Top Of The Pops 1979 (BBC4)

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  • corriandercorriander Posts: 6,207
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    Where on earth is your evidence for such an amusingly weird and inaccurate assertion? There is no connection between the tracks whatsoever, even in influence that I can fathom. About the only connection is that they both have the word "boys" in the title and made the top ten. This Bowie 1979 single is "the template" for a 1994 Blur single? No.

    Which makes me wonder if you really did think the group with the One Way Ticket were called Erection? I'd presumed it was a slip, but there's room for doubt now! :p

    Corriander, you write some really interesting comments at times but then throw in one or two absolute howling stinkers that seem so out of place. ;-)

    Again, dearie me. The link is lyrical. Both songs are about gender in its infinite variety.:)
  • corriandercorriander Posts: 6,207
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    ...on the rise??

    A Freudian slip.:o
  • CentaurionCentaurion Posts: 2,060
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    I preferred Sparks earlier hits, and who could POSSIBLY take the The Damned seriously as anything other than a Panto act ?


    They were The Punk Barron Knights [ google them ]
  • JedikiahJedikiah Posts: 5,396
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    corriander wrote: »
    Dearie me. So often wrong. Not so I think.:o

    The Damned are indeed the original punk band, as many people cite their New Rose as the first ever punk single. However, they had such a long shelf life and so many hits that it is not wrong to classify them as New Wave, although such classifications only have limited meaning.:)

    Interesting that Boys Keep Swinging was later sampled by Blur. However, Girls and Boys is obviously influenced by Boys Keep Swinging, indeed I often saw it rather as their tribute to Bowie. Both songs are great and distinctive too.:)

    Yes. Some of the very early punk bands were described as 'new wave', before the term 'punk' became the most widely used description. Later new wave was used as a description of the post punk bands, which were influenced by punk's anger, but who's music was often a little more watered down and accessible.

    Blur's m o r definitely does use 'Boys Keep Swinging' as its template most clearly, but the influence in 'Girls And Boys' for me, seems pretty obvious too, although 'Girls And Boys' doesn't follow the 'Boys Keep Swinging' structure anywhere near as closely as m o r. does. However, whichever way you look at it, Damon was highly influenced by Mr Bowie.
  • Rich Tea.Rich Tea. Posts: 22,048
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    corriander wrote: »
    Again, dearie me. The link is lyrical. Both songs are about gender in its infinite variety.:)

    "This track is the template for Girls & Boys by Blur" is what you wrote when mentioning Boys Keep Swinging by David Bowie. This is to assert that the writer of the Blur track, Damon Albarn, was deliberately considering Bowie's hit when making that later song. You have alluded to a definite influence and intended connection, whereas what you are perceiving is nothing more than a coincidence. You could pair many tracks and say that the link is lyrical between them. Your quote suggests that there was more to it. There really wasn't.

    Moving on, and I've always found this particular David Bowie single from 1979 really hard to fix into any aspect of his career although it was I believe meant to be a continuation of his "Berlin" period. It seems to be a stand alone track between many of his more stronger personas. The album it came from, called Lodger, is not a particular stand out album at all and I think it is fair to say is considered one of his weaker ones of the period. 1979 is such a strong year for so many artists that you almost assume it is hard to put a foot wrong, but for Bowie it was to be another year until we witnessed his true brilliance again in my opinion. Boys Keep Swinging is average Bowie fare, still good though.
  • The GathererThe Gatherer Posts: 2,723
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    "This track is the template for Girls & Boys by Blur" is what you wrote when mentioning Boys Keep Swinging by David Bowie. This is to assert that the writer of the Blur track, Damon Albarn, was deliberately considering Bowie's hit when making that later song. You have alluded to a definite influence and intended connection, whereas what you are perceiving is nothing more than a coincidence. You could pair many tracks and say that the link is lyrical between them. Your quote suggests that there was more to it. There really wasn't.

    Moving on, and I've always found this particular David Bowie single from 1979 really hard to fix into any aspect of his career although it was I believe meant to be a continuation of his "Berlin" period. It seems to be a stand alone track between many of his more stronger personas. The album it came from, called Lodger, is not a particular stand out album at all and I think it is fair to say is considered one of his weaker ones of the period. 1979 is such a strong year for so many artists that you almost assume it is hard to put a foot wrong, but for Bowie it was to be another year until we witnessed his true brilliance again in my opinion. Boys Keep Swinging is average Bowie fare, still good though.

    Both Bowie and Abba were to return in 1980 with far stronger singles than they managed in 1979.
  • LittleGirlOf7LittleGirlOf7 Posts: 9,344
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    corriander wrote: »
    Dearie me. So often wrong. Not so I think.:o

    The Damned are indeed the original punk band, as many people cite their New Rose as the first ever punk single. However, they had such a long shelf life and so many hits that it is not wrong to classify them as New Wave, although such classifications only have limited meaning.:)

    Oh well done, you've read Wikipedia.

    They're still punk.

    corriander wrote: »
    Interesting that Boys Keep Swinging was later sampled by Blur. However, Girls and Boys is obviously influenced by Boys Keep Swinging, indeed I often saw it rather as their tribute to Bowie. Both songs are great and distinctive too.:)

    It's more interesting that you didn't appear to know this despite being so very sure it solely influenced 'Girls & Boys', which, by the way, is pure assumption on your part rather than established fact. You often saw it as a tribute to Bowie? Funny, because you don't even appear to be particularly sure of its title when you first mentioned it last year... http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showpost.php?p=70096841&postcount=1552


    Are you sure you've really checked the facts on this?


    While you're at it, you might also like to look up the meaning of hubris.
  • China GirlChina Girl Posts: 2,748
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    Rich Tea, I agree with you about Bowie's album Lodger. I don't really like it that much, it's quite depressing over all. I haven't played it for years, I have it on vinyl, but my collection would not be complete without it.
    Scary Monsters waits in the wings......wow talk about worth the wait. :)
  • Rich Tea.Rich Tea. Posts: 22,048
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    Talking about The Damned made me dig out a brilliant book tonight that I got in the late 90's and haven't read in a long time, published by Guinness and called Rockopedia - The Ultimate A to Z of Rock & Pop. Looking up The Damned it describes what they are as "Amphetimine Fuelled Punk Pioneers".

    As LittleGirlOf7 has mentioned Wikipedia I took a glance and it does not even mention the words "new wave" regards their genre, but Corriander could always go and edit their profile and add that I guess! Mind you I take anything on Wikipedia with a pinch of salt. It's not always reliable. For instance it says that Captain Sensible has just had his 60th birthday, but my actual Rockopedia book has him down as a year younger.

    Genres are not always that easily defined. I've lost count of the amount of times I have been indexing my digital collection when adding new but well known popular tracks by well known artists and have really had to think about the most appropriate genre to place them in. Sometimes iTunes automatically decides a genre for you if you buy a track or use the gracenote feature when adding CD's, but I often find myself disagreeing with their automatic genre and have changed it in the past.
  • ServalanServalan Posts: 10,167
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    Jedikiah wrote: »
    Yes. Some of the very early punk bands were described as 'new wave', before the term 'punk' became the most widely used description. Later new wave was used as a description of the post punk bands, which were influenced by punk's anger, but who's music was often a little more watered down and accessible.

    I don't think that's correct at all.

    'Punk' was the original term used for the Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Ramones - and, however strange it may appear in hindsight, The Jam, the Stranglers, Adam & The Ants and Blondie.

    'New wave' was a term the music industry coined after the Sex Pistols appeared on Bill Grundy's Thames TV show and generated numerous negative 'punk rock outrage'-type stories - in other words, it was an attempt to distance groups record companies had paid huge amounts of money for from the Pistols and the never-ending coverage of their anti-monarchy, anti-establishment and violent antics. In other words, it was a bid to give punk a veneer of acceptability - and shift more units.

    The Damned may have been the first punk group to release a single and an album, but their career even by 1979 was a mini-soap opera of band members leaving, the group splitting up and getting back together again, and has rather continued like that all the way up until today. 'Love Song' was their first chart single - and their record company at the time obviously clocked the promotion Chrysalis lavished on Generation X's 'King Rocker' and released it in four different picture sleeves (each with a different band member on the front) and in 'blood red' vinyl. Hard to imagine then that they'd end up in the Top 5 seven years later with a cover of 'Eloise' - not very punk but another chapter in their saga ...
  • The GathererThe Gatherer Posts: 2,723
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    Talking about The Damned made me dig out a brilliant book tonight that I got in the late 90's and haven't read in a long time, published by Guinness and called Rockopedia - The Ultimate A to Z of Rock & Pop. Looking up The Damned it describes what they are as "Amphetimine Fuelled Punk Pioneers".

    As LittleGirlOf7 has mentioned Wikipedia I took a glance and it does not even mention the words "new wave" regards their genre, but Corriander could always go and edit their profile and add that I guess! Mind you I take anything on Wikipedia with a pinch of salt. It's not always reliable. For instance it says that Captain Sensible has just had his 60th birthday, but my actual Rockopedia book has him down as a year younger.

    Genres are not always that easily defined. I've lost count of the amount of times I have been indexing my digital collection when adding new but well known popular tracks by well known artists and have really had to think about the most appropriate genre to place them in. Sometimes iTunes automatically decides a genre for you if you buy a track or use the gracenote feature when adding CD's, but I often find myself disagreeing with their automatic genre and have changed it in the past.

    Rich, the dislike between Corriander and LittleGirl makes our (sometimes) friendly rivalry look tame in comparison! :D. Adds a bit of spark to the debate though!
  • Rich Tea.Rich Tea. Posts: 22,048
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    China Girl wrote: »
    Rich Tea, I agree with you about Bowie's album Lodger. I don't really like it that much, it's quite depressing over all. I haven't played it for years, I have it on vinyl, but my collection would not be complete without it.
    Scary Monsters waits in the wings......wow talk about worth the wait. :)

    Having a glance through the lengthy Bowie section of my Guinness Rockopedia book it describes his 1979 album Lodger as "under-loved". Despite that it did manage to make No4 album in June '79. As for the single Boys Keep Swinging it makes a rather interesting comment that "despite the sinister David-In-Drag video the song still managed to make a UK top ten placing".
  • Rich Tea.Rich Tea. Posts: 22,048
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    Rich, the dislike between Corriander and LittleGirl makes our (sometimes) friendly rivalry look tame in comparison! :D. Adds a bit of spark to the debate though!

    A rivalry? :o

    Always enjoy a lively discussion. Adding Sparks to the debate, I guess you want to talk about the Mael brothers again after their appearance this week! :p


    Here's an example of not trusting Wikipedia. Just looked up the ages of the brothers online and it said Russell was born 5th October 1948, yet my Rockopedia book has his date of birth a full 7 years later on 5th October 1955. His older brother Ron it said on wiki was born on 12th August 1945 but my Rockopedia book says 5 years later in 1950. What to believe? Surely my expensive book isn't full of errors?
  • darren1090darren1090 Posts: 211
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    Robbie01 wrote: »
    I love Amii's version of 'Knock On Wood' so much that my legs are twitching in time to the music as I type this!

    And to counter an earlier opinion, the original is much better than the pointless 1985 remix. If it ain't broke...

    I have Amii's debut LP, the best way of ensuring you get the right versions of the tracks. Prior to me buying it second hand, I bought a cassette best of that I didn't know contained the remixes rather than the originals, and another compilation also had a different remix of "Light my fire".

    No-one has picked up on the fact that Amii's producer was Simon " we'll gather lilacs" May (think back to the 1977 reruns). What a change in form! I heard him being interviewed on my BBC local radio station about his work with Amii a couple of years ago.
  • The GathererThe Gatherer Posts: 2,723
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    darren1090 wrote: »
    And to counter an earlier opinion, the original is much better than the pointless 1985 remix. If it ain't broke...

    I have Amii's debut LP, the best way of ensuring you get the right versions of the tracks. Prior to me buying it second hand, I bought a cassette best of that I didn't know contained the remixes rather than the originals, and another compilation also had a different remix of "Light my fire".

    No-one has picked up on the fact that Amii's producer was Simon " we'll gather lilacs" May (think back to the 1977 reruns). What a change in form! I heard him being interviewed on my BBC local radio station about his work with Amii a couple of years ago.

    Pointless? Far superior! Just because the original is good doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. And a Top 10 hit is never pointless. (For info, the remix of "Light My Fire" was a double A side with the remix of "Knock on Wood".)
  • The GathererThe Gatherer Posts: 2,723
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    Really odd that I've got all the Bee Gees hits in my digital collection up to their 2001 hit This Is Where I Came In which I have on a CD with the video on it, but only in the past few days did I suddenly discover that their 1979 single Love You Inside & Out is missing! Not for much longer thanks to TOTP.

    The problem is some of the greatest Bee Gees singles, such as One, Nights on Broadway, Fanny and Love So Right were not major hits. The only way to get a true reflection of their brilliance is to buy their albums. True the albums have a few duff tracks but these are in the minority. But even if you buy all the albums you are still missing out. One of my favourite Bee Gees songs of all time is 855 7019 and that was only an extra track on a CD single!!
  • JedikiahJedikiah Posts: 5,396
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    Having a glance through the lengthy Bowie section of my Guinness Rockopedia book it describes his 1979 album Lodger as "under-loved". Despite that it did manage to make No4 album in June '79. As for the single Boys Keep Swinging it makes a rather interesting comment that "despite the sinister David-In-Drag video the song still managed to make a UK top ten placing".

    I wouldn't undervalue the Lodger album too much, because there are some very interesting things on there.

    David Bowie uses his talent differently to most of his contemporaries. Many of them such as Mick Jagger, Marc Bolan, and Noddy Holder, have a very strongly identiiable sound, which in some ways, are inherited, as being part of who they are. In that respect, and certainly with regards to vocals, David Bowie wasn't quite so blessed. However, he managed to take a disadvantage, and making it to his advantage, by managing to adapt various personas from his different influences, and make them his own. There is a direct link in much of his music to artists like Anthony Newley, Scott Walker, and Lou Reed, amongst others, which he uses, like taking on and off various masks, when he feels the time is right. That has ultimately been to his advantage and his disadvantage, because it has enabled him to adapt his chameleon persona, and transcend the times better than most, but it has also meant there are times when he has come across quite pretentious and contrived, and for me, unconvincing.

    David's never going to be the essence of rock 'n' roll spontaneity/vitality, because he's far too calculating for that, but he was/is a highly intelligent artist who likes to intellectualize his musical endeavours, more than most. Sometimes, though beneath all the pretentions, and contrivances, what i think is perhaps his biggest strength, and something which is sometimes easily overlooked, is he's a superb songwriter.
  • Heston VestonHeston Veston Posts: 6,478
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    corriander wrote: »
    Roxy Music, Dance Away: big comeback hit after which they would hardly go away. They did seem older than the younger bands by now, probably because they were. A very classy record and a smash.:)

    Bryan Ferry is a positively ancient 34 in this video (same age as Debbie Harry and seven years younger than Jet Black of The Stranglers). Around this time, sneering remarks were being made in the music press about how soon it would be before ageing rockers would have to retire before they became irrelevant, or an embarrassment, or both. 34 years later, Ferry is still going strong, as is Debbie Harry, and Jet Black is hanging in there.
  • ServalanServalan Posts: 10,167
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    corriander wrote: »
    Roxy Music, Dance Away: big comeback hit after which they would hardly go away. They did seem older than the younger bands by now, probably because they were. A very classy record and a smash.:)

    'Dance Away' may have been their comeback hit - but it wasn't their comeback single … that was the more new wave-ish 'Trash', the first single off Manifesto, which barely scraped the Top 40 earlier in 1979.

    It's probably fair to say that 'Dance Away' rather set the tone for their second run of hits, and indeed Bryan Ferry's 80s solo work. You can certainly see why Polydor would have wanted more in the same vein … ;-)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 9,516
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    A rivalry? :o

    Always enjoy a lively discussion. Adding Sparks to the debate, I guess you want to talk about the Mael brothers again after their appearance this week! :p


    Here's an example of not trusting Wikipedia. Just looked up the ages of the brothers online and it said Russell was born 5th October 1948, yet my Rockopedia book has his date of birth a full 7 years later on 5th October 1955. His older brother Ron it said on wiki was born on 12th August 1945 but my Rockopedia book says 5 years later in 1950. What to believe? Surely my expensive book isn't full of errors?

    Being old enough to remember Sparks from first time round, I can say that Ron was born on 12th August 1948, and Russ on 5th Oct 1953. They were on Swap Shop or something Noel hosted on Saturday morning in 1974, when Russ celebrated his 21st! So that is definitely correct, remember it as if yesterday :D
  • Robin DaviesRobin Davies Posts: 426
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    Rich Tea. wrote: »
    Here's an example of not trusting Wikipedia. Just looked up the ages of the brothers online and it said Russell was born 5th October 1948, yet my Rockopedia book has his date of birth a full 7 years later on 5th October 1955. His older brother Ron it said on wiki was born on 12th August 1945 but my Rockopedia book says 5 years later in 1950. What to believe? Surely my expensive book isn't full of errors?
    Both Sparks books (by Daryl Easlea and Dave Thompson) agree with the Wikipedia dates. Ron and Russell enjoyed playing with journalists by telling fibs about their personal details. Sometimes they claimed to be the sons of Doris Day!
  • Robin DaviesRobin Davies Posts: 426
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    Centaurion wrote: »
    Who could POSSIBLY take the The Damned seriously as anything other than a Panto act ?
    They were The Punk Barron Knights
    The Damned turned out some great tunes. The Barron Knights mostly did "comedy" versions of other people's songs. Can't see any similarity there.
  • Rich Tea.Rich Tea. Posts: 22,048
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    Servalan wrote: »
    'Dance Away' may have been their comeback hit - but it wasn't their comeback single … that was the more new wave-ish 'Trash', the first single off Manifesto, which barely scraped the Top 40 earlier in 1979.

    It's probably fair to say that 'Dance Away' rather set the tone for their second run of hits, and indeed Bryan Ferry's 80s solo work. You can certainly see why Polydor would have wanted more in the same vein … ;-)

    Long after Roxy Music had secured their last major hit single and this very week in May 1986 Bryan Ferry & Roxy Music were in the middle of a 5 week long run at No1 in the album chart with Street Life, their greatest hits collection. This was less than a year after he had secured his first ever solo No1 album with Boys & Girls in June 1985 too. So there was another renewed burst of serious chart topping success by him as a soloist and with the group which I recall being somewhat surprised by at the time. I always recall meaning to buy that 1986 Roxy Music album and never ever did get around to it at the time. Officially Roxy Music are together at the present time still.


    Thanks to Red Lady & Robin Davies about the Sparks dates. It seems a very expensive Guinness book is full of basic errors! Not pleased at all about that.
  • corriandercorriander Posts: 6,207
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    Bowie's classic song from 1979 is perhaps not as well known as some of his other material. It is from his album Lodger, the last of his Low Trilogy, which influenced many eighties bands.

    The song is lyrically interesting because, as Ziggy Stardust and on Aladdin Sane in 1973 he had been fascinated by gender nonconformity, and had even declared himself to be "gay" in an interview with Melody Maker in early 1972. This had little to do with David Jones or with David Bowie, but with the characters he was playing in his songs and on stage. He was interested in what was happening in relationships between men and women at the time and at the greater visibility of alternatives to heterosexuality.

    The character he plays in Boys Keeps Swinging features Bowie making fun of the advantages of being a bloke. The whole tone of the song is ironical, which means it is not to be taken literally. Being a bloke is a burden. This fitted in well with the mood of the time, and the greater gender equality of the punk movement (say compared to hippies) which was questioning both male and female "roles", what society expected of a man and of a woman. It is very 1979.

    Bowie, though, was not the first to make these observations in British rock. I always thought for example that the Who's I'm a Boy was remarkable for 1966:" I'm a Boy/I'm a Boy/But my Mama won't admit it/If I say I am I get it." About a kid who wants to be a bloke but whose mother won't let him. How amazing is Pete Townsend, as his later work confirmed even more.

    Bowie is always influenced by Lou Reed and Andy Warhol, American artists. As well as by Anthony Newley on the UK side, some of whose hits featured inept, shy blokes: "If I say I love you/ Do You Mind?" However, Ray Davies's Lola is the great Brit song about how gender might not always be what it seems.

    Damon Albarn and Blur were only too aware of this tradition in our pop culture when they came up with Girls and Boys twenty years ago (OMG):)
  • corriandercorriander Posts: 6,207
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    It is hard to find a band more varied in their influences than Blur, but, during their Britpop phase and earlier in their career, some of their well known songs do seem to reference the greatest period of British rock (which for me has to be the mid sixties (so not 1979 I am afraid).

    I have always thought that There is No Other Way is a sort of rewrite of See Emily Play, one of the great British pop/rock records of the Sixties.:)

    Also, the cockney rap of Phil Daniels (star of Quadrophrenia from 1979 obviously) in Park Life always reminds me of the Small Faces' Lazy Sunday Afternoon. I am sure that this is deliberate. Blur were only too aware of the great musical context in which they worked, like all great artists, and this song, which I think equals Lazy Sunday Afternoon is one hell of a compliment to Steve Marriott, the leader of the Small Faces and a star who never got his due; indeed, who like Ray Davies, pioneered the British take on rock.:)

    Of course all these Blur numbers are completely original and stand up on their own, despite referencing the past.

    Whether that is true of Oasis songs from the same time I could not possibly comment.:o
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