regrets:
The deal is so strict that even Germany - Athens' toughest negotiating partner - voiced shame at the terms, with one commentator stating: 'There is a fine line between saving and punishing Greece'.
With much of the party up in arms, Tsipras loyalists are today hard at work to convince a sceptical party that the tough cuts could be softened through alternative measures.
That will prove no easy feat, however, as even Germans appeared to voice regret at the terms of a deal that has led to them being cast as the ugly bully of Europe once again.
With Second World War imagery being used to portray Chancellor Angela Merkel and her hardline finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble as cold-hearted bullies in the mould of the dreaded Gestapo, even the country's own media commentators are voicing horror at the terms of the bailout.
'The German government destroyed seven decades of post-war diplomacy on a single weekend ...The package that was finally hammered out is a catalogue of cruelties that read like a plan to humiliate Greece,' news magazine Spiegel said.
Meanwhile Mathias Mueller von Blumencron of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Germany's most influential newspaper, tweeted: 'There is a fine line between saving and punishing Greece. This night the line has disappeared.'
German criticism of the bailout didn't end there, with Munich-based Sueddeutsche Zeitung saying: 'Merkel managed to revive the image of the ugly, hard-hearted and stingy German that had just begun to fade.
'Every cent of aid to Greece that the Germans tried to save will have to be spent two and three times over in the coming years to polish that image again,' it added.
Also from others:
During weekend negotiations, two German comedians captured the public mood, creating an Internet sensation with a satirical video called 'Our precious German euros'.
The pair mimic loud-mouthed wealthy Germans having a phone conversation in which they s quote headlines from pro-Grexit daily paper Bild.
'I think we Germans should be asked if we want to keep paying!' shouts one. 'Sell your islands, you broke Greeks... and the Acropolis too!' screams the other.
The sketch - viewed more than one million times on YouTube - ends with the words: 'This summer, we Germans have a historic opportunity -- not to behave like assholes for once.'
'We have squandered an enormous degree of likeability with a communications disaster,' said Constanze Stelzenmueller, a German-born fellow of the Washington think tank Brookings Institution.
Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer said the Greek crisis had given rise to a rebirth of nationalism and accused Merkel of failing to use her considerable power to persuade Germans to 'look beyond their wallets for the sake of Europe.'
'She has not argued or acted politically but as a bookkeeper', he said.
Really shows wht a bad idea one european currency was, and to a lesser degree how a 'United Staet of eurpoe' seems quite a rubbish idea too. To have a single curency although involved need to be making decisions best for those using this currency. Whereas this whole Grrek issue has been total slef-interest by all parties from start to finish. Greece joined, and were invited to join, for self-interest of both parties - nothing wrong with that bit though. But the corrupt govt and upper classes of greece took this opportunity to milk EU for as much as they could to line thier own pockets, the EU knew this was happening but for wh\tever reason were happy to have Greece on this basis.
So the insolvency of Greece in 2010 had some sort of inevitability once the global crash of 2008. But EU in total self-interest in 2010 bailed out an insolvent country which had no hope of ever paying back the loans it was given. This was only done in the interests of the big countries using the euro because of economic fear to rest of EU of an insolvent greece.
By January 2015 it didnt matter who was in charge of Greece, that sociopathic german finanace minister had already decided the euro (and poss EU) was better off without Greece. Really interessting full transcript of an interview with Yanis Varoukafis where he states at no point did germany want a sensible deal with Greece or to negotiate on anything: http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece
By January 2015 it didnt matter who was in charge of Greece, that sociopathic german finanace minister had already decided the euro (and poss EU) was better off without Greece. Really interessting full transcript of an interview with Yanis Varoukafis where he states at no point did germany want a sensible deal with Greece or to negotiate on anything: http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece
What was it William Hague said. Something about a burning building with no exits. He said this at a time when many on here were enthralled with Europhile Blair. He fought 2001 election on keeping pound. Roundly ridiculed at time but it is readily accepted now that the campaign with 'facts' was key to influencing Brown. Did nothing for him or Tories as electorate weren't listening but it frightened just enough people. Add on top it was Major who negotiated a Euro opt out. How close we came.
What was it William Hague said. Something about a burning building with no exits. He said this at a time when many on here were enthralled with Europhile Blair. He fought 2001 election on keeping pound. Roundly ridiculed at time but it is readily accepted now that the campaign with 'facts' was key to influencing Brown. Did nothing for him or Tories as electorate weren't listening but it frightened just enough people. Add on top it was Major who negotiated a Euro opt out. How close we came.
Merkel and her cronies would be goose stepping down Pall Mall by now
GREEK PM TSIPRAS has just finished an extensive interview tonight on Greek state TV.
HE SAYS GREECE WOULD NOT HAVE RESERVES TO SUPPORT RETURN TO ITS OWN CURRENCY IN CASE OF DISORDERLY DEFAULT.
Says looked outside europe for assistance but none was on offer.
Doesn't agree with the deal but for the sake of preventing Grexit he will not shy from his responsibilities and will endeavour to implement it.
Tsipras said that France, Cyprus and Italy were allies in the negotiations.
He says we had no plan B but Germany's Schauble had.
GREEK PM TSIPRAS has just finished an extensive interview tonight on Greek state TV.
HE SAYS GREECE WOULD NOT HAVE RESERVES TO SUPPORT RETURN TO ITS OWN CURRENCY IN CASE OF DISORDERLY DEFAULT.
Says looked outside europe for assistance but none was on offer.
Doesn't agree with the deal but for the sake of preventing Grexit he will not shy from his responsibilities and will endeavour to implement it.
Tsipras said that France, Cyprus and Italy were allies in the negotiations.
He says we had no plan B but Germany's Schauble had.
He had a dig at Varoufakis too it seems:
"Being an excellent academic, doesn't necessarily make one a good politician"
And
"I cannot blame Varoufakis for mistakes made. I take the responsibility, I am the prime minister."
On asking for assistance from outside Europe:
"I went to Russia, China and U.S. and there were no other options."
Shows how wrong the media got it with their Russian-Greek alliance stories.
I had to laugh at that DM link - they know pretty much nothing about the 'public mood' in Germany. As others have said, the Germans don't really have much time for Tspiras a large part of Germany's hardline stance was fear for a backlash at home. There's been an awful lot of criticism of Germany, from commentators etc, but outside of social media there appears very little evidence that your average person sees Germany's position as this terrible, awful thing.This 'look beyond their wallets' guff is nonsense - Greek can't honestly keep on bailed out all the time, that in itself is unrealistic, and it is not unreasonable to want conditions that Greeks will reform their economy prior to granting a third bailout.
GREEK PM TSIPRAS has just finished an extensive interview tonight on Greek state TV.
HE SAYS GREECE WOULD NOT HAVE RESERVES TO SUPPORT RETURN TO ITS OWN CURRENCY IN CASE OF DISORDERLY DEFAULT.
Says looked outside europe for assistance but none was on offer.
Doesn't agree with the deal but for the sake of preventing Grexit he will not shy from his responsibilities and will endeavour to implement it.
Tsipras said that France, Cyprus and Italy were allies in the negotiations.
He says we had no plan B but Germany's Schauble had.
He also said he was told by the troika/creditors that there was no point holding elections in bailed out countries - might as well cancel the forthcoming Irish and Spanish general election then. You can vote Podemos or Sinn Fein if you want but it makes no difference.
I had to laugh at that DM link - they know pretty much nothing about the 'public mood' in Germany. As others have said, the Germans don't really have much time for Tspiras a large part of Germany's hardline stance was fear for a backlash at home. There's been an awful lot of criticism of Germany, from commentators etc, but outside of social media there appears very little evidence that your average person sees Germany's position as this terrible, awful thing.This 'look beyond their wallets' guff is nonsense - Greek can't honestly keep on bailed out all the time, that in itself is unrealistic, and it is not unreasonable to want conditions that Greeks will reform their economy prior to granting a third bailout.
I don't think the Daily Mail said anything about the "public mood" in their article. They were talking about comments by journalists in newspapers, a couple of comedians and a former government minister.
I would be interested to know what the public mood is though, but my German isn't good enough.
You are right though. Greece cannot go on being bailed out as they can't even pay the interest on the previous ones. So why are the EZ leaders and the creditors keeping on offering them? For their own ends, perhaps?
He had a dig at Varoufakis too it seems:
"Being an excellent academic, doesn't necessarily make one a good politician"
And
"I cannot blame Varoufakis for mistakes made. I take the responsibility, I am the prime minister."
On asking for assistance from outside Europe:
"I went to Russia, China and U.S. and there were no other options."
Shows how wrong the media got it with their Russian-Greek alliance stories.
I think I read somewhere (from a Russian perspective) that Russia had not offered any loans, but there was talk about the gasline. Not sure how true that is, either.
I don't think the Daily Mail said anything about the "public mood" in their article. They were talking about comments by journalists in newspapers, a couple of comedians and a former government minister.
I would be interested to know what the public mood is though, but my German isn't good enough.
You are right though. Greece cannot go on being bailed out as they can't even pay the interest on the previous ones. So why are the EZ leaders and the creditors keeping on offering them? For their own ends, perhaps?
During weekend negotiations, two German comedians captured the public mood, creating an Internet sensation with a satirical video called 'Our precious German euros'.
From the article linked.
I think several polls (a recent one as has been posted by an FM in the last 1/2 pages) have been conducted during the crisis showing the public mood in Germany. As for Greece being bailed out, most of Northern/Eastern Europe didn't want to bail out Greece. Those who were most keen to do so were Italy, France (and according to Tspiras Cyprus too), as well as the likes of Juncker and Tusk.
He also said he was told by the troika/creditors that there was no point holding elections in bailed out countries - might as well cancel the forthcoming Irish and Spanish general election then. You can vote Podemos or Sinn Fein if you want but it makes no difference.
Thankfully for us Irish and Spanish we've exited our bailouts.
The Troika have long since packed their bags and left.
During weekend negotiations, two German comedians captured the public mood, creating an Internet sensation with a satirical video called 'Our precious German euros'.
From the article linked.
I think several polls (a recent one as has been posted by an FM in the last 1/2 pages) have been conducted during the crisis showing the public mood in Germany. As for Greece being bailed out, most of Northern/Eastern Europe didn't want to bail out Greece. Those who were most keen to do so were Italy, France (and according to Tspiras Cyprus too), as well as the likes of Juncker and Tusk.
Most of the comments are in German, naturally, so I can't gauge what the reaction is on the whole (apart from the upticks, but they could be from anyone around the world).
the euro is a german vanity project and a web from which the spiders poorer victims cannot ever escape. cleary greece is bankrupt and cant pay the interest on its debts. so how can it get even more baliout funds and then be expected to pay the interest out of those on its already massive debts. its car crash stuff and ridiculous. i do agree its now a debt colony of the eu empire. but ive no sympathy at all for greece as its all their own making
Most of the comments are in German, naturally, so I can't gauge what the reaction is on the whole (apart from the upticks, but they could be from anyone around the world).
Do people still believe in polls?
Well, they are all we have at this stage tbh they are more reliable that social media. So far German opinion polls don't seem to have been made a mockery of like the polls in Israel, Greece and the UK. Even opinion polls in the UK weren't completely wrong (e,g. Scotland).
democratically elected leaders of EU countries can and will be overthrown if the (unelected) EU leaders want it. And even replaced by the EU without election
referenda are overruled if the results go against them
elections are a waste of time for some countries
agreements can be ripped up - Jean-Claude Juncker vs David Cameron, in bailing out other EZ countries, even when you aren't a member of the EZ
"when things get serious, you lie" - Jean-Claude Juncker
Unelected EU leaders will make laws for other EU countries, whether they want them or not
Greek PM: I signed a bailout deal from 'vindictive' euro leaders that I don't believe in
"The hard truth is this one-way street for Greece was imposed on us."
His bitter display came after he accepted help at the eleventh hour from a lengthy eurozone summit, which stopped the country's financial collapse for a third time.
He said creditors displayed a "vindictive" stance over the country's referendum, which saw the elecorate rule out a first bailout deal.
...But he attacked Greece's lenders, saying "they wanted to take revenge".
Comments
"“All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation.”
— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson.
“History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance.”
— US President James Madison
“Bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them with the power to create credit; and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... If you want to be slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers control money and control credit.”
— Sir Josiah Stamp, Director, Bank of England, 1940.
That is the real problem in Greece
from - http://www.michaeljournal.org/quotesonmoney.htm
Greece collapsed, but the bluffing was on both sides. At no point did Germany consider booting Greece out the EZ. The proposal was drawn up to strengthen Germany's position and it worked.
The same could be said of Tsipras, at no point to he contemplate leaving the EZ. All those saying Greece was out the EZ and it was only a matter of time will probably not learn from what happened, but to many, it was obvious from day one an agreement would be found.
I agree. I wrote this on my facebook wall on Thursday:
"Merkel doesn't want Grexit. The German people wouldn't entrust Tsipras with a fiver, nevermind € billions. Schäuble and Merkel need some sort of "reassurance" to sell a deal to the public".
There were a few dead giveaways that this was an orchestrated bluff:
1) the silence of the SPD. The Social Democrats definitely never wanted a Grexit. Gabriel joined the "we have trust issues" wagon early on and that was all that ever came from that side of the Grand Coalition. If they thought Merkel was serious, they would have attacked her for destroying the Euro and EU.
2) The whole 5 year exit plan was a 1 page paper that Schäuble had just drafted on Friday. It also would have led to a split in the German government coalition.
3) Schäuble is a hardliner and certainly not easy to deal with but he is also a staunch European. Merkel is not even a hardliner...
Edit: Going by the poll results I posted earlier, it worked.
The deal is so strict that even Germany - Athens' toughest negotiating partner - voiced shame at the terms, with one commentator stating: 'There is a fine line between saving and punishing Greece'.
With much of the party up in arms, Tsipras loyalists are today hard at work to convince a sceptical party that the tough cuts could be softened through alternative measures.
That will prove no easy feat, however, as even Germans appeared to voice regret at the terms of a deal that has led to them being cast as the ugly bully of Europe once again.
With Second World War imagery being used to portray Chancellor Angela Merkel and her hardline finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble as cold-hearted bullies in the mould of the dreaded Gestapo, even the country's own media commentators are voicing horror at the terms of the bailout.
'The German government destroyed seven decades of post-war diplomacy on a single weekend ...The package that was finally hammered out is a catalogue of cruelties that read like a plan to humiliate Greece,' news magazine Spiegel said.
Meanwhile Mathias Mueller von Blumencron of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Germany's most influential newspaper, tweeted: 'There is a fine line between saving and punishing Greece. This night the line has disappeared.'
German criticism of the bailout didn't end there, with Munich-based Sueddeutsche Zeitung saying: 'Merkel managed to revive the image of the ugly, hard-hearted and stingy German that had just begun to fade.
'Every cent of aid to Greece that the Germans tried to save will have to be spent two and three times over in the coming years to polish that image again,' it added.
Also from others:
During weekend negotiations, two German comedians captured the public mood, creating an Internet sensation with a satirical video called 'Our precious German euros'.
The pair mimic loud-mouthed wealthy Germans having a phone conversation in which they s quote headlines from pro-Grexit daily paper Bild.
'I think we Germans should be asked if we want to keep paying!' shouts one. 'Sell your islands, you broke Greeks... and the Acropolis too!' screams the other.
The sketch - viewed more than one million times on YouTube - ends with the words: 'This summer, we Germans have a historic opportunity -- not to behave like assholes for once.'
'We have squandered an enormous degree of likeability with a communications disaster,' said Constanze Stelzenmueller, a German-born fellow of the Washington think tank Brookings Institution.
Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer said the Greek crisis had given rise to a rebirth of nationalism and accused Merkel of failing to use her considerable power to persuade Germans to 'look beyond their wallets for the sake of Europe.'
'She has not argued or acted politically but as a bookkeeper', he said.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3160873/Greek-Prime-Minister-Tsipras-faces-battle-quell-revolt-ministers-agreeing-austerity-measures-GERMANS-ashamed-forcing-them.html
So the insolvency of Greece in 2010 had some sort of inevitability once the global crash of 2008. But EU in total self-interest in 2010 bailed out an insolvent country which had no hope of ever paying back the loans it was given. This was only done in the interests of the big countries using the euro because of economic fear to rest of EU of an insolvent greece.
2011 the undemocratic EU put their man in charge of Greece to ensure some hope of greece doing as told
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2063756/Eurocrats-imposed-Greece-Italy-Id-governed-100-people-phone-book.html
By January 2015 it didnt matter who was in charge of Greece, that sociopathic german finanace minister had already decided the euro (and poss EU) was better off without Greece. Really interessting full transcript of an interview with Yanis Varoukafis where he states at no point did germany want a sensible deal with Greece or to negotiate on anything:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece
Merkel and her cronies would be goose stepping down Pall Mall by now
HE SAYS GREECE WOULD NOT HAVE RESERVES TO SUPPORT RETURN TO ITS OWN CURRENCY IN CASE OF DISORDERLY DEFAULT.
Says looked outside europe for assistance but none was on offer.
Doesn't agree with the deal but for the sake of preventing Grexit he will not shy from his responsibilities and will endeavour to implement it.
Tsipras said that France, Cyprus and Italy were allies in the negotiations.
He says we had no plan B but Germany's Schauble had.
He had a dig at Varoufakis too it seems:
"Being an excellent academic, doesn't necessarily make one a good politician"
And
"I cannot blame Varoufakis for mistakes made. I take the responsibility, I am the prime minister."
On asking for assistance from outside Europe:
"I went to Russia, China and U.S. and there were no other options."
Shows how wrong the media got it with their Russian-Greek alliance stories.
He also said he was told by the troika/creditors that there was no point holding elections in bailed out countries - might as well cancel the forthcoming Irish and Spanish general election then. You can vote Podemos or Sinn Fein if you want but it makes no difference.
I don't think the Daily Mail said anything about the "public mood" in their article. They were talking about comments by journalists in newspapers, a couple of comedians and a former government minister.
I would be interested to know what the public mood is though, but my German isn't good enough.
You are right though. Greece cannot go on being bailed out as they can't even pay the interest on the previous ones. So why are the EZ leaders and the creditors keeping on offering them? For their own ends, perhaps?
I think I read somewhere (from a Russian perspective) that Russia had not offered any loans, but there was talk about the gasline. Not sure how true that is, either.
During weekend negotiations, two German comedians captured the public mood, creating an Internet sensation with a satirical video called 'Our precious German euros'.
From the article linked.
I think several polls (a recent one as has been posted by an FM in the last 1/2 pages) have been conducted during the crisis showing the public mood in Germany. As for Greece being bailed out, most of Northern/Eastern Europe didn't want to bail out Greece. Those who were most keen to do so were Italy, France (and according to Tspiras Cyprus too), as well as the likes of Juncker and Tusk.
Thankfully for us Irish and Spanish we've exited our bailouts.
The Troika have long since packed their bags and left.
It has turned into a total bloody nightmare, the EU must wish they had never thought of it!
Oops, sorry. I stand corrected.
And here is the video (with English subtitles):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktqKNu4N9Ds
Most of the comments are in German, naturally, so I can't gauge what the reaction is on the whole (apart from the upticks, but they could be from anyone around the world).
Do people still believe in polls?
It's an OXI from me.
And they will be unpacking their bags into some very nice real estate in Greece, and will be there for some time
Well, they are all we have at this stage tbh they are more reliable that social media. So far German opinion polls don't seem to have been made a mockery of like the polls in Israel, Greece and the UK. Even opinion polls in the UK weren't completely wrong (e,g. Scotland).
democratically elected leaders of EU countries can and will be overthrown if the (unelected) EU leaders want it. And even replaced by the EU without election
referenda are overruled if the results go against them
elections are a waste of time for some countries
agreements can be ripped up - Jean-Claude Juncker vs David Cameron, in bailing out other EZ countries, even when you aren't a member of the EZ
"when things get serious, you lie" - Jean-Claude Juncker
Unelected EU leaders will make laws for other EU countries, whether they want them or not
That's democracy according to the EU.
Anything else?
Greek PM: I signed a bailout deal from 'vindictive' euro leaders that I don't believe in
"The hard truth is this one-way street for Greece was imposed on us."
His bitter display came after he accepted help at the eleventh hour from a lengthy eurozone summit, which stopped the country's financial collapse for a third time.
He said creditors displayed a "vindictive" stance over the country's referendum, which saw the elecorate rule out a first bailout deal.
...But he attacked Greece's lenders, saying "they wanted to take revenge".
Poor man.