Why must the NHS employ so many foreign doctors?

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  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    Daedroth wrote: »
    While I understand that, I just think that a doctor should be able to speak clearly and be understandable. Communication error in the medical field could be devastating in an extreme case. If a thick-accented Gaslwegian doctor came to our local GP in Liverpool, I would expect him or her to change the way they speak so they could be understood in the place they work. And the other way round.

    To be honest, I think you're expecting a bit much. Many overseas doctors do their medical training in countries other than their own. For example, a lot of African doctors go to places like Russia to study medicine. This means that they have to learn another language simply in order to do that. Many of them also have worked in other European countries where they may again have to learn another language.

    You may like the idea of them being required to adapt to regional accents but in practice, it's not realistic or reasonable.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 618
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    I dont really have a problem with foreign doctors though I do get annoyed when they can barely speak at all never mind in english.

    The last time I was at hospital I had an pakistani Dr who was so quiet it was near impossible to hear what he was saying. This is no good at all imo.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13,481
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    cpu121 wrote: »
    The trouble is down the line the number of doctors required changes (perhaps less taking early retirement for example or we can't afford to train so many) and you realise you're going to have too many doctors so you cut the number of doctors being trained. You probably end up undershooting the target level just as you overshot it in the first place like a rollercoaster.

    The use of out of hours cover has become much more widespread under recent contracts.

    Ah, yes, the penny has dropped here, at last, and I finally understand. Thank you.

    I didn't realise out of hours cover was not so common nationwide in the past.
  • .Lauren..Lauren. Posts: 7,864
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    They do have to have good English otherwise they cannot be employed here. This has to be demonstrated in order to be registered with the GMC.

    The reason why some people find it difficult to understand some overseas doctors is usually not because of grammatical or vocabulary problems but more likely because of the way some words are pronounced and because of accents.

    See I agree with that, but like I gave in my example in an earlier post some do slip through the net. It wasn't that I didn't understand him, but he didn't understand me.
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    .Lauren. wrote: »
    See I agree with that, but like I gave in my example in an earlier post some do slip through the net. It wasn't that I didn't understand him, but he didn't understand me.

    So it's the same for anyone who is using another language. Languages are not taught in regional accents/dialects so it can be very difficult to understand people who have strong accents.

    We even see this here amongst British people - where Aberdonians might not be understood in Hampshire but we're still all native English speakers. ;)
  • zoepaulpennyzoepaulpenny Posts: 15,951
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    Why are Indian doctors cheap for the NHS?

    because they are trained to a higher standard than the nhs requires in some countries. and they don't always get the high wages that consultant gets or even the surgeons...
  • .Lauren..Lauren. Posts: 7,864
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    So it's the same for anyone who is using another language. Languages are not taught in regional accents/dialects so it can be very difficult to understand people who have strong accents.

    We even see this here amongst British people - where Aberdonians might not be understood in Hampshire but we're still all native English speakers. ;)

    But it's still dangerous to have a doctor that doesn't understand a patient and cannot respond in any more than very broken English, regardless of dialect. I speak the typical well spoken (ish) Queen's English which is what most foreigners are taught in so i don't think i would even have a had an odd dialect to him.

    Either way it must have been a problem because he left the surgery very soon after that and I've spoken to a few other people who had the same problem.
  • zoepaulpennyzoepaulpenny Posts: 15,951
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    I would seriously wonder about the level of training of some "doctors" from some African countries, especially those who can't speak English. Who knows how much training they have really had? The NHS don't seen to give a shit.
    agree and to some extent some indian doctors as well.
  • EmmersonneEmmersonne Posts: 4,532
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    So it's the same for anyone who is using another language. Languages are not taught in regional accents/dialects so it can be very difficult to understand people who have strong accents.

    We even see this here amongst British people - where Aberdonians might not be understood in Hampshire but we're still all native English speakers. ;)

    :o Good guess, I am Hampshirian and it's my neighbours from Aberdeenshire that I have to smile and nod to most of the time.

    One kindly invited me into her hoose for a cork. She had to repeat it three times before I got it, I was so embarrassed.

    I read somewhere that German Universities are the most popular for students speaking English as a second (or third) language as the accent is easiest to understand. Makes sense when you consider the roots of modern English.
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    .Lauren. wrote: »
    But it's still dangerous to have a doctor that doesn't understand a patient and cannot respond in any more than very broken English, regardless of dialect. I speak the typical well spoken (ish) Queen's English which is what most foreigners are taught in so i don't think i would even have a had an odd dialect to him.

    Either way it must have been a problem because he left the surgery very soon after that and I've spoken to a few other people who had the same problem.

    I have never met a doctor practising in Britain who could only speak "broken English". For a start, it's unlikely that they would be able to pass a PLAB (Professional and Linguistic Assessments Board) exam or have a successful job interview if they could not speak English to a satisfactory standard and they would not be able to work in Britain unless they did pass the PLAB exam.

    There may have been other reasons why he didn't stay long at your surgery.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 300
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    I agree that it's the very strong accents which cause the most difficulties.
    It must be especially difficult for elderly patients, many of whom are hard of hearing.....
  • .Lauren..Lauren. Posts: 7,864
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    I have never met a doctor practising in Britain who could only speak "broken English". For a start, it's unlikely that they would be able to pass a PLAB (Professional and Linguistic Assessments Board) exam or have a successful job interview if they could not speak English to a satisfactory standard and they would not be able to work in Britain unless they did pass the PLAB exam.

    There may have been other reasons why he didn't stay long at your surgery.

    Again, I would agree with you normally, but this guy had definitely slipped through the net somehow. I've never had that problem before and I see many foreign doctors.

    I'm sorry but pointing to different parts of your body to try and match where I was saying the pain was because he couldn't understand, is not satisfactory at all.
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    .Lauren. wrote: »
    Again, I would agree with you normally, but this guy had definitely slipped through the net somehow. I've never had that problem before and I see many foreign doctors.

    I'm sorry but pointing to different parts of your body to try and match where I was saying the pain was because he couldn't understand, is not satisfactory at all.

    Well, as I wasn't there, I can't argue with your version of events. All I can do is state what requirements overseas doctors have to satisfy in order to be licensed to practice medicine in the UK. I'm trying to think of some other reason why he may not have been able to communicate with you effectively but it would only be a guess. I'd say it's not typical though. :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13,481
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    I was once diagnosed by a GP with a strong Indian accent as having wireless infection of the malaria. It turned out that he meant virus infection of the middle ear. There was nothing wrong with his medical skills that I could see and he was a lovely, gentle man but judging by conversations in the waiting room, other people also had trouble working out his gist. His English was infinitely better than my Urdu though.


    Unfortunately I have to see more doctors than I would like and can say it's hugely unsettling to consult with someone you cannot understand at all. That's not a regular event for me but is a waste of everyone's time when it happens, and I may have waited months for that appointment to come round. It matters when it's something more than an everyday ailment under discussion. It's certain African accents that are the toughest.

    What are you to do when this happens?
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    TeaCosy wrote: »
    I was once diagnosed by a GP with a strong Indian accent as having wireless infection of the malaria. It turned out that he meant virus infection of the middle ear. There was nothing wrong with his medical skills that I could see and he was a lovely, gentle man but judging by conversations in the waiting room, other people also had trouble working out his gist. His English was infinitely better than my Urdu though.


    Unfortunately I have to see more doctors than I would like and can say it's hugely unsettling to consult with someone you cannot understand at all. That's not a regular event for me but is a waste of everyone's time when it happens, and I may have waited months for that appointment to come round. It matters when it's something more than an everyday ailment under discussion. It's certain African accents that are the toughest.

    What are you to do when this happens?

    The thing is though, there are probably fewer doctors from overseas now than there used to be. It is more difficult now for doctors from countries outside of the EEA to secure work in the UK because employers have to demonstrate that they have been unable to recruit suitable applicants from within the EEA before they can recruit from India, Africa, Australia, South America etc.

    The thing is though, you may have just as much trouble in communicating with a doctor from Lithuania or Poland. It's just how it is.

    The flip side of all of this of course is that lots of British doctors go and work overseas and have no working knowledge of the language of the country they go to. Many of them need to have someone translating everything for them if they are treating a non-English speaker. ;)
  • sutiesutie Posts: 32,645
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    They do have to have good English otherwise they cannot be employed here. This has to be demonstrated in order to be registered with the GMC.

    The reason why some people find it difficult to understand some overseas doctors is usually not because of grammatical or vocabulary problems but more likely because of the way some words are pronounced and because of accents.




    That may very well be true, but the reason doesn't make one iota of difference to the patient having difficulty understanding the doctor.
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    sutie wrote: »
    That may very well be true, but the reason doesn't make one iota of difference to the patient having difficulty understanding the doctor.

    Yes, but you can have that problem between native British speakers too as Emmersonne pointed out. ;)
  • sutiesutie Posts: 32,645
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    I have never met a doctor practising in Britain who could only speak "broken English". For a start, it's unlikely that they would be able to pass a PLAB (Professional and Linguistic Assessments Board) exam or have a successful job interview if they could not speak English to a satisfactory standard and they would not be able to work in Britain unless they did pass the PLAB exam.

    There may have been other reasons why he didn't stay long at your surgery.



    Because of various ailments, I have had occasion to visit 3 hospitals in the Manchester area over the last few years. On one occasion, The Eastern European doctor I saw was so unintelligible that when I left the room I had to ask the nurse to 'interpret' what he been said.

    It was very embarrassing constantly having to ask him to repeat everything he said. When you consider that many patients are anxious during consultations, this is the last thing they need and they may very well leave with insufficient or misunderstood advice.
  • sutiesutie Posts: 32,645
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    Yes, but you can have that problem between native British speakers too as Emmersonne pointed out. ;)




    Well I don't think you'll find me championing unintelligible doctors wherever they come from so .................?
  • Pisces CloudPisces Cloud Posts: 30,239
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    Yes, but you can have that problem between native British speakers too as Emmersonne pointed out. ;)

    It probably is easier though for native speakers to speak more clearly if asked to, that might not be the case for people who don't really know the language fluently.
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    sutie wrote: »
    Because of various ailments, I have had occasion to visit 3 hospitals in the Manchester area over the last few years. On one occasion, The Eastern European doctor I saw was so unintelligible that when I left the room I had to ask the nurse to 'interpret' what he been said.

    It was very embarrassing constantly having to ask him to repeat everything he said. When you consider that many patients are anxious during consultations, this is the last thing they need and they may very well leave with insufficient or misunderstood advice.

    Well, sometimes the only applicants for vacant jobs are from overseas doctors. How would you feel about vacancies remaining unfilled if there were no suitable British applicants? The thing is that doctors are appointed on merit, based on a number of criteria, not just language skills. It would not be right to simply offer any job to the person who spoke the best English.

    Going back to points raised in the early part of the thread, if there are currently not enough British trained doctors practising in the UK, it's probably partly because university entrance requirements are so high but lowering the entrance requirements would not be the answer to the problem. Medicine is a very demanding course and not everyone is suited to it anyway. If we have a shortfall of doctors at any time in the UK, then we have to look elsewhere to fill vacancies. :o
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 13,481
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    Moany Liza wrote: »
    The thing is though, there are probably fewer doctors from overseas now than there used to be. It is more difficult now for doctors from countries outside of the EEA to secure work in the UK because employers have to demonstrate that they have been unable to recruit suitable applicants from within the EEA before they can recruit from India, Africa, Australia, South America etc.

    The thing is though, you may have just as much trouble in communicating with a doctor from Lithuania or Poland. It's just how it is.

    The flip side of all of this of course is that lots of British doctors go and work overseas and have no working knowledge of the language of the country they go to. Many of them need to have someone translating everything for them if they are treating a non-English speaker. ;)
    Yes, I agree with most of what you say although can't say I've noticed a reduction in the number of overseas doctors. This is in the Greater London area if that makes a difference.
  • Moany LizaMoany Liza Posts: 22,757
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    TeaCosy wrote: »
    Yes, I agree with most of what you say although can't say I've noticed a reduction in the number of overseas doctors. This is in the Greater London area if that makes a difference.

    The rules on immigration for overseas doctors from non EEA countries are quite complex but you also have to bear in mind that some doctors are only in this country for a short to medium term period of time anyway - not permanently.

    For most doctors from EEA countries, there are no immigration restrictions. In addition some non EEA nationals are married to people who are EEA citizens so they also are entitled to seek work here.

    These rules are all relatively recent anyway so some of the doctors you refer to are perhaps still working under a contract in place before the new rules were imposed.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,341
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    Foriegn or not, we owe the people in the medifcal profession a lot from the porter to th surgeon, a lot of respect. So please, don't abuse them or make thir jobs difficult.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,304
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    Reminds me of hardworking foreign Dr. Bob doing the best he can...
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