I think it must have been the way you wrote the post as several of us have misunderstood what you were trying to say, although even when I have had to intervene I have never felt it necessary to launch a dog in the air - that does sound excessive.
I never intentionally launched it in the air.
The dog was in the middle of a jump onto mine at the time, I think that's why he went so high.
He wasn't hurt and it wasn't a football type kick.
His owner is giving us a wide berth now though.
Not as irresponsible as those who allow their dogs to turn on lead dogs into the fearful messes we have to deal with, if dogs didn't rush up to other dogs we would not be causing terror in them. Elsie was mobbed by off lead dogs on her first walk at 15 weeks and has been nervous ever since. Why not give others a bit of space to keep their dogs under control, why not respect other people we have to share spaces and what you are doing is causing the problem in many of these dogs that learn to attack because they are scared of yours.
I think the point was that there are places where there are likely to be dogs running off the lead and if you've got a dog that's highly-strung, nervous or aggressive it's kind of silly to take your dog to such places, un-muzzled, and expect every other dog to avoid yours.
I'm not going to keep my dogs on a lead as I walk through a forest just in case they stumble across some anti-social dog who's being walked on a lead.
Don't get me wrong, if somebody tells me that their dog doesn't like other dogs I'll call mine away but you've got to apply a bit of personal responsibility as well.
If you're walking a dog in a place where it's likely there will be other dogs off the lead you should consider that and if your own dog is likely to attack another dog while it's on the lead then you should really consider muzzling it.
Well I must be in the land of well behaved dogs and owners! I live in a rural spot and always exercise my dog off lead. She couldn't possibly get enough exercise if I kept her on a lead. If I encounter a stranger it's likely to be a walker. We each put our dogs on the lead when we see each other. If our paths cross there is usually a conversation about how our dog is with other dogs. We let them say hello if it's OK and on occasion have even let them off to have a romp around with each other.
Mine is a bit frail and I would kick another dog in a heartbeat to rescue her from an attack. In fact there used to be a huge cat locally - nicknamed psycho cat on account of it leaping onto the backs of passing dogs and even attacking people. I was one of the dog owners who took to carrying a big stick......
Ahh sorry I misunderstood. What breed have you got?
With mine I say I will let him off the lead to defend his self, they are soon running across the field to grab their dog. But I have a staff that's bigger then the average staffie and goes nuts when he is on his lead, purely due to his size people assume he is aggressive until he gives the sad face wagging his tail.
I have a chow, he has never shown any aggression to other dogs even when being attacked.
He is quite capable of hurting or killing these dogs that attack him, I could just let him off the lead and eventually he will, but I don't want him to be dog aggressive.
It's always little terrier types that attack him and they really wouldn't last long if he turned on them.
Strangely enough all the staffies we have met have been fine with him, even ones that are usually dog aggressive.
I think the point was that there are places where there are likely to be dogs running off the lead and if you've got a dog that's highly-strung, nervous or aggressive it's kind of silly to take your dog to such places, un-muzzled, and expect every other dog to avoid yours.
I'm not going to keep my dogs on a lead as I walk through a forest just in case they stumble across some anti-social dog who's being walked on a lead.
Don't get me wrong, if somebody tells me that their dog doesn't like other dogs I'll call mine away but you've got to apply a bit of personal responsibility as well.
If you're walking a dog in a place where it's likely there will be other dogs off the lead you should consider that and if your own dog is likely to attack another dog while it's on the lead then you should really consider muzzling it.
Thank you. I thought I was alone with this logic!
Edited to add: If you've have a dog (from being a pup) that doesn't socialise well, and is aggressive to other dogs then you really have failed as an owner. Of course, this doesn't apply for rescue/attacked dogs. Not aimed at you Molliepops...just in general.
Well I must be in the land of well behaved dogs and owners.....
Must say, I kinda feel like that too.
I'm fortunate enough to live right between a river and a large forest so the only time my dogs are on a lead is when we're walking to one of those places and, after that, they're usually off the lead all the time and I've probably only had 2 or 3 dubious incidents in the last decade or so.
I think the point was that there are places where there are likely to be dogs running off the lead and if you've got a dog that's highly-strung, nervous or aggressive it's kind of silly to take your dog to such places, un-muzzled, and expect every other dog to avoid yours.
I'm not going to keep my dogs on a lead as I walk through a forest just in case they stumble across some anti-social dog who's being walked on a lead.
Don't get me wrong, if somebody tells me that their dog doesn't like other dogs I'll call mine away but you've got to apply a bit of personal responsibility as well.
If you're walking a dog in a place where it's likely there will be other dogs off the lead you should consider that and if your own dog is likely to attack another dog while it's on the lead then you should really consider muzzling it.
I don't take mine to places for their first walk where they should expect off lead dogs, I have problems end of my road where we have a small green surrounded by roads no more than a hundred feet one way and a couple of hundred feet the other, first walk never been on a lead before. I have problems round our local lake where we have elderly people and children going to their respective schools and café where I would expect all dogs to be on leads for everyone's safety. I am not in a forest or traditional off lead area. I probably will never now get to one of those areas because of irresponsible off lead dog owners.
And mine won't attack other dogs that is part of the problem they are scared I can pick 5lb Betty up but Elsie is another matter and now she is scared I am honestly struggling to know what to do. She was a confident happy pup until she was walked and mobbed.
I think the point was that there are places where there are likely to be dogs running off the lead and if you've got a dog that's highly-strung, nervous or aggressive it's kind of silly to take your dog to such places, un-muzzled, and expect every other dog to avoid yours.
I'm not going to keep my dogs on a lead as I walk through a forest just in case they stumble across some anti-social dog who's being walked on a lead.
Don't get me wrong, if somebody tells me that their dog doesn't like other dogs I'll call mine away but you've got to apply a bit of personal responsibility as well.
If you're walking a dog in a place where it's likely there will be other dogs off the lead you should consider that and if your own dog is likely to attack another dog while it's on the lead then you should really consider muzzling it.
I agree there is an element of choosing the walk based on your dog's temperament. As you say, I wouldn't walk mine in the woods because they (well, Hansel) is dog aggressive. Over the fields at quiet times when I have a clear view, yes. I can spot another dog and pop them back on lead and move over to the side or choose a different path in order to keep some distance. Over the park when busy or through the woods even on lead all the while would be stupid as it would set Hansel back if we were to run into an unruly off lead dog - or even a well manner dog sometimes!
That said, I expect any dog being walked by the road to be under super close control - preferably on lead. I'll cross the road to avoid another dog - I don't expect that dog to come trotting over the road to mither mine when I have done the responsible thing and put 10ft of tarmac between us:o
I agree there is an element of choosing the walk based on your dog's temperament. As you say, I wouldn't walk mine in the woods because they (well, Hansel) is dog aggressive. Over the fields at quiet times when I have a clear view, yes. I can spot another dog and pop them back on lead and move over to the side or choose a different path in order to keep some distance. Over the park when busy or through the woods even on lead all the while would be stupid as it would set Hansel back if we were to run into an unruly off lead dog - or even a well manner dog sometimes!
That said, I expect any dog being walked by the road to be under super close control - preferably on lead. I'll cross the road to avoid another dog - I don't expect that dog to come trotting over the road to mither mine when I have done the responsible thing and put 10ft of tarmac between us:o
I have had dog aggressive dogs before Duncan was the worst we couldn't walk anywhere we might meet off lead dogs but equally we were not welcome where dogs were on lead because his barking and snapping was not easy to control. You end up with even worse socialised dog because you get to a point where you are scared to go anywhere.
Well personally when I took my dog to busy places, it was for the soul reason of socialisation and she was not the neurotic mess she is now then, we went to quiet parks at quiet times and asked other dog walkers politely if our dogs could interact briefly.
The people who cause the problems are the ones who think that 'off lead' means running riot with no recall at all. And the ones who think socialisation is just letting you pup loose in a busy park and letting other dogs and their owners deal with it.
Dogs' body language is complex and most dogs are only half fluent IME.
I never said I kick dogs for no reason or just to get it away from me.
I never kick a dog until its teeth have made contact with mine.
And I wouldn't kick a chihuahua
That is fair enough:). You asked if kicking a dog was acceptable,I took it to mean is kicking one acceptable in general, which is obviously not, but if you were meaning in self defence then yes it is, same as anything done in self defence is.
I have had dog aggressive dogs before Duncan was the worst we couldn't walk anywhere we might meet off lead dogs but equally we were not welcome where dogs were on lead because his barking and snapping was not easy to control. You end up with even worse socialised dog because you get to a point where you are scared to go anywhere.
We seem to reach a point where he's OK to pass by another dog fairly close - he looks to me & might make a little whine but leaves the other dog. I reassure and reward the calm behaviour. Buffy gets even better - she is very food orientated so very easy to alter associations so she may even wag at the dog and on her own will even play with some dogs.
And then we have a set back.:( Every time. An off lead dog over the park when we thought it was safe to go there, a bouncy dog on the beach. So back to square one and we stick to the pavement as all dogs will be one lead won't they? Apparently not Han kicks off & Buffy backs him up and they are both then hyper vigilante and reactive.
They are only little dogs so anything bigger than a Cocker is a giant. A huge unruly Lab is like King Kong to us. So it doesn't take a lot to scare them and a walk becomes a chore instead of a pleasure for all of us
We seem to reach a point where he's OK to pass by another dog fairly close - he looks to me & might make a little whine but leaves the other dog. I reassure and reward the calm behaviour. Buffy gets even better - she is very food orientated so very easy to alter associations so she may even wag at the dog and on her own will even play with some dogs.
And then we have a set back.:( Every time. An off lead dog over the park when we thought it was safe to go there, a bouncy dog on the beach. So back to square one and we stick to the pavement as all dogs will be one lead won't they? Apparently not Han kicks off & Buffy backs him up and they are both then hyper vigilante and reactive.
They are only little dogs so anything bigger than a Cocker is a giant. A huge unruly Lab is like King Kong to us. So it doesn't take a lot to scare them and a walk becomes a chore instead of a pleasure for all of us
Everyone to their own .........The worst culprits for violence tend to be the smaller ones ......Rosie has only been attacked once and that was by a Yorkshire terrier when she was a pup ..........
You're out walking in a public area, (field, park etc) your dog is off lead, your dog approaches another dog, (on lead) the on lead dog attacks your off lead dog.
Who is to blame? And would you report the other dog's owner for the attack?
You're out walking in a public area, (field, park etc) your dog is off lead, your dog approaches another dog, (on lead) the on lead dog attacks your off lead dog.
Who is to blame? And would you report the other dog's owner for the attack?
It depends, there have been such incidents and usually 'on lead' counts as under control, ie the owner can pull the dog away.
But... if the dog has a history of dog aggression, it would be argued that the on lead dog should be muzzled.
Personally, I think the former, my dog is under adequate control on a short lead, if you allow your dog to approach and a fight ensues, the loose dog is out of control. JMHO.
You're out walking in a public area, (field, park etc) your dog is off lead, your dog approaches another dog, (on lead) the on lead dog attacks your off lead dog.
Who is to blame? And would you report the other dog's owner for the attack?
There's partial blame on both sides IMO. Ultimately though, if you know your dog has a history of aggression to others then the majority of the blame is passed onto you as your dog should be muzzled.
Yes, I would report the owner...they've been negligent in allowing a dog they know that has behavioural issues to be unmuzzled when it has a possibility of meeting another.
It depends, there have been such incidents and usually 'on lead' counts as under control, ie the owner can pull the dog away.
But... if the dog has a history of dog aggression, it would be argued that the on lead dog should be muzzled.
Personally, I think the former, my dog is under adequate control on a short lead, if you allow your dog to approach and a fight ensues, the loose dog is out of control. JMHO.
I agree, I think that if my dogs are on a short lead and I do my best to keep away from off lead dogs then if that dog gets close enough to mine for a fight to start then it's the off lead dog that is out of control. Two of my 4 aren't reliable around other dogs so are muzzled but why do owners of off lead dogs think it's ok to let them run up to us? Don't they think they are on lead and muzzled for a reason? I do understand that even the best trained dog can be disobedient but its the people who don't even bother to call their dog away from us that really get me. They don't own the places we walk and there's plenty of space so why can't they be reasonable so we can all enjoy our walk? I doubt they'd be happy if I allowed my 4 to run up to their dog and just shouted oh 2 are ok, the other 2 are muzzled so don't worry if they bark and snarl!!!
You're out walking in a public area, (field, park etc) your dog is off lead, your dog approaches another dog, (on lead) the on lead dog attacks your off lead dog.
Who is to blame? And would you report the other dog's owner for the attack?
No I wouldn't, I would consider it my fault for not having sufficient control over my off lead dog to prevent it getting close enough for an on lead dog to attack it (a short lead, not a flexi). As for muzzling, it may be the first time the onlead dog has attacked if not ten yes it should be muzzled but I'd still consider it my fault.
It depends, there have been such incidents and usually 'on lead' counts as under control, ie the owner can pull the dog away.
But... if the dog has a history of dog aggression, it would be argued that the on lead dog should be muzzled.
Interesting point there.
In answer to the question, if my dogs wandered up to a dog that was on a lead and got attacked I'd have to say that the got what they deserved.
As it is, none of my dogs are particularly keen to investigate other dogs without encouragement so it's never been a problem.
What I really wanted to mention, though, was that every time (and I genuinely mean every time, which is still only a handful of times in over 10 years) that I've been in that situation it's usually been a case of us encountering another dog while we're out walking, the owner saying it's okay for the dogs to "say hello" and then the other dog (the one that's on the lead) will suddenly get all snarly and bitey, usually followed by the owner saying something like "Goodness, I don't know what got into him!"
Hmmm....
Funny thing is, of all my dogs, my Sprocker is the cutest, fuzzyest ickle teddy-bear of a dog but if another dog pesters her she turns into a little miniature werewolf for about 2 seconds, and that seems to deter even the biggest aggressor, and then reverts back into a teddy-bear.
I think dogs just have this innate sense for deciding "who's the boss" and that deters the vast majority of potential problems before the owners are even aware of them.
There's partial blame on both sides IMO. Ultimately though, if you know your dog has a history of aggression to others then the majority of the blame is passed onto you as your dog should be muzzled.
Yes, I would report the owner...they've been negligent in allowing a dog they know that has behavioural issues to be unmuzzled when it has a possibility of meeting another.
I think even in law it's a bit of contentious issue.
The owner of the off lead dog should be able to recall it away from an on lead dog.
The owner of the on lead dog needs to take all appropriate steps to prevent an attack.
The thing is.... you have to define 'attack'.... if it was a real attack IMHO, then the off lead dog would leg it, if it sticks around to scrap then it just two dogs having a disagreement.
Let's not forget that dogs are on lead for lots of reasons. My friends dog has had spinal surgery and is on lead, she could be killed by an off lead dog bouncing on her.
Simple answer, don't allow your dogs to approach onlead dogs, if you cannot recall them, keep them on onlead too. Just because your dog is 'friendly' doesn't give it free reign to run riot.
TBH, I think post #19 in that thread is complete fantasy, at best dreamed up by somebody who's got a dog that they only ever let run around their own garden and then wonder why it's antisocial.
I guess you have to look at it from all perspectives though.
Whenever this has happened to me it's only been a snarl and a snap, resulting in my own dog/s retreating swiftly away, so it's never been worthy of a second thought.
If, OTOH, I met somebody with a large dog on a lead, was told it was okay for them to "say hello" and the other dog took a chunk out of one of my dogs and the owner was physically incapable of restraining their animal I'd certainly consider reporting the owner because they're obviously unaware of their dogs temperament, unable to control it properly and not taking sufficient precautions, all regardless of whether my dog was on a lead or not.
*EDIT*
While I'm at it, I thought post #14 in that thread was pretty funny too.
"I was letting my toddler run around in a forest when they were confronted by an off the lead dog"
the other dog took a chunk out of one of my dogs .
Did it actually take a chunk out though? Even cause a minor wound?
Or did it just snap to tell you dog to get out of it's face.... it could hardly run away could it.
If the owner could not physically control the dog, that is an separate matter IMO.
Did it actually take a chunk out though? Even cause a minor wound?
Or did it just snap to tell you dog to get out of it's face.... it could hardly run away could it.
If the owner could not physically control the dog, that is an separate matter IMO.
Erm, it was a hypothetical situation so I guess I'd go with "yes".
Point being, I'm sure there would be occasions where a person with a dog on a lead might be responsible for their dog causing harm to another one.
Comments
I never intentionally launched it in the air.
The dog was in the middle of a jump onto mine at the time, I think that's why he went so high.
He wasn't hurt and it wasn't a football type kick.
His owner is giving us a wide berth now though.
I think the point was that there are places where there are likely to be dogs running off the lead and if you've got a dog that's highly-strung, nervous or aggressive it's kind of silly to take your dog to such places, un-muzzled, and expect every other dog to avoid yours.
I'm not going to keep my dogs on a lead as I walk through a forest just in case they stumble across some anti-social dog who's being walked on a lead.
Don't get me wrong, if somebody tells me that their dog doesn't like other dogs I'll call mine away but you've got to apply a bit of personal responsibility as well.
If you're walking a dog in a place where it's likely there will be other dogs off the lead you should consider that and if your own dog is likely to attack another dog while it's on the lead then you should really consider muzzling it.
Mine is a bit frail and I would kick another dog in a heartbeat to rescue her from an attack. In fact there used to be a huge cat locally - nicknamed psycho cat on account of it leaping onto the backs of passing dogs and even attacking people. I was one of the dog owners who took to carrying a big stick......
I have a chow, he has never shown any aggression to other dogs even when being attacked.
He is quite capable of hurting or killing these dogs that attack him, I could just let him off the lead and eventually he will, but I don't want him to be dog aggressive.
It's always little terrier types that attack him and they really wouldn't last long if he turned on them.
Strangely enough all the staffies we have met have been fine with him, even ones that are usually dog aggressive.
Thank you. I thought I was alone with this logic!
Edited to add: If you've have a dog (from being a pup) that doesn't socialise well, and is aggressive to other dogs then you really have failed as an owner. Of course, this doesn't apply for rescue/attacked dogs. Not aimed at you Molliepops...just in general.
Must say, I kinda feel like that too.
I'm fortunate enough to live right between a river and a large forest so the only time my dogs are on a lead is when we're walking to one of those places and, after that, they're usually off the lead all the time and I've probably only had 2 or 3 dubious incidents in the last decade or so.
I don't take mine to places for their first walk where they should expect off lead dogs, I have problems end of my road where we have a small green surrounded by roads no more than a hundred feet one way and a couple of hundred feet the other, first walk never been on a lead before. I have problems round our local lake where we have elderly people and children going to their respective schools and café where I would expect all dogs to be on leads for everyone's safety. I am not in a forest or traditional off lead area. I probably will never now get to one of those areas because of irresponsible off lead dog owners.
And mine won't attack other dogs that is part of the problem they are scared I can pick 5lb Betty up but Elsie is another matter and now she is scared I am honestly struggling to know what to do. She was a confident happy pup until she was walked and mobbed.
I agree there is an element of choosing the walk based on your dog's temperament. As you say, I wouldn't walk mine in the woods because they (well, Hansel) is dog aggressive. Over the fields at quiet times when I have a clear view, yes. I can spot another dog and pop them back on lead and move over to the side or choose a different path in order to keep some distance. Over the park when busy or through the woods even on lead all the while would be stupid as it would set Hansel back if we were to run into an unruly off lead dog - or even a well manner dog sometimes!
That said, I expect any dog being walked by the road to be under super close control - preferably on lead. I'll cross the road to avoid another dog - I don't expect that dog to come trotting over the road to mither mine when I have done the responsible thing and put 10ft of tarmac between us:o
I have had dog aggressive dogs before Duncan was the worst we couldn't walk anywhere we might meet off lead dogs but equally we were not welcome where dogs were on lead because his barking and snapping was not easy to control. You end up with even worse socialised dog because you get to a point where you are scared to go anywhere.
The people who cause the problems are the ones who think that 'off lead' means running riot with no recall at all. And the ones who think socialisation is just letting you pup loose in a busy park and letting other dogs and their owners deal with it.
Dogs' body language is complex and most dogs are only half fluent IME.
That is fair enough:). You asked if kicking a dog was acceptable,I took it to mean is kicking one acceptable in general, which is obviously not, but if you were meaning in self defence then yes it is, same as anything done in self defence is.
We seem to reach a point where he's OK to pass by another dog fairly close - he looks to me & might make a little whine but leaves the other dog. I reassure and reward the calm behaviour. Buffy gets even better - she is very food orientated so very easy to alter associations so she may even wag at the dog and on her own will even play with some dogs.
And then we have a set back.:( Every time. An off lead dog over the park when we thought it was safe to go there, a bouncy dog on the beach. So back to square one and we stick to the pavement as all dogs will be one lead won't they? Apparently not
They are only little dogs so anything bigger than a Cocker is a giant. A huge unruly Lab is like King Kong to us. So it doesn't take a lot to scare them and a walk becomes a chore instead of a pleasure for all of us
Everyone to their own .........The worst culprits for violence tend to be the smaller ones ......Rosie has only been attacked once and that was by a Yorkshire terrier when she was a pup ..........
You're out walking in a public area, (field, park etc) your dog is off lead, your dog approaches another dog, (on lead) the on lead dog attacks your off lead dog.
Who is to blame? And would you report the other dog's owner for the attack?
It depends, there have been such incidents and usually 'on lead' counts as under control, ie the owner can pull the dog away.
But... if the dog has a history of dog aggression, it would be argued that the on lead dog should be muzzled.
Personally, I think the former, my dog is under adequate control on a short lead, if you allow your dog to approach and a fight ensues, the loose dog is out of control. JMHO.
There's partial blame on both sides IMO. Ultimately though, if you know your dog has a history of aggression to others then the majority of the blame is passed onto you as your dog should be muzzled.
Yes, I would report the owner...they've been negligent in allowing a dog they know that has behavioural issues to be unmuzzled when it has a possibility of meeting another.
Interesting point there.
In answer to the question, if my dogs wandered up to a dog that was on a lead and got attacked I'd have to say that the got what they deserved.
As it is, none of my dogs are particularly keen to investigate other dogs without encouragement so it's never been a problem.
What I really wanted to mention, though, was that every time (and I genuinely mean every time, which is still only a handful of times in over 10 years) that I've been in that situation it's usually been a case of us encountering another dog while we're out walking, the owner saying it's okay for the dogs to "say hello" and then the other dog (the one that's on the lead) will suddenly get all snarly and bitey, usually followed by the owner saying something like "Goodness, I don't know what got into him!"
Hmmm....
Funny thing is, of all my dogs, my Sprocker is the cutest, fuzzyest ickle teddy-bear of a dog but if another dog pesters her she turns into a little miniature werewolf for about 2 seconds, and that seems to deter even the biggest aggressor, and then reverts back into a teddy-bear.
I think dogs just have this innate sense for deciding "who's the boss" and that deters the vast majority of potential problems before the owners are even aware of them.
I was reading this before.......
http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/house-garden-194/garden-plants-animals-610/707499-settle-debate-regarding-dogs-off-leads-public-all.html
.......especially post #19
Do you think you would still have a case?
The owner of the off lead dog should be able to recall it away from an on lead dog.
The owner of the on lead dog needs to take all appropriate steps to prevent an attack.
The thing is.... you have to define 'attack'.... if it was a real attack IMHO, then the off lead dog would leg it, if it sticks around to scrap then it just two dogs having a disagreement.
Let's not forget that dogs are on lead for lots of reasons. My friends dog has had spinal surgery and is on lead, she could be killed by an off lead dog bouncing on her.
Simple answer, don't allow your dogs to approach onlead dogs, if you cannot recall them, keep them on onlead too. Just because your dog is 'friendly' doesn't give it free reign to run riot.
TBH, I think post #19 in that thread is complete fantasy, at best dreamed up by somebody who's got a dog that they only ever let run around their own garden and then wonder why it's antisocial.
I guess you have to look at it from all perspectives though.
Whenever this has happened to me it's only been a snarl and a snap, resulting in my own dog/s retreating swiftly away, so it's never been worthy of a second thought.
If, OTOH, I met somebody with a large dog on a lead, was told it was okay for them to "say hello" and the other dog took a chunk out of one of my dogs and the owner was physically incapable of restraining their animal I'd certainly consider reporting the owner because they're obviously unaware of their dogs temperament, unable to control it properly and not taking sufficient precautions, all regardless of whether my dog was on a lead or not.
*EDIT*
While I'm at it, I thought post #14 in that thread was pretty funny too.
"I was letting my toddler run around in a forest when they were confronted by an off the lead dog"
No trace of irony or self-awareness.
Laughable .....The owner in post 19 in describing the Alpha qualities of their dog was the worst example of a good dog owner you could pick
Did it actually take a chunk out though? Even cause a minor wound?
Or did it just snap to tell you dog to get out of it's face.... it could hardly run away could it.
If the owner could not physically control the dog, that is an separate matter IMO.
Erm, it was a hypothetical situation so I guess I'd go with "yes".
Point being, I'm sure there would be occasions where a person with a dog on a lead might be responsible for their dog causing harm to another one.