So what? A single market is all about equal access to the various markets that it comprises not standardising the products on sale in those markets.
The PTB™ probably would standardise if they could, but this sort of idea probably falls into the same category of switching to driving on the right: it'd be more hassle than it's worth, so it'll likely never happen until and unless some future Government has money to burn. A Single Market doesn't entail a necessity for total harmonisation of everything, especially not when it's impractical. The standards in terms of mains supply are close enough that appliances wired for UK circuits will work in the EU without the need for a transformer, and vice versa - all you need is a converter plug or two-pin adapter. (Or a shaver socket, in some cases.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker45
What exactly are you referring to? We do, of course, manufacture electrical goods to EU Directives and standards which are the same for the whole of the EU.
Apologies, in general the least said about EU directives the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker45
What exactly are you referring to? We do, of course, manufacture electrical goods to EU Directives and standards which are the same for the whole of the EU.
In which Parker45 was entirely correct. We do manufacture electrical goods to EU Directives and standards which are the same for the whole of the EU. Not all features of electrical goods are necessarily covered by such standards, and sometimes there are cases that allow for dual standards. That doesn't negate Parker45's point.
The companies represented by the CBI employ too many people in this country for their position to be simply dismissed out of hand. A country that stops listening to business is a country that is Hell-bent on driving itself into penury.
The hilarious thing is if the CBI had come out and said we should scrap all employment law you know for a fact the same posters would be telling us they were 100% right and we should do exactly what they say.
This is why the UK will never leave the EU. When it starts to hit home to the electorate that their employer and their job depends on EU membership people will always vote with the person who pays their mortgage.
The hilarious thing is if the CBI had come out and said we should scrap all employment law you know for a fact the same posters would be telling us they were 100% right and we should do exactly what they say.
This is why the UK will never leave the EU. When it starts to hit home to the electorate that their employer and their job depends on EU membership people will always vote with the person who pays their mortgage.
Maybe we will, maybe we won't. The CBI is influential but it doesn't run the UK; if a future Government or electorate were to decide that it's in the UK's interests to leave the EU despite the wishes of the CBI, then it would do so. I have to confess though that I agree with your first paragraph: I dare say there are a fair few who normally think the Sun shines out of the CBI's backside who have changed their tune recently. Like you, I find that amusing.
The companies represented by the CBI employ too many people in this country for their position to be simply dismissed out of hand. A country that stops listening to business is a country that is Hell-bent on driving itself into penury.
Should we have listened to the CBI when they said it was essential for Britain's economic success that we join the Euro?
Should we have listened to the CBI when they said it was essential for Britain's economic success that we join the Euro?
I think this is one of those classic cases where you'd have done better to read on through the thread than to hit the 'Reply' button in haste, as I've answered that question for you. Yes, we should have listened - and indeed did listen - to the CBI. We (well, some of us) did not dismiss the pro-euro position out of hand; we took their view under advisement. But the consensus was nevertheless against euro membership: as I said, the CBI is influential but does not run the UK. On that issue, I for one was content to go with wherever the consensus lay. Had the consensus been different I'd have been content with that too. It wasn't an issue I had especially strong feelings about.
I think this is one of those classic cases where you'd have done better to read on through the thread than to hit the 'Reply' button in haste, as I've answered that question for you.
Well I'm more interested in your comment that if we dont listen to the CBI we will end up in penury - how did that work out in the case of the Euro?
Should we have listened to the CBI when they said it was essential for Britain's economic success that we join the Euro?
No more so than we should listen to these groups when they advocate cutting employment "red tape" i.e. pesky employee rights that prevent employers abusing them.
Well I'm more interested in your comment that if we dont listen to the CBI we will end up in penury - how did that work out in the case of the Euro?
We ended up in penury.
Though not because of the Euro, not directly anyway, more because we had a Government that bought into the whole "light touch regulation" mantra often trotted out by the CBI and its ilk.
Though it's an interesting point. Some people see the EU as imposing socialist values on the UK. Some people like the EU for that reason, amongst others. Others hate it for that reason, amongst others. Some other people see the EU as imposing capitalist values on the UK. Some people like the EU for that reason, amongst others. Others hate it for that reason, amongst others. The truth is probably none of the above...
The truth is, its a talking shop that has cost a lot of money, wasted a great deal of it and cannot account for the whereabouts of quite a bit of it, and that everything it has achieved could easily have been agreed amongst or negotiated by its independent country constituent members.
Also that it is actually yet another gravy train to employ and enrich politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers, and simply introduces another layer of over-government to an already severely over-governed nation.
And that Britain has paid in a lot more than it has ever got out. And that all the time we continue as members, that will continue to be the case.
The worry for many is that non EU firms located in the UK to take advantage of access to the EU marketplace (e.g Nissan in Sunderland) would up sticks to avoid the hassle of having to import into the EU from the UK.
Well I'm more interested in your comment that if we dont listen to the CBI we will end up in penury - how did that work out in the case of the Euro?
Why are you attempting to construct a straw-man argument? What I have said is neither more nor less than I mean. I said: "A country that stops listening to business is a country that is Hell-bent on driving itself into penury." You appear to be desperate to transmogrify that into a supposed claim that if we don't do as the CBI says we'll end up in penury. That's not what I said, and it would be dishonest of you to claim so.
The truth is, its a talking shop that has cost a lot of money, wasted a great deal of it and cannot account for the whereabouts of quite a bit of it, and that everything it has achieved could easily have been agreed amongst or negotiated by its independent country constituent members.
Everything it has achieved was agreed amongst or negotiated by its independent country constituent members And a great deal of the waste and loss is down to those same independent country constituent members. The EU is an international organisation made up of independent country constituent members.
Also that it is actually yet another gravy train to employ and enrich politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers, and simply introduces another layer of over-government to an already severely over-governed nation.
Subjective rhetoric.
And that Britain has paid in a lot more than it has ever got out. And that all the time we continue as members, that will continue to be the case.
Right from the outset, the UK accepted that as a cost of doing business - as do the other wealthier nations in the EU, save perhaps France which does disproportionately well out of CAP.
Just give the public a say and be done with it. No one in their right mind is going to take us out or sign us fully to the EU without public approval so people should stop arguing and just ask the public.
I really wish people would stop quoting other people then editing what they've wrote to meet their own agenda..
The say should be a straight forward "Do you want the UK to be a member of the EU?" and possibly a second question of "Do you want a the UK to have a free trade agreement with the EU?"
This forum alone is constantly filled with EU threads. A week doesn't go past without EU stories in the media. I'm sick of their interfering and I want a vote on our membership. If you don't want a vote then fine, you don't have to vote but it's an absolute shambles that the politicians are trying to remove people's right to choose on such a huge decision.
I really wish people would stop quoting other people then editing what they've wrote to meet their own agenda..
The say should be a straight forward "Do you want the UK to be a member of the EU?" and possibly a second question of "Do you want a the UK to have a free trade agreement with the EU?"
The problem with both questions is that there is no one value of "membership" nor, indeed, "free trade agreement". Suppose for a moment that the CBI gets its way and scares the generally soft-Eurosceptic public into voting Yes to membership. What have they voted for? The status quo, a renegotiation of our relationship whilst remaining a member of all the institutions of which we're presently a member? Some postulated federation? Similarly, does "free trade agreement" mean EEA membership or a series of sui generis bilateral agreements? What if the EU federalists' proposal of some sort of "associate membership" as opposed to any of the above options would be more beneficial?
In short, there's little about any of this that's straightforward.
This forum alone is constantly filled with EU threads. A week doesn't go past without EU stories in the media. I'm sick of their interfering and I want a vote on our membership.
This forum and the media are filled with stories about the EU because it suits the interests of certain antagonists who are perennial authors of anti-EU stories and threads to keep it in the media. So I wonder what is it that's made you sick and tired, really. Do you think that you've been influenced, perhaps manipulated?
If you don't want a vote then fine, you don't have to vote but it's an absolute shambles that the politicians are trying to remove people's right to choose on such a huge decision.
People don't, when it comes down to it, actually have a right to choose on EU membership, any more than they have a right to choose on abortion, the death penalty, or our membership of the UN, NATO, the G20 or the WTO. We live in a Parliamentary democracy; Parliament can make and rewrite the rules as it sees fit. It decides whether it deems it suitable to give people a say. Of course, if people feel strongly enough about it they can stuff Parliament with representatives who will produce the vote on the requisite legislation to allow them a say in some sort of referendum - flawed binary choice that it may be - but there's no right to such. So nothing's being "removed" from you; you never had it in the first place.
Well I'm more interested in your comment that if we dont listen to the CBI we will end up in penury - how did that work out in the case of the Euro?
Considering we're going through one of the deepest financial crisis we've ever had, I can't see that being out of the euro has exactly done us a lot of good. Fact is, we don't know if we would at present have been better off or worse off if we had joined the euro.
Considering we're going through one of the deepest financial crisis we've ever had, I can't see that being out of the euro has exactly done us a lot of good. Fact is, we don't know if we would at present have been better off or worse off if we had joined the euro.
Being outside the eurozone has given the UK government a choice. Either to borrow money from the Germans (like the Greeks) or print new money (which is what we are doing).
Comments
The PTB™ probably would standardise if they could, but this sort of idea probably falls into the same category of switching to driving on the right: it'd be more hassle than it's worth, so it'll likely never happen until and unless some future Government has money to burn. A Single Market doesn't entail a necessity for total harmonisation of everything, especially not when it's impractical. The standards in terms of mains supply are close enough that appliances wired for UK circuits will work in the EU without the need for a transformer, and vice versa - all you need is a converter plug or two-pin adapter. (Or a shaver socket, in some cases.)
seeing as we import more from the eu than we export they need us more than we need them
Apologies, in general the least said about EU directives the better.
In which Parker45 was entirely correct. We do manufacture electrical goods to EU Directives and standards which are the same for the whole of the EU. Not all features of electrical goods are necessarily covered by such standards, and sometimes there are cases that allow for dual standards. That doesn't negate Parker45's point.
The hilarious thing is if the CBI had come out and said we should scrap all employment law you know for a fact the same posters would be telling us they were 100% right and we should do exactly what they say.
This is why the UK will never leave the EU. When it starts to hit home to the electorate that their employer and their job depends on EU membership people will always vote with the person who pays their mortgage.
Maybe we will, maybe we won't. The CBI is influential but it doesn't run the UK; if a future Government or electorate were to decide that it's in the UK's interests to leave the EU despite the wishes of the CBI, then it would do so. I have to confess though that I agree with your first paragraph: I dare say there are a fair few who normally think the Sun shines out of the CBI's backside who have changed their tune recently. Like you, I find that amusing.
Should we have listened to the CBI when they said it was essential for Britain's economic success that we join the Euro?
I think this is one of those classic cases where you'd have done better to read on through the thread than to hit the 'Reply' button in haste, as I've answered that question for you. Yes, we should have listened - and indeed did listen - to the CBI. We (well, some of us) did not dismiss the pro-euro position out of hand; we took their view under advisement. But the consensus was nevertheless against euro membership: as I said, the CBI is influential but does not run the UK. On that issue, I for one was content to go with wherever the consensus lay. Had the consensus been different I'd have been content with that too. It wasn't an issue I had especially strong feelings about.
Well I'm more interested in your comment that if we dont listen to the CBI we will end up in penury - how did that work out in the case of the Euro?
No more so than we should listen to these groups when they advocate cutting employment "red tape" i.e. pesky employee rights that prevent employers abusing them.
We ended up in penury.
Though not because of the Euro, not directly anyway, more because we had a Government that bought into the whole "light touch regulation" mantra often trotted out by the CBI and its ilk.
The truth is, its a talking shop that has cost a lot of money, wasted a great deal of it and cannot account for the whereabouts of quite a bit of it, and that everything it has achieved could easily have been agreed amongst or negotiated by its independent country constituent members.
Also that it is actually yet another gravy train to employ and enrich politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers, and simply introduces another layer of over-government to an already severely over-governed nation.
And that Britain has paid in a lot more than it has ever got out. And that all the time we continue as members, that will continue to be the case.
Why are you attempting to construct a straw-man argument? What I have said is neither more nor less than I mean. I said: "A country that stops listening to business is a country that is Hell-bent on driving itself into penury." You appear to be desperate to transmogrify that into a supposed claim that if we don't do as the CBI says we'll end up in penury. That's not what I said, and it would be dishonest of you to claim so.
Everything it has achieved was agreed amongst or negotiated by its independent country constituent members And a great deal of the waste and loss is down to those same independent country constituent members. The EU is an international organisation made up of independent country constituent members.
Subjective rhetoric.
Right from the outset, the UK accepted that as a cost of doing business - as do the other wealthier nations in the EU, save perhaps France which does disproportionately well out of CAP.
So why bother leaving the EU ? If we wanted to export to the EU, we will still have to follow EU regs.
Everyone else outside the EU does not set the EU regs.
What exactly should the 'say' be ?
Think you are right.
I really wish people would stop quoting other people then editing what they've wrote to meet their own agenda..
The say should be a straight forward "Do you want the UK to be a member of the EU?" and possibly a second question of "Do you want a the UK to have a free trade agreement with the EU?"
This forum alone is constantly filled with EU threads. A week doesn't go past without EU stories in the media. I'm sick of their interfering and I want a vote on our membership. If you don't want a vote then fine, you don't have to vote but it's an absolute shambles that the politicians are trying to remove people's right to choose on such a huge decision.
The problem with both questions is that there is no one value of "membership" nor, indeed, "free trade agreement". Suppose for a moment that the CBI gets its way and scares the generally soft-Eurosceptic public into voting Yes to membership. What have they voted for? The status quo, a renegotiation of our relationship whilst remaining a member of all the institutions of which we're presently a member? Some postulated federation? Similarly, does "free trade agreement" mean EEA membership or a series of sui generis bilateral agreements? What if the EU federalists' proposal of some sort of "associate membership" as opposed to any of the above options would be more beneficial?
In short, there's little about any of this that's straightforward.
This forum and the media are filled with stories about the EU because it suits the interests of certain antagonists who are perennial authors of anti-EU stories and threads to keep it in the media. So I wonder what is it that's made you sick and tired, really. Do you think that you've been influenced, perhaps manipulated?
People don't, when it comes down to it, actually have a right to choose on EU membership, any more than they have a right to choose on abortion, the death penalty, or our membership of the UN, NATO, the G20 or the WTO. We live in a Parliamentary democracy; Parliament can make and rewrite the rules as it sees fit. It decides whether it deems it suitable to give people a say. Of course, if people feel strongly enough about it they can stuff Parliament with representatives who will produce the vote on the requisite legislation to allow them a say in some sort of referendum - flawed binary choice that it may be - but there's no right to such. So nothing's being "removed" from you; you never had it in the first place.
You may want a vote on UK membership of the EU.
Governing politicians do not. Because they run the risk of not getting the result which they want.
The answer to that is simple enough: replace the governing politicians.
Considering we're going through one of the deepest financial crisis we've ever had, I can't see that being out of the euro has exactly done us a lot of good. Fact is, we don't know if we would at present have been better off or worse off if we had joined the euro.
replace governing politicians with more governing politicians ?
Being outside the eurozone has given the UK government a choice. Either to borrow money from the Germans (like the Greeks) or print new money (which is what we are doing).