That's exactly what I'm coming across when I chat to people about this. Which is a shame as far as I'm concerned (I see myself as a European more than anything else and have massively enjoyed the free movement aspect of it) but I also kind of get why some people look at it all and think f*ck it, we're better off out of it. The facts may say otherwise (and I say 'may' on purpose) but I think for many this will be a decision based on emotions.
Which is the part that worries me - we should base our choice on hard information about what either action will mean for the UK, now and in the future. I am not sure I trust either of the campaigns to give that information or the media to report it responsibly, even if they do.
Though on the other hand that's a comparison between 2010 and 2060 and there's a few decades between the two which is the sort of omission which for me raises suspicions about what's being covered up and see conspiracy above :eek:...
LIVE: Far-right EDL rally against alleged ‘grooming gangs’ in Colchester Far-right supporters of ‘anti-Islamist’ group the English Defence League (EDL) are expected to rally against further immigration and so-called ‘grooming gangs’ into the UK in the city Colchester, Saturday.
The EDL will be protesting against the alleged increase in the number of ‘grooming gangs‘ or underage prostitution rings in the Colchester areas. EDL members will hold speeches, while anti-fascist demonstrators are expected to infiltrate the rally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5J8eDZB5U8
Lorry driver reveals how he called police after hearing 'banging' from tanker next to him at M40 services - before 14 suspected illegal immigrants were found hiding inside A lorry driver has revealed how he called 999 after hearing a strange 'banging' coming from a tanker at a motorway service station - before 14 suspected illegal immigrants were found hiding inside it.
Scott McCrone, 44, had stopped off at Gaydon Service Station in Warwickshire on Tuesday for an afternoon break when he noticed a loud, repetitive sound coming from a lorry parked next to him.
He initially thought a herd of cows or other animals may be responsible, but the noise was soon joined by shouting. The truck's Spanish driver was inside the building having a Burger King.
Greek coastguard: 'Boats carrying migrants are overcrowded and unsafe' Greece is one of the main routes for migrants making the journey into Europe.
The island of Lesbos, only a few miles from the Turkish coast, has seen an influx of nearly 200,000 refugees since the spring.
Jim Muir asked the commander of the Greek coastguard on Lesbos, Antonios Sofiadelis, why so many are dying on a short crossing that should be simple and safe.
video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34368226
I am more inclined to think that if you acquiesce to customs, attitude and mind-sets which are contrary to your culture or promoting to a better well-being of people, then your country becomes like-minded. And I'll put *Third World* in asterisks because some people of the *First World* can also be rather backward in their understanding/ignorance of what takes place and is taking place in so-called *Third World* countries. For example, many people in the *Third* world are speaking out (sometimes at the point of their deaths) against many of the issues and bad practices which are still unconsciously practised here in the *First* world, issues and practices which are just as hard to grapple, irradiate or make sense of here as they are over there: homophobia, sexism, sexual & gender politics, poverty, corruption (over here, you have to look at the way politicians, big business, the media operate and the way relationships are formed within that tripartite circle).
Well said.
I know you're not saying this but it'd Be nice if we could trade our ignorants for their intelligents.
The extra costs will be offset by having to provide less other services. Less on education, less on security, less on child welfare costs, less on infrastructure. Across the board except for health and related health costs, old people cost less.
Just for a minute, instead of listening to the media, think about how little the older generation costs in comparison the the bulk of birth to retirement age population.
Now admittedly, the cost of housing in this country squews things, but an overall falling population will benefit that too.
We are being sold a lie to ensure that the people who sell things, don't lose out.
Which is the part that worries me - we should base our choice on hard information about what either action will mean for the UK, now and in the future. I am not sure I trust either of the campaigns to give that information or the media to report it responsibly, even if they do.
Exactly. That's why I'm worried too, because when emotions are this stirred facts get lost in the noise, and I've a feeling that what's happening right now won't be sorted out quickly. Before we know it we'll be asked if we're in or out of Europe, and there won't be enough time for this to fade from people's memories, for everyone to feel motivated to coolly look at the facts and make a consider decision. Let's put it this way, if we were having the referendum today, I'd put my house on us leaving Europe, and there's no way I would have been saying that pre this crisis.
The extra costs will be offset by having to provide less other services. Less on education, less on security, less on child welfare costs, less on infrastructure. Across the board except for health and related health costs, old people cost less.
Just for a minute, instead of listening to the media, think about how little the older generation costs in comparison the the bulk of birth to retirement age population.
Now admittedly, the cost of housing in this country squews things, but an overall falling population will benefit that too.
We are being sold a lie to ensure that the people who sell things, don't lose out.
Old people cost the state quite a bit if they have no savings of their own and need to be sheltered, fed and nursed.
Meanwhile, the shrinking younger population will be generating fewer taxes, buying fewer things (destroying businesses), working harder to get by and sending their parents to retirement homes ... but of course there will not be enough young staff to look after them all.
Old people cost the state quite a bit if they have no savings of their own and need to be sheltered, fed and nursed.
Meanwhile, the shrinking younger population will be generating fewer taxes, buying fewer things (destroying businesses), working harder to get by and sending their parents to retirement homes ... but of course there will not be enough young staff to look after them all.
Still no reason to allow the migrants into this country.
We'll look after the elderly one way or another without migration.
Migration is just a pyramid scheme, and I hope I'm not around when it collapses.
Old people cost the state quite a bit if they have no savings of their own and need to be sheltered, fed and nursed.
Meanwhile, the shrinking younger population will be generating fewer taxes, buying fewer things (destroying businesses), working harder to get by and sending their parents to retirement homes ... but of course there will not be enough young staff to look after them all.
An incredibly short term social trend compared to human history, unsustainable long term by any measure.
I mean I uderstand the why, but to see that as "the norm" and to base policy on that is absurd.
Wouldn't it be a bit more sensible to base policy on the long term (thousands and thousands of years) of aging people living with family?
Though on the other hand that's a comparison between 2010 and 2060 and there's a few decades between the two which is the sort of omission which for me raises suspicions about what's being covered up and see conspiracy above :eek:...
Oh I don't ascribe to many conspiracy theories myself - the population data is sound and available and most 'conspiracists' tend to forget salient points like the importance of economic growth, which requires working people. Of course I believe the Royal Family are lizards, but then, who doesn't.
Which is a shame, as the UK already have the opt-outs to resist being swept up in this - and the situation will force the re-think of the free-movement laws that sit at the heart of many people's opposition to the EU. I am biaised, as I support reform of Europe rather than leaving it - moving back to our involvement being about trade (and some other useful things, such as shared scientific & research endeavours) but I do hope that people will not base their vote solely on this issue, but use it as a lever to get rid of the useless bureaucracy and (evidently) slothlike decision process - and return us to a place where Europe works together as a group of reasonable Westphalian nations.
You're living in a dream world.
If this situation hasn't taught you just how corrupt, undemocratic, incompetent and dictatorial this organisation is then I guess nothing will.
This situation has shown how countries with a vested interest can override the will of sovereign nations.
How EU rules and laws and processes can be thrown out of the window in order to pursue an agenda.
This whole issue has shown how fundamentally impractical and self-serving this organisation and those invested in it are.
You think this is an opportunity for reform? Get real!
The only reforms that will ever come about are those that suit the self-serving ideologues who are using the EU as their own private empire. Meaningful reform in this organisation is utterly impossible, because it would mean undermining the organisation itself and the powers that the imperialist Eurocrats use to get their own way.
You think these corrupt power-mongers are going to vote to end their own gravy train? To hand powers back to the governments and peoples they can currently dominate via the EU?
If they're not even willing to consider meaningful reforms when one of its biggest contributors, its biggest economies, a country with the 3rd highest (and still increasing) population, is threatening to leave the organisation, then under what circumstances do you think they will?
This is probably the only opportunity the British people will get to have a proper, democratic vote concerning our relationship with the EU for decades, if ever again.
Decades more for this organisation and its members to run roughshod over this country and its people. Decades more for millions of people to flood into the country without restriction. Decades more for treacherous politicians to sign away the last vestiges of our autonomy, including that precious opt-out.
Time to stop dreaming of what this organisation could be and wake up to what it really is and always will be.
Exactly. That's why I'm worried too, because when emotions are this stirred facts get lost in the noise, and I've a feeling that what's happening right now won't be sorted out quickly. Before we know it we'll be asked if we're in or out of Europe, and there won't be enough time for this to fade from people's memories, for everyone to feel motivated to coolly look at the facts and make a consider decision. Let's put it this way, if we were having the referendum today, I'd put my house on us leaving Europe, and there's no way I would have been saying that pre this crisis.
Yes, that is a worry. Although the polls are still close and I hope that enough people can see past the immediate emotional effect and think about the future well-being of the UK.
If this situation hasn't taught you just how corrupt, undemocratic, incompetent and dictatorial this organisation is then I guess nothing will.
This situation has shown how countries with a vested interest can override the will of sovereign nations.
How EU rules and laws and processes can be thrown out of the window in order to pursue an agenda.
This whole issue has shown how fundamentally impractical and self-serving this organisation and those invested in it are.
You think this is an opportunity for reform? Get real!
The only reforms that will ever come about are those that suit the self-serving ideologues who are using the EU as their own private empire. Meaningful reform in this organisation is utterly impossible, because it would mean undermining the organisation itself and the powers that the imperialist Eurocrats use to get their own way.
You think these corrupt power-mongers are going to vote to end their own gravy train? To hand powers back to the governments and peoples they can currently dominate via the EU?
If they're not even willing to consider meaningful reforms when one of its biggest contributors, its biggest economies, a country with the 3rd highest (and still increasing) population, is threatening to leave the organisation, then under what circumstances do you think they will?
This is probably the only opportunity the British people will get to have a proper, democratic vote concerning our relationship with the EU for decades, if ever again.
Decades more for this organisation and its members to run roughshod over this country and its people. Decades more for millions of people to flood into the country without restriction. Decades more for treacherous politicians to sign away the last vestiges of our autonomy, including that precious opt-out.
Time to stop dreaming of what this organisation could be and wake up to what it really is and always will be.
Let me offer a word of advice - when someone says they have yet to make up their mind, starting your pitch with 'You're living in a dream world' isn't going to endear them to your arguments.
Let me offer a word of advice - when someone says they have yet to make up their mind, starting your pitch with 'You're living in a dream world' isn't going to endear them to your arguments.
Which you then followed with another post to another poster which undermined any possibility that you have yet to make your mind up.
Agreeing with them it would be bad if people voted out at this present time based on actual events, rather than theory about what events would happen in the future.
Which you then followed with another post to another poster which undermined any possibility that you have yet to make your mind up.
Agreeing with them it would be bad if people voted out at this present time based on actual events, rather than theory about what events would happen in the future.
No, what I said was that people should decide based on hard information and not be influenced by emotional responses to the current situation.
I support the EU I voted to join 40 years ago - not the one we have now. If we can return to the economic relationships (and other links, like research, science and cultural) then I will be happy to stay. If the opposition can persuade me with hard facts that isn't possible and the UK will be better off leaving, then I will vote the other way. I am no more interested in emotive arguments on this than I was in 1975.
Yes, that is a worry. Although the polls are still close and I hope that enough people can see past the immediate emotional effect and think about the future well-being of the UK.
You have to wonder why Osborne's cosying up to China though.
Six-year high for asylum claims as more than 4,300 refugees reached Britain in a single month The number of migrants claiming asylum in Britain has hit the highest total for more than six years, an analysis showed yesterday.
There were 4,305 applications in July, more than in any month since figures began to be compiled in 2009.
Comments
I don't think most Pakistanis and Bangladeshis could pass as Syrians though.
Which is the part that worries me - we should base our choice on hard information about what either action will mean for the UK, now and in the future. I am not sure I trust either of the campaigns to give that information or the media to report it responsibly, even if they do.
LIVE: Far-right EDL rally against alleged ‘grooming gangs’ in Colchester
Far-right supporters of ‘anti-Islamist’ group the English Defence League (EDL) are expected to rally against further immigration and so-called ‘grooming gangs’ into the UK in the city Colchester, Saturday.
The EDL will be protesting against the alleged increase in the number of ‘grooming gangs‘ or underage prostitution rings in the Colchester areas. EDL members will hold speeches, while anti-fascist demonstrators are expected to infiltrate the rally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5J8eDZB5U8
A lorry driver has revealed how he called 999 after hearing a strange 'banging' coming from a tanker at a motorway service station - before 14 suspected illegal immigrants were found hiding inside it.
Scott McCrone, 44, had stopped off at Gaydon Service Station in Warwickshire on Tuesday for an afternoon break when he noticed a loud, repetitive sound coming from a lorry parked next to him.
He initially thought a herd of cows or other animals may be responsible, but the noise was soon joined by shouting. The truck's Spanish driver was inside the building having a Burger King.
When the driver returned to his vehicle, Mr McCrone - who had decided to hang around next to the lorry - approached the man and told him: 'There are people in there, you can hear banging'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249934/Lorry-driver-reveals-called-police-hearing-banging-tanker-M40-services-14-suspected-illegal-immigrants-hiding-inside.html
Greece is one of the main routes for migrants making the journey into Europe.
The island of Lesbos, only a few miles from the Turkish coast, has seen an influx of nearly 200,000 refugees since the spring.
Jim Muir asked the commander of the Greek coastguard on Lesbos, Antonios Sofiadelis, why so many are dying on a short crossing that should be simple and safe.
video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34368226
Well said.
I know you're not saying this but it'd Be nice if we could trade our ignorants for their intelligents.
The extra costs will be offset by having to provide less other services. Less on education, less on security, less on child welfare costs, less on infrastructure. Across the board except for health and related health costs, old people cost less.
Just for a minute, instead of listening to the media, think about how little the older generation costs in comparison the the bulk of birth to retirement age population.
Now admittedly, the cost of housing in this country squews things, but an overall falling population will benefit that too.
We are being sold a lie to ensure that the people who sell things, don't lose out.
Interestingly Ireland has the highest birth rate in the EU too (with the UK not far behind) and Germany has the lowest.
http://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=25&r=eu&l=en
Exactly. That's why I'm worried too, because when emotions are this stirred facts get lost in the noise, and I've a feeling that what's happening right now won't be sorted out quickly. Before we know it we'll be asked if we're in or out of Europe, and there won't be enough time for this to fade from people's memories, for everyone to feel motivated to coolly look at the facts and make a consider decision. Let's put it this way, if we were having the referendum today, I'd put my house on us leaving Europe, and there's no way I would have been saying that pre this crisis.
Old people cost the state quite a bit if they have no savings of their own and need to be sheltered, fed and nursed.
Meanwhile, the shrinking younger population will be generating fewer taxes, buying fewer things (destroying businesses), working harder to get by and sending their parents to retirement homes ... but of course there will not be enough young staff to look after them all.
Still no reason to allow the migrants into this country.
We'll look after the elderly one way or another without migration.
Migration is just a pyramid scheme, and I hope I'm not around when it collapses.
An incredibly short term social trend compared to human history, unsustainable long term by any measure.
I mean I uderstand the why, but to see that as "the norm" and to base policy on that is absurd.
Wouldn't it be a bit more sensible to base policy on the long term (thousands and thousands of years) of aging people living with family?
Oh I don't ascribe to many conspiracy theories myself - the population data is sound and available and most 'conspiracists' tend to forget salient points like the importance of economic growth, which requires working people. Of course I believe the Royal Family are lizards, but then, who doesn't.
You're living in a dream world.
If this situation hasn't taught you just how corrupt, undemocratic, incompetent and dictatorial this organisation is then I guess nothing will.
This situation has shown how countries with a vested interest can override the will of sovereign nations.
How EU rules and laws and processes can be thrown out of the window in order to pursue an agenda.
This whole issue has shown how fundamentally impractical and self-serving this organisation and those invested in it are.
You think this is an opportunity for reform? Get real!
The only reforms that will ever come about are those that suit the self-serving ideologues who are using the EU as their own private empire. Meaningful reform in this organisation is utterly impossible, because it would mean undermining the organisation itself and the powers that the imperialist Eurocrats use to get their own way.
You think these corrupt power-mongers are going to vote to end their own gravy train? To hand powers back to the governments and peoples they can currently dominate via the EU?
If they're not even willing to consider meaningful reforms when one of its biggest contributors, its biggest economies, a country with the 3rd highest (and still increasing) population, is threatening to leave the organisation, then under what circumstances do you think they will?
This is probably the only opportunity the British people will get to have a proper, democratic vote concerning our relationship with the EU for decades, if ever again.
Decades more for this organisation and its members to run roughshod over this country and its people. Decades more for millions of people to flood into the country without restriction. Decades more for treacherous politicians to sign away the last vestiges of our autonomy, including that precious opt-out.
Time to stop dreaming of what this organisation could be and wake up to what it really is and always will be.
Yes, that is a worry. Although the polls are still close and I hope that enough people can see past the immediate emotional effect and think about the future well-being of the UK.
Let me offer a word of advice - when someone says they have yet to make up their mind, starting your pitch with 'You're living in a dream world' isn't going to endear them to your arguments.
Which you then followed with another post to another poster which undermined any possibility that you have yet to make your mind up.
Agreeing with them it would be bad if people voted out at this present time based on actual events, rather than theory about what events would happen in the future.
No, what I said was that people should decide based on hard information and not be influenced by emotional responses to the current situation.
I support the EU I voted to join 40 years ago - not the one we have now. If we can return to the economic relationships (and other links, like research, science and cultural) then I will be happy to stay. If the opposition can persuade me with hard facts that isn't possible and the UK will be better off leaving, then I will vote the other way. I am no more interested in emotive arguments on this than I was in 1975.
You have to wonder why Osborne's cosying up to China though.
This should satisfy those who think we should be taking in the "jungle"
Because we clearly are
I think they would be mad not to look for new partners in case the 'Out' campaign wins - have to take a long view.
It's the next superpower now that the USA are in decline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppVaNPIbWYA