Fairy tales

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 67
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Steve Moffat has said that he has an interest in fairy tales and children's fears, and has backed this up with a lot of his work, both on Doctor Who and previously.

Fairy tales seem to be a theme in Season 5. I've listed below all the instances I've spotted. I've initially tried to focus on the references that jumped out at me and to leave out those references that only stand out with the theme already established in my head.

Any thoughts, comments, or ridicule welcomed as always; in this case any additions to the list especially welcome.

TEH: The 'imaginary' friend who comes back; Amy leaving for an adventure in her night-dress (cf Wendy in Peter Pan).

TBB: The giant beast that eats children (as wrongly believed by Hawthorne et al); the gentle giant that loves children; the Queen who walks in disguise among her own people.

VotD: The puppet who becomes a real boy (or a least a real middle-aged Scotsman).

ToA / FaS: "A forest in a bottle in a ship in a maze"; the glowing faerie-esqe forest itself; the Doctor calls the Pandorica a fairy tale, River Song replies 'Aren't we all?'

VoV: Nothing that stands out against a back-drop already rich with historical / fantasy imagery. Unless Vampires count as a fairy story?

AC: Pure fairy tale here, as they crew have to chose between two dreams; an adversary who can't harm them directly but can alter their perception to try and trick them into hurting themselves; Rory's 'fairy tale' (ie, perfect) life in Leadworth with Amy.

THE / CB: Nothing evident here, with monsters under the earth being a well-established Doctor Who theme rather than anything especially fairy tale, unless there's a weak connection via the stealing of children.

VatD: Again, nothing especially fairy tale in this, despite the fantasy elements and rich metaphor.

TL: And again, nothing much that's strong enough to mention in a first post.

Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 337
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    TEH - amelia sounds like a name from a fairy tale :)
    VoV could have something to do with masks and disguse - like the wicked queen being the hag - so evil she doesnt mind looking sinister
    AC - happily ever hafter in upper lead worth
    The only thing i can think for the silurians is jack and the bean stalk - climbing to a new work :S
    VatD - invisibility, gentle giant again? since he wasn't trying to hurt people, jsut misunderstood
    TL - don't go up the stairs, the love story element...

    I'm pulling at staws here :L But i think you're on to something :)
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    Tom_Holmes wrote: »
    Steve Moffat has said that he has an interest in fairy tales and children's fears, and has backed this up with a lot of his work, both on Doctor Who and previously.

    Fairy tales seem to be a theme in Season 5. I've listed below all the instances I've spotted. I've initially tried to focus on the references that jumped out at me and to leave out those references that only stand out with the theme already established in my head.

    Any thoughts, comments, or ridicule welcomed as always; in this case any additions to the list especially welcome.

    TEH: The 'imaginary' friend who comes back; Amy leaving for an adventure in her night-dress (cf Wendy in Peter Pan).

    TBB: The giant beast that eats children (as wrongly believed by Hawthorne et al); the gentle giant that loves children; the Queen who walks in disguise among her own people.

    VotD: The puppet who becomes a real boy (or a least a real middle-aged Scotsman).

    ToA / FaS: "A forest in a bottle in a ship in a maze"; the glowing faerie-esqe forest itself; the Doctor calls the Pandorica a fairy tale, River Song replies 'Aren't we all?'

    VoV: Nothing that stands out against a back-drop already rich with historical / fantasy imagery. Unless Vampires count as a fairy story?

    AC: Pure fairy tale here, as they crew have to chose between two dreams; an adversary who can't harm them directly but can alter their perception to try and trick them into hurting themselves; Rory's 'fairy tale' (ie, perfect) life in Leadworth with Amy.

    THE / CB: Nothing evident here, with monsters under the earth being a well-established Doctor Who theme rather than anything especially fairy tale, unless there's a weak connection via the stealing of children.

    VatD: Again, nothing especially fairy tale in this, despite the fantasy elements and rich metaphor.

    TL: And again, nothing much that's strong enough to mention in a first post.

    I love this post, but I'm a fairy-tale freak from way back.

    The Peter Pan reference - the Doctor is a Peter Pan figure anyway, imo, but the Wendy ref is spot on.

    VoV - the innocent girls going into danger unawares, cf Red Riding Hood/Granny's big teeth

    THE/CB - people being taken to another world (usually via a cave or similar, or a magic door appearing in a hill, and sleeping there for 100 years?

    VatD - can only think of the monster in Beauty and the Beast, which turns out not to be bad after all.

    TL - like you, can't think of anything specific with this yet. I'll think about it some more and get back to you.
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    Amy as Little Red Riding Hood as the Wolves/Angels watch her walking through the Forest.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 67
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    xoxRaz - Great references, thanks. I can't believe I forgot 'Amelia Pond: sounds like a name in a fairy tale'.

    I especially love the phrase 'so evil she doesn't mind looking sinister'. I'm going to try and use that in as many contexts as possible.

    Very clever perspective switch in your thought about the Silurians having the fairy tale experience of climbing up to a strange new world. It also reminds me that I had a strong feeling that in that ep. the Silurians (or rather, homo-reptili-yah, to give them their proper name and Matt's wonderful pronunciation) were, beneath their bravado, just as scared of us as the humans were of them.

    This whole thread is, I think, an exercise in straw-clutching :) Fun though.

    Granny McSmith - it's great that I could get a response from a genuine fairy tale freak :) Except that now my own ignorance will stand exposed.

    You're exactly right that the doctor is a Peter Pan figure. Doesn't Rory say something like 'Eventually you've got to grow up' in AC, when arguing that the 'Leadworth' reality is real, or at least desirable?

    Your mention of Little Red Riding Hood reminded me that in ToA / FaS Amy is wearing a red hooded top, especially noticable in the forest scenes.

    Again, I can't believe I missed the enchanted hill aspects of THE / CB - great stuff!

    I think the Beauty and the Beast ref is spot on for VatD.

    (ETA: Damnit, Corwin beat me to the Amy / Little Red Riding hood parallel in FaS and even went one better - thinking back to the ep, the Angels really did seem lupine when they were moving slowly. Good catch.]
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 23
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    Great little spot about the red hooded top. Little things like that make you think that there really is something in theories like this.

    Of course, Little Red Riding Hood was associated with the Bad Wolf. Sure I've heard that somewhere before... :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,353
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    Aeres wrote: »
    Great little spot about the red hooded top. Little things like that make you think that there really is something in theories like this.

    Of course, Little Red Riding Hood was associated with the Bad Wolf. Sure I've heard that somewhere before... :)

    VOV - The townsfolk plagued by misterious villians that live in a big castle/grand house type thing, father attempts to rescue daughter from said big castle/grand house thing.

    Classic fairy tale.

    The peter and wendy reference is well spotted by the way. Peter is after all the boy who never grows up, not a million miles from the Dr who regenerates, and appears to get younger and thus in a way never grows up.

    Interestingly Peter and Wendy is about Wendy having to choose the real world over the fantasy of never never land and "grow up", did we allready see that in Amy's choice or is that still to come in the finale. Hmmmm.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 67
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    Good spot Aeres. And (to ruin your insight with a ridiculous over-stretch - sorry) the beach at the beginning and end of ToA / FaS has been said by some people here to look like Bad Wolf Bay . . .
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    Tom_Holmes wrote: »
    Good spot Aeres. And (to ruin your insight with a ridiculous over-stretch - sorry) the beach at the beginning and end of ToA / FaS has been said by some people here to look like Bad Wolf Bay . . .

    To be fair, pretty much any beach in the UK is going to look like that at the time of year that they film DW....
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 67
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    Absolutely. I don't actually think there'll be any return of Billy or the Bad Wolf theme. It was really just a gratuitous over-stretch of the idea :P
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    Love that "so evil she doesn't mind looking sinister" line. Could refer to many figures in fairy tales - eg Snow Whites stepmother.

    Still can't think of any specific refs for TL. Shapeshifters, eg trolls, witches, luring people to their doom? And of course the lovers theme - the suitor has to go through various trials before winning his lady - including playing football:) And a kiss breaks the spell in the end (ie the illusion?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 566
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    TOA/FAS when Amy is walking through the forest with her red hoody, it's reminiscent of little red riding hood.

    EDIT also mythological references

    The Pandorica which supposedly contains something evil and in a way couyld refer to Pandora's box which was actually a jar, but oh well.

    2. Amy is Pandora or in a way, Amy signifies Pandora because of her avid curiosity. In The Beast Below, she says she could never resist a closed/keep out sign and in Vincent and the Doctor she follows The Doctor twice despite telling her not to, suggesting a deep seated curiosity which is similar to the curiosity that leads Pandora to open the box/jar. So maybe Amy opens the Pandorica either because she thinks the Doctor is locked in and she needs to save him or because curiosity gets the better of her and she unleashes what ever is in there.

    3. Amy is hope and somehow saves the day. Hope is the last thing in the Pandora's box when evil is released into the world, and Amy or Amelia somehow saves the day as she gives hope. We've already seen her save the day or be other's people hope or saviours ie in The Beast Below figuring out that the starwhale chose to save earth, Victory of the Daleks - helping Bracewell to engage his emotions and thus shut down the bomb and in Vincent and the Doctor, well that's pretty explanatory. Plus there's been a number of 'there's still hope' comments from the Doctor.

    4. In Vincent and the Doctor, we see the Doctor using the mirror type gadget to search for the monster which is quite similar to how Perseus killed Medusa. That's probably just coinicidence of methods rather than a deeper spoiler type meaning but who knows?

    5. In the alcove of the museum, there's the statue of Perseus holding the head of Medusa in VatD
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 365
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    agree with all the above, also it has been mentioned before there is a huge amount about deception and things being misleading in this series. The doctor talking about what he 'saw' and telling amy to 'really look' at things. All that stuff about perception filters and masks, and I think even the doctor is hiding something I think (more than usual)

    And of course deception and shape shifting is par for the course in the old fairy tale world...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 163
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    I think even the doctor is hiding something I think (more than usual)

    Me too. There's that line in F&S: "If I always told you the truth, I wouldn't need you to trust me."
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 695
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    Tom_Holmes wrote: »

    THE / CB: Nothing evident here, with monsters under the earth being a well-established Doctor Who theme rather than anything especially fairy tale, unless there's a weak connection via the stealing of children.
    .


    Yes there was...Amy was quite clearly seen in a glass box...think snow white's glass coffin.

    Also, sharp pointy teeth have featured quite prominently.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 337
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    Tom_Holmes wrote: »
    xoxRaz - Great references, thanks. I can't believe I forgot 'Amelia Pond: sounds like a name in a fairy tale'.

    I especially love the phrase 'so evil she doesn't mind looking sinister'. I'm going to try and use that in as many contexts as possible.

    Very clever perspective switch in your thought about the Silurians having the fairy tale experience of climbing up to a strange new world. It also reminds me that I had a strong feeling that in that ep. the Silurians (or rather, homo-reptili-yah, to give them their proper name and Matt's wonderful pronunciation) were, beneath their bravado, just as scared of us as the humans were of them.

    This whole thread is, I think, an exercise in straw-clutching :) Fun though.

    Haha, it's always when you're looking really hard you miss the obvious stuff ;)

    And that line is brilliant - i couldn't remember the exact one so i had to paraphrase a bit :P

    I think you can think of any theme, and find links to it in all the eps if you look hard enough,... However i do think the fairy tale idea is a winner as SM seems to like that. Blink, Silence in the Library, Girl in the Fireplace all seem fairy tale-ish too
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    Corwin wrote: »
    Amy as Little Red Riding Hood as the Wolves/Angels watch her walking through the Forest.

    that did seem quite an explicit one to me.
  • cuttysarkcuttysark Posts: 1,209
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    TEH: Amy does say that Amelia Pond sounded a bit fairy taleish when asked why she changed it.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 98
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    Bobsir wrote: »
    TOA/FAS when Amy is walking through the forest with her red hoody, it's reminiscent of little red riding hood.

    EDIT also mythological references

    The Pandorica which supposedly contains something evil and in a way couyld refer to Pandora's box which was actually a jar, but oh well.

    2. Amy is Pandora or in a way, Amy signifies Pandora because of her avid curiosity. In The Beast Below, she says she could never resist a closed/keep out sign and in Vincent and the Doctor she follows The Doctor twice despite telling her not to, suggesting a deep seated curiosity which is similar to the curiosity that leads Pandora to open the box/jar. So maybe Amy opens the Pandorica either because she thinks the Doctor is locked in and she needs to save him or because curiosity gets the better of her and she unleashes what ever is in there.

    3. Amy is hope and somehow saves the day. Hope is the last thing in the Pandora's box when evil is released into the world, and Amy or Amelia somehow saves the day as she gives hope. We've already seen her save the day or be other's people hope or saviours ie in The Beast Below figuring out that the starwhale chose to save earth, Victory of the Daleks - helping Bracewell to engage his emotions and thus shut down the bomb and in Vincent and the Doctor, well that's pretty explanatory. Plus there's been a number of 'there's still hope' comments from the Doctor.

    4. In Vincent and the Doctor, we see the Doctor using the mirror type gadget to search for the monster which is quite similar to how Perseus killed Medusa. That's probably just coinicidence of methods rather than a deeper spoiler type meaning but who knows?

    5. In the alcove of the museum, there's the statue of Perseus holding the head of Medusa in VatD

    This was filmed in Cardiff Museum and the status has always been there so i dont think that has any part of the story. not trying to be picky lol :D
  • Welsh-ladWelsh-lad Posts: 51,909
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    Aren't all stories (especially fantasy ones) nearly always a mixture of traditional motifs and conventions, only with a new innovation or spin?
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    Welsh-lad wrote: »
    Aren't all stories (especially fantasy ones) nearly always a mixture of traditional motifs and conventions, only with a new innovation or spin?

    I agree that you always find these motifs throughout literature, but it does seem to me that this series of Dw is peppered with them the glass "coffin", for instance, which was mentioned by Hobbes - straight from Snow White and it didn't have to be a glass box, it could have been anything.

    Similarly with the red hoodie in FaS.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 365
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    When River and the doc are talking about fairy tales, there's something about how people are led into dangerous situations by 'good wizards'? (I'm paraphrasing as haven't rewatched) and River says she's exasperated the socalled good wizard that is actually in some ways bad, is always him.

    But isn't she the 'good/bad wizard' in this case, as SHE's the one who leads him into this trap...

    I just thought it was an odd bit of dialogue
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 328
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    Tom_Holmes wrote: »
    Good spot Aeres. And (to ruin your insight with a ridiculous over-stretch - sorry) the beach at the beginning and end of ToA / FaS has been said by some people here to look like Bad Wolf Bay . . .

    They filmed it at the same beach. Don't think it's anything to do with them being connected, they use the same place more than once. The cave with the angels in was the same place they used for the Sycorax ship in The Christmas Invasion.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 337
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    When River and the doc are talking about fairy tales, there's something about how people are led into dangerous situations by 'good wizards'? (I'm paraphrasing as haven't rewatched) and River says she's exasperated the socalled good wizard that is actually in some ways bad, is always him.

    But isn't she the 'good/bad wizard' in this case, as SHE's the one who leads him into this trap...

    I just thought it was an odd bit of dialogue

    ooo, i like! Blaim river, not the doc ;)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 23
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    The most obvious one to me was the credit sequence; which is essentially a tardis tumbling down a rabbit hole.

    Then amy wore the red hood in the forest...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 23
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    Oh and no ones mentioned that moffats specifically said in interviews that this series is "a dark fairy tale."

    may be a clue as to why theres so many recurring fairy tale themes
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