I disagree it was a protest I think people have had enough of the EU and immigration and think they will vote UKIP from now on. What are people going to say when UKIP win the EU elections that is not mid term, its not a by election its a proper election to be represented internationally at the EU, the excuses will run out when UKIP win
It still won't mean jack. Until they have several MPs sitting in Westminster they have no influence on anything.
2015 is the test of whether UKIP have arrived or not, nothing inbetween.
Anyway I'm all for a referendum. As soon as people release we will lose the European Court of Human Rights, the majority will not back leaving.
No they want to stay but want better deals for the UK. They don't want out because they know its of more benefit to stay.
Just like Cameron. Cameron doesn't want to leave as he knows it will be a disaster to do so. He is only playing this game because he is scared of his backbenchers replacing him if he doesn't.
All this is for himself and his own party politics. Not for the UK. Don't kid yourself otherwise.
At least Miliband is offering a different view. Not everyone wants to leave. There has to be a representation to stay from one party and it looks like Labour will be it.
What a load of nonsense, has Cameron ever said other then he wants to stay in Europe with reforms.
What a load of nonsense, has Cameron ever said other then he wants to stay in Europe with reforms.
How exactly is it nonsense?? Cameron is on record saying he doesn't want to leave Europe. He wants a better deal for the UK which is what I said. I said his backbenchers are not giving him the time to get such a deal.
It still won't mean jack. Until they have several MPs sitting in Westminster they have no influence on anything.
2015 is the test of whether UKIP have arrived or not, nothing inbetween.
Anyway I'm all for a referendum. As soon as people release we will lose the European Court of Human Rights, the majority will not back leaving.
wrong you can have influence without MP's did you see the Queen's speech it could have been written by UKIP, the lib dems have even dropped their immigrants amnesty. You can be a member of the ECHR without being a member of the EU btw
How exactly is it nonsense?? Cameron is on record saying he doesn't want to leave Europe. He wants a better deal for the UK which is what I said. I said his backbenchers are not giving him the time to get such a deal.
Did you even read my posts in this thread?
I suggest you read your post again, you said his motives were purely party political and not for the country, when he has always made his position clear.
How can he stop the debate Wednesday when the speaker has agreed to it and where has he altered his opinion?
wrong you can have influence without MP's did you see the Queen's speech it could have been written by UKIP, the lib dems have even dropped their immigrants amnesty. You can be a member of the ECHR without being a member of the EU btw
I'm sorry but what???
UKIP are not influencing government policy in anyway. Nothing in the Queen's speech was because of UKIPs appeal.
I suggest you read your post again, you said his motives were purely party political and not for the country, when he has always made his position clear.
Go can he stop the debate Wednesday when the speaker has agreed to it and where has he altered his opinion?
I said quite clearly in this thread that Cameron is only allowing this debate because he is scarred of his backbenchers. Which is true. Dress it up how you like.
I also said Cameron will get a good deal for the UK if only these silly backbenchers give him the time. He already has Merkel in his pocket. Hence why she is inviting him to her country estates for weekends.
Cameron doesn't want to leave Europe. He has said as much several times. He just wants a better deal for the UK.
UKIP are not influencing government policy in anyway. Nothing in the Queen's speech was because of UKIPs appeal.
get real, why do you think the tories and labour have suddenly started forming anti-immigration policy, lib dems have dropped their amnesty policy and Cameron even offered a referendum in 2017, that is all because of UKIP because they are offering an alterantive
I said quite clearly in this thread that Cameron is only allowing this debate because he is scarred of his backbenchers. Which is true. Dress it up how you like.
I also said Cameron will get a good deal for the UK if only these silly backbenchers give him the time. He already has Merkel in his pocket. Hence why she is inviting him to her country estates for weekends.
It's not for Cameron to allow, it's the Speaker's decision.
get real, why do you think the tories and labour have suddenly started forming anti-immigration policy, lib dems have dropped their amnesty policy and Cameron even offered a referendum in 2017, that is all because of UKIP because they are offering an alterantive
I think you are deluding yourself to the power of UKIP. The immigration debate was happening before the local elections got the result they did and the Queen's speech was finished long before that as well.
get real, why do you think the tories and labour have suddenly started forming anti-immigration policy, lib dems have dropped their amnesty policy and Cameron even offered a referendum in 2017, that is all because of UKIP because they are offering an alterantive
The Coalition have been cutting back on immigration since they came into office.
I think you are deluding yourself to the power of UKIP. The immigration debate was happening before the local elections got the result they did and the Queen's speech was finished long before that as well.
Its not like the Speaker can decline the debate though is it?
But you said it was Cameron that was allowing the debate
But you said it was Cameron that was allowing the debate
Which he is. He has reportedly given his MPs the green light to back it.
That is for the simple fact he knows he must keep the 1922 committee happy. Not because he wants it but because he knows if he doesn't they will have him.
Which he is. He has reportedly given his MPs the green light to back it.
That is for the simple fact he knows he must keep the 1922 committee happy. Not because he wants it but because he knows if he doesn't they will have him.
it is very easy to tell when he announced the 2017 referendum journalists from a variety of papers/news asked him repeatedly if he could not get reforms would he support an out vote and he remained silent
As soon as the next big crisis happens. That's when it will start to unravel. Bailing out Greece was the final straw for Germany. They cannot do it again.
Spain will create problems again very soon.
The fear is that the political will to hold the Eurozone/EU together is so great that they will drag it out for years until the last German cent has been spent and it collapses in ruins. This is the culmination of a 60 years and counting dream.
That it will unravel shortly is a very optimistic view when you consider the response to all of the crises to date. Any subsequent problems will be used as an excuse for more, not less, integration.
See this is the sort of scaremongering that is creating fear among those who aren't able to see the bigger picture.
All this UKIP are now a real force. They did well in local elections. They haven't managed to have any success at a general election level and there is no indication that they will. For a start they now have to prove themselves as being good at the day to day running of local councils that they are in control of. If they can't do this then they won't have any MP sitting in westminister. They may surprise and prove to be capable but something tells me they won't. The policies are so far right. That won't work long term in a Country like the UK.
So any idea UKIP and the Tories will form a coalition are so deluded I can't even imagine why people are falling for it.
Also the Daily Mail running a negative article on Miliband. :eek: :rolleyes: That's like The Mirror running a piece on how much of a pussy Cameron is. The day people start to believe that sort of press is the day this country is ****ed.
Anyway Miliband should tell all his MPs to back this notion. Cameron doesn't want it (and most of all knows its not going to happen) so it getting backing would pull the rug firmly from his feet and knock him off focus. That's how you play politics.
UKIP will not win votes purely on immigrants. How stupid do you think people are.
Who in a UKIP government for example would be chancellor of the exchequer??
They haven't proved themselves at council level yet so don't get too carried away with them winning seats in a GE. They have a lot more to prove than just being tough on Europe.
What I don't understand with UKIP naysayers is why, with so much evidence as to their failings, they believe the Lib/Lab/Con are somehow more competent when it comes to Westminster? We've had enough.
If we really get to 2015 and are given a choice between Cameron and Miliband then faced with that cold stark reality I don't understand how even the most forgiving voter isn't going to say "sod this, I'm voting UKIP".
Which he is. He has reportedly given his MPs the green light to back it.
That is for the simple fact he knows he must keep the 1922 committee happy. Not because he wants it but because he knows if he doesn't they will have him.
What good would it do not to encourage the debate?
I am sorry you were giving the impression it was Cameron that had agreed the debate.
The fear is that the political will to hold the Eurozone/EU together is so great that they will drag it out for years until the last German cent has been spent and it collapses in ruins. This is the culmination of a 60 years and counting dream.
That it will unravel shortly is a very optimistic view when you consider the response to all of the crises to date. Any subsequent problems will be used as an excuse for more, not less, integration.
What I don't understand with UKIP naysayers is why, with so much evidence as to their failings, they believe the Lib/Lab/Con are somehow more competent when it comes to Westminster? We've had enough.
If we really get to 2015 and are given a choice between Cameron and Miliband then faced with that cold stark reality I don't understand how even the most forgiving voter isn't going to say "sod this, I'm voting UKIP".
What evidence though?? a protest vote at mid term because the Lib Dem's have become Tory and no one wanted to give them a thumbs up.
If UKIP win seats at the general election in 2015 I will be happy to say I was wrong but where is the evidence to suggest they will??
What exactly are their policies on the economy? on the NHS, On schools, defence etc. Can they be trusted with this? sometimes and usually its better the devil you know and that is why come the election UKIP will not win seats.
All we hear about is Europe. It will take more than Europe to win an election and that is what UKIP supporters are failing to understand.
They'll have a full national manifesto in Autumn 2014 after the European Elections, at that point we will see if they can be genuinely described as a party offering positive policy alternatives for an independent UK free of the shackles of Europe.
I think that what they've done for now is shattered the illusion of competence emanating from the "big three", ordinary people are getting involved in politics again from the grassroots up and that is no bad thing after years of total apathy.
April 2015? Within days of seeing a negative opinion poll rating on the subject would be more in keeping with captain bandwagon (his new superhero name).
I'll give it till the end of the month before he tunes into opportunistic mode, dons his red cape and takes his next giant leap.
As someone who believes we should be firmly in the EU anyway I applaud Ed Miliband,s stance at this moment in time.
I do however feel that Labour are likely to list plans for a referendum on the EU, perhaps not as to a binding in/out one however.
David Cameron generally makes a mess of things and here is another, he is setting out to create uncertainty for the next 4 years at least as to Europe.
He also has given only a vague outline of the circumstances for a referendum.
What for instance,if he got only a very small overall majority in 2015,would he the still hold a referendum or have to admit that a referendum bill would not get through again as to the commons.With some of his party against it or abstaining and the rest of parliament against him.
Why wait though also for 2 years before even starting new negotiations anyway, I would doubt many PMs would not encourage him to do that now in the 2 years in the run up to the 2015 election, then he could have maybe something more substantaial to offer at the next election rather than make it a condition that he must get an overall majority in 2 years time before he will even begin to re-negotiate with the EU.
That sounds very suspicious to voters I would think.
This PM doesn't just ask for a signed blank cheque,he asks for a whole book of them.
I feel this move as to Europe will backfire on David Cameron,he is not to be trusted and I still have his words, there will be no full reform of the NHS under him this parliament ringing in my ears.
He wasn't being genuine then and I don't think he is now as to Europe either.
I would trust Ed Miliband and Labour far more as to what they say as to Europe than David Cameron anyday.
Both main parties have gone back on ideas to hold any kind of referendum as to Europe, There were never any mention of referendums being held when the Conservatives were signing treaties when in Govt or indeed even when they actually took us into the Common Market in the early 70s.
However, only Labour have in fact held a referendum as to Europe after some negotiation of a new deal with Europe in 1975 which was an in/out referendum.
So on balance Labour do have the better track record on that one in my view anyway.
They also delivered that referndum too when they really had no effective working majority in parliament either, having got only a bare 3 seat overall majority in October 1974.
Until now and UKIP's rise in elections and polls, the Conservatives have been rather shy to ever ask the voters for a decision on Europe.
I also think, those who want to come out of Europe will be stronger willed and would definitiely vote in a referendum.
I think however that those who have a better view of Europe would be less likely to make the effort to go out and vote in a referendum which could mean we sleepwalk out of the EU,which frankly I think would be massively damaging to the UK in the long term.
Comments
It still won't mean jack. Until they have several MPs sitting in Westminster they have no influence on anything.
2015 is the test of whether UKIP have arrived or not, nothing inbetween.
Anyway I'm all for a referendum. As soon as people release we will lose the European Court of Human Rights, the majority will not back leaving.
What a load of nonsense, has Cameron ever said other then he wants to stay in Europe with reforms.
How exactly is it nonsense?? Cameron is on record saying he doesn't want to leave Europe. He wants a better deal for the UK which is what I said. I said his backbenchers are not giving him the time to get such a deal.
Did you even read my posts in this thread?
wrong you can have influence without MP's did you see the Queen's speech it could have been written by UKIP, the lib dems have even dropped their immigrants amnesty. You can be a member of the ECHR without being a member of the EU btw
I suggest you read your post again, you said his motives were purely party political and not for the country, when he has always made his position clear.
How can he stop the debate Wednesday when the speaker has agreed to it and where has he altered his opinion?
I'm sorry but what???
UKIP are not influencing government policy in anyway. Nothing in the Queen's speech was because of UKIPs appeal.
I said quite clearly in this thread that Cameron is only allowing this debate because he is scarred of his backbenchers. Which is true. Dress it up how you like.
I also said Cameron will get a good deal for the UK if only these silly backbenchers give him the time. He already has Merkel in his pocket. Hence why she is inviting him to her country estates for weekends.
Cameron doesn't want to leave Europe. He has said as much several times. He just wants a better deal for the UK.
I agree with you on that:)
get real, why do you think the tories and labour have suddenly started forming anti-immigration policy, lib dems have dropped their amnesty policy and Cameron even offered a referendum in 2017, that is all because of UKIP because they are offering an alterantive
It's not for Cameron to allow, it's the Speaker's decision.
I think you are deluding yourself to the power of UKIP. The immigration debate was happening before the local elections got the result they did and the Queen's speech was finished long before that as well.
Its not like the Speaker can decline the debate though is it?
The Coalition have been cutting back on immigration since they came into office.
But you said it was Cameron that was allowing the debate
Which he is. He has reportedly given his MPs the green light to back it.
That is for the simple fact he knows he must keep the 1922 committee happy. Not because he wants it but because he knows if he doesn't they will have him.
it is very easy to tell when he announced the 2017 referendum journalists from a variety of papers/news asked him repeatedly if he could not get reforms would he support an out vote and he remained silent
The fear is that the political will to hold the Eurozone/EU together is so great that they will drag it out for years until the last German cent has been spent and it collapses in ruins. This is the culmination of a 60 years and counting dream.
That it will unravel shortly is a very optimistic view when you consider the response to all of the crises to date. Any subsequent problems will be used as an excuse for more, not less, integration.
What I don't understand with UKIP naysayers is why, with so much evidence as to their failings, they believe the Lib/Lab/Con are somehow more competent when it comes to Westminster? We've had enough.
If we really get to 2015 and are given a choice between Cameron and Miliband then faced with that cold stark reality I don't understand how even the most forgiving voter isn't going to say "sod this, I'm voting UKIP".
What good would it do not to encourage the debate?
I am sorry you were giving the impression it was Cameron that had agreed the debate.
maybe because we are a democracy and the whole point is to debate particularly issues that are as important as the EU
What evidence though?? a protest vote at mid term because the Lib Dem's have become Tory and no one wanted to give them a thumbs up.
If UKIP win seats at the general election in 2015 I will be happy to say I was wrong but where is the evidence to suggest they will??
What exactly are their policies on the economy? on the NHS, On schools, defence etc. Can they be trusted with this? sometimes and usually its better the devil you know and that is why come the election UKIP will not win seats.
All we hear about is Europe. It will take more than Europe to win an election and that is what UKIP supporters are failing to understand.
I think that what they've done for now is shattered the illusion of competence emanating from the "big three", ordinary people are getting involved in politics again from the grassroots up and that is no bad thing after years of total apathy.
April 2015? Within days of seeing a negative opinion poll rating on the subject would be more in keeping with captain bandwagon (his new superhero name).
I'll give it till the end of the month before he tunes into opportunistic mode, dons his red cape and takes his next giant leap.
I do however feel that Labour are likely to list plans for a referendum on the EU, perhaps not as to a binding in/out one however.
David Cameron generally makes a mess of things and here is another, he is setting out to create uncertainty for the next 4 years at least as to Europe.
He also has given only a vague outline of the circumstances for a referendum.
What for instance,if he got only a very small overall majority in 2015,would he the still hold a referendum or have to admit that a referendum bill would not get through again as to the commons.With some of his party against it or abstaining and the rest of parliament against him.
Why wait though also for 2 years before even starting new negotiations anyway, I would doubt many PMs would not encourage him to do that now in the 2 years in the run up to the 2015 election, then he could have maybe something more substantaial to offer at the next election rather than make it a condition that he must get an overall majority in 2 years time before he will even begin to re-negotiate with the EU.
That sounds very suspicious to voters I would think.
This PM doesn't just ask for a signed blank cheque,he asks for a whole book of them.
I feel this move as to Europe will backfire on David Cameron,he is not to be trusted and I still have his words, there will be no full reform of the NHS under him this parliament ringing in my ears.
He wasn't being genuine then and I don't think he is now as to Europe either.
I would trust Ed Miliband and Labour far more as to what they say as to Europe than David Cameron anyday.
dangerous tactic.
to tell the electorate that you know better than them. even if you are right.
However, only Labour have in fact held a referendum as to Europe after some negotiation of a new deal with Europe in 1975 which was an in/out referendum.
So on balance Labour do have the better track record on that one in my view anyway.
They also delivered that referndum too when they really had no effective working majority in parliament either, having got only a bare 3 seat overall majority in October 1974.
Until now and UKIP's rise in elections and polls, the Conservatives have been rather shy to ever ask the voters for a decision on Europe.
I also think, those who want to come out of Europe will be stronger willed and would definitiely vote in a referendum.
I think however that those who have a better view of Europe would be less likely to make the effort to go out and vote in a referendum which could mean we sleepwalk out of the EU,which frankly I think would be massively damaging to the UK in the long term.