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Kovarian - dead or alive?

SillyBillyGoatSillyBillyGoat Posts: 22,266
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in Doctor Who #1
I know Amy killed her in the aborted timeline, but was it ever clarified what happened after normality was restored? Is she just alive and assuming The Doctor to be dead?

TWoRS left me ever so slightly confused about varous things. :o

Comments

  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    #2
    There's no "this is definite" answer but you got the gist of it yourself - River made a point of saying that Amy killed someone in an alternate reality to alleviate her mum's guilt - and Amy said "...but I still remember doing it". Since that only really makes sense if River means "You haven't killed her because that reality never happened" - the logical and most likely answer is that Madam K in this reality is not affected by events in the other. Unless something happened off-screen, Madam K is alive and kicking - though where in time she is is unknown.
  • SillyBillyGoatSillyBillyGoat Posts: 22,266
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    #3
    MinkytheDog wrote: »
    There's no "this is definite" answer but you got the gist of it yourself - River made a point of saying that Amy killed someone in an alternate reality to alleviate her mum's guilt - and Amy said "...but I still remember doing it". Since that only really makes sense if River means "You haven't killed her because that reality never happened" - the logical and most likely answer is that Madam K in this reality is not affected by events in the other. Unless something happened off-screen, Madam K is alive and kicking - though where in time she is is unknown.

    Thanks for the reply! :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 24,080
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    #4
    Madame K better be alive. I think its time she really comes out into her own hopefully in series 7! I love her dialogue and her delivery...she is so underused its unbelievable!

    But whenever she is in a scene she delivers. And yes she was killed by Amy in the other timeline but i have a feeling Madame K will be back..and it may foreshadow forthcoming events :) EEEEK!
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    #5
    SillyBillyGoat wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply! :)

    You're welcome.

    If it helps, the resident "ex-spurts" can't agree on everything that happened in this series so don't worry if some of it seems confused or confusing - either by design or by accident, the series has left a lot of questions - (or openings if you prefer the optimistic approach).
  • TheSilentFezTheSilentFez Posts: 11,103
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    #6
    Methinks she's still alive. Unless the Silence have disposed of her in the proper universe...
  • MediaMattersMediaMatters Posts: 377
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    #7
    There's no "this is definite" answer but you got the gist of it yourself - River made a point of saying that Amy killed someone in an alternate reality to alleviate her mum's guilt - and Amy said "...but I still remember doing it". Since that only really makes sense if River means "You haven't killed her because that reality never happened" - the logical and most likely answer is that Madam K in this reality is not affected by events in the other. Unless something happened off-screen, Madam K is alive and kicking - though where in time she is unknown.

    This got me thinking in the final episode too.
    Would the Doctor have approved/understood what Amy did? Maybe it's a neat way for Amy to want to see the Doctor again, therefore keeping the door open for a return of the Ponds. In the same scene almost, the Silence taunt Captain Williams as they were about to attack on how Rory keeps dying and waiting loyally for Amy to return suggesting that they were about to kill him one last time before Amy promptly arrived to save the day with an impressive shot! :) Perhaps there would have been a finality to Rory's death if the Silence had got there first? Technically, I suppose, Madam K was killed by the Silence; Amy simply used Madam Kovarian's device - the Silence's eye-drive - against her. I can't say I'd blame her after everything she inflicted upon mother and daughter. I'd say it's akin to the Doctor blowing up an entire Cyber fleet out of the sky: using their enemy's own systems against them.

    I had previously thought that the Silence had fallen in 1969, or was that just when the human race had kicked them off Earth? Were the events of the finale prior to 'The Impossible Astronaut' or afterwards, even though it was a defunct timeline. I'll guess and say Before because as time restarted again the trio at the Lakeside would continue back to the diner to meet the younger Doctor who would take them back to 1969. Maybe that Doctor in the diner had just escaped from the Tesselecta Doctor in the burning boat? :confused:

    Can't say I'd want to get on the wrong side of Mrs. Williams though! :eek:
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    #8
    MediaMatters wrote: »
    This got me thinking in the final episode too.
    Would the Doctor have approved/understood what Amy did?

    Officially - he'd be angry.

    Unofficially - the Doctor was the first person to leave the room - with her tied to a chair and Silents about to break the door down - after he'd already seen the eye-drives sparking - with Amy and Rory - and weapons. He's a smarty-pants - he must have known the old trout was going to get a slap.

    I'd be more concerned about him putting Amy in that situation - Madam K may be alive in the true reality but Amy still has to carry that guilt. If he did know - or even suspect - that Amy would give Madam K grief and didn't stop it happening, he used her as a weapon - just as K did with River Song.
  • MediaMattersMediaMatters Posts: 377
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    #9
    MinkytheDog wrote: »
    Officially - he'd be angry.

    Unofficially - the Doctor was the first person to leave the room - with her tied to a chair and Silents about to break the door down - after he'd already seen the eye-drives sparking - with Amy and Rory - and weapons. He's a smarty-pants - he must have known the old trout was going to get a slap.

    I'd be more concerned about him putting Amy in that situation - Madam K may be alive in the true reality but Amy still has to carry that guilt. If he did know - or even suspect - that Amy would give Madam K grief and didn't stop it happening, he used her as a weapon - just as K did with River Song.

    Thanks for that clarity! :)
    It reminds me of how the Doctor responds when he sees his friends turned into soldiers after their time with him. Even apparently Rose Tyler! He does - inadvertently perhaps - turn them into a weapon to help defend Earth (except Donna obviously!). Though, good soldiers to fight the good fight. I don't mean like Sontarans who thrive on killing their enemies! ;)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 90
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    #10
    I'm wondering if the shoe is on the other foot too, so to speak.

    I mean if Amy remembers 'killing' Kovarian in the aborted timeline, does Kovarian remember Amy killing her also?

    If so, that could make for a hell of a reappearance scene where Kovarian is hellbent on revenge or something like that.
    Also, if the Doctor is there, that could be when he finds out about Amy's actions and guilt, even if he has suspicions already.
  • TheMagic8ballTheMagic8ball Posts: 3,432
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    #11
    You mark my words, that's not the last you'll see of Madame Kovarian....because I think this show is repeated. :confused:
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    #12
    williambarkley wrote: »
    I'm wondering if the shoe is on the other foot too, so to speak.

    I mean if Amy remembers 'killing' Kovarian in the aborted timeline, does Kovarian remember Amy killing her also?

    If so, that could make for a hell of a reappearance scene where Kovarian is hellbent on revenge or something like that.
    Also, if the Doctor is there, that could be when he finds out about Amy's actions and guilt, even if he has suspicions already.

    Unlikely - the Doctor has said that they only remember these alternate realities as a side-effect of travelling in the Tardis and - in Amy's case in particular - because she spent so much time in proximity to a crack in her parents' house.

    You never know though - little is known about Madam K - she may not even be human.
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    #13
    Josh Pinder wrote: »
    Madame K better be alive. I think its time she really comes out into her own hopefully in series 7! I love her dialogue and her delivery...she is so underused its unbelievable!
    TheSilentFez wrote: »
    Methinks she's still alive. Unless the Silence have disposed of her in the proper universe...

    Of course she is, we ALL know she's the Rani!
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,601
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    #14
    MediaMatters wrote: »
    Maybe that Doctor in the diner had just escaped from the Tesselecta Doctor in the burning boat? :confused:
    That would mean the end of the show if that was the case.

    If the Doctor at the Diner was the one in the Teselecta then the whole of Series 6 is an endless loop for the Doctor and we won't be seeing anymore of his adventures.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,244
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    #15
    Corwin wrote: »
    That would mean the end of the show if that was the case.

    If the Doctor at the Diner was the one in the Teselecta then the whole of Series 6 is an endless loop for the Doctor and we won't be seeing anymore of his adventures.

    Well! We could see the missing two-hundred years: Laurel & Hardy, great escapes and Jim the Fish... that's quite a lot of Doctor Who to sink yer teeth into.

    But yes, good point. q:
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