English and French clubs threaten to pull out of Heineken Cup Rugby
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From RTE Ireland...
Top clubs in England and France are threatening to quit the Heineken Cup and organise a rival competition as they believe the current format is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.
Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven Heineken Cups between them, with Leinster winning three of the last four.
Their rivals in England and France believe that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the RaboDirect Pro12 season.
Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Guardian: "Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.
"The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.
"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling.
"We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month.
"Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit-based - the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."
The English and French sides believe no more than six Pro12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides who currently qualify automatically.
"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro12," McCafferty added.
"It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying.
"Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly-formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup."
McCafferty said he was not prepared to do anything to damage the Aviva Premiership in order to change the qualification system for the Heineken Cup, as the Premiership accounts for 80% of revenues compared to 20% from Europe.
"ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are," he said.
"If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough."
ERC has planned talks for September on the issue.
"We have held meetings with all our shareholders and asked them to draw up proposals which will be considered at next month's meeting," said a spokesman.
"Notice was served by the French and English clubs and the French Rugby Federation at the beginning of June and it was agreed at a board meeting a few days afterwards that we would have a workshop in September after holding briefings with everyone.
"We do not want to enter a war of words with Premiership Rugby, but we have been working away in the background and we are in the second phase of the consultation process."
You can see why French and English are getting quiet upset, the teams have been dominated by Irish clubs over the past 7 years in which either Munster or Leinster have won it 5 times. I think both the English and French should look at themselves and not put down the Pro 12, the Pro 12 is now in my estimation is some way ahead of both the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.
The Pro 12 (Celtic league) when it started was sniggered at by both the French and English rugby authority's, they must be shocked and somewhat jealous of the success of the league which also has allowed Italian teams in which will eventually lead to an improvement in European rugby as a whole. I think it is now somewhat rich coming from France and England to now say Pro 12 teams have an unfair advantage, it is a knock-out competition where the best team no matter what league will eventually win.
Top clubs in England and France are threatening to quit the Heineken Cup and organise a rival competition as they believe the current format is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.
Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven Heineken Cups between them, with Leinster winning three of the last four.
Their rivals in England and France believe that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the RaboDirect Pro12 season.
Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Guardian: "Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.
"The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.
"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling.
"We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month.
"Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit-based - the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."
The English and French sides believe no more than six Pro12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides who currently qualify automatically.
"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro12," McCafferty added.
"It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying.
"Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly-formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup."
McCafferty said he was not prepared to do anything to damage the Aviva Premiership in order to change the qualification system for the Heineken Cup, as the Premiership accounts for 80% of revenues compared to 20% from Europe.
"ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are," he said.
"If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough."
ERC has planned talks for September on the issue.
"We have held meetings with all our shareholders and asked them to draw up proposals which will be considered at next month's meeting," said a spokesman.
"Notice was served by the French and English clubs and the French Rugby Federation at the beginning of June and it was agreed at a board meeting a few days afterwards that we would have a workshop in September after holding briefings with everyone.
"We do not want to enter a war of words with Premiership Rugby, but we have been working away in the background and we are in the second phase of the consultation process."
You can see why French and English are getting quiet upset, the teams have been dominated by Irish clubs over the past 7 years in which either Munster or Leinster have won it 5 times. I think both the English and French should look at themselves and not put down the Pro 12, the Pro 12 is now in my estimation is some way ahead of both the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.
The Pro 12 (Celtic league) when it started was sniggered at by both the French and English rugby authority's, they must be shocked and somewhat jealous of the success of the league which also has allowed Italian teams in which will eventually lead to an improvement in European rugby as a whole. I think it is now somewhat rich coming from France and England to now say Pro 12 teams have an unfair advantage, it is a knock-out competition where the best team no matter what league will eventually win.
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Comments
As ever, money seems to be the motiviation rather than sporting achievement.
Relegation doesn't come into it at all in the Pro 12 and finishing position only for the Irish and Welsh ( the best 3 of their 4 quallify) although not if they then get a 4th place by winning the Heiniken Cup as is tending to happen with the Irish.
Finishing position ( top 4 ) mattering for the Pro 12 finals is a bit of a side ussue since it's the Heiniken Cup that matters and that they clearly concentrate their resources.
And relegation doesn't suit the Pro 12. There are no next in line clubs being held back. 12 clubs works and with one league of 12.
However, the English and French league systems and qualification systems work too and most certainly their league systems should have relegation. So they have a much more full on domestic system not just re relegation, but to get these Heiniken places..
Currently the 24 qualifiers are 6 English, 6 French, 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian clubs plus the Heiniken and Amlin Challenge Cup winners ( or the next in line from their country ) with a limit of 7 English or French clubs.
I do understand the issues with automatic entry to the Heiniken Cup for both Scottish and both Italian clubs and possible entry for the 4th Irish or Wesh club irrespective of their league position.
What I would thus change is to have home and away play-offs between the bottom two "qualifiers" from the Pro 12 league and the two next in line English and French teams witth no restriction on number of participating teams from one country. The Pro 12 can determine how they order Heinkien and Amlin Cup triumphs and league position, but they give up 2 places to play-offs so you can't have automatic full quotas.
This exactly shows how the competition actually tends to favour English and French rugby by allowing too many automatic teams in. To keep European rugby growing in each country it is vital to keep automatic entry per country, the heineken cup is by far the best club competition in the world.
It has to be realised too that the Pro12 does not necessarily need the involvement of English and French clubs to be a success, the pro 12 is actually flourishing with broadcast partners in all participating countries and would not be affected by any actions of the English and French authorities.
"The Heineken Cup, under its current contract, has another season to run, and that will be the end of it" - Marc Watson
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2012/0913/337508-bt-vision-boss-promises-dazzling-new-tournament/
im a leinster fan and when im watching the heineken cup im always hoping we meet munster ulster or the ospreys,so the frogs are no loss too me
Things are flourishing and they don't like it!
Put it this way.
It is mid march you have a European Quarter final coming up
In England you also are in the bottom three, bad league form during the internationals, You are going to play another bottom three club this week and the Quarter final next. You really need your best players both weeks,
Your a celtic league side. bottom three who cares you will not get relegated and be baa in Europe next year. This week will be the fringe first teamers. Next week in the European game it is the big guns, nice and fresh.
England and French teams are bad loosers......Ulster will win it this year as they now have some depth with Pinnear and friends from the Springboks and Afoa and his mates from the all blacks joining the team. Also the addition of a top notch SA coach....well worth a few bob in the betting at odds of 12/1.
Nail on the head.
far easier to call the English and french bad losers from the comfort of a non pressure league.
But it's always been this way. The English allocation has always come from a league with relegation. To suddenly complain about it now after what, 15 years of competition, is a bit suspish.
Well to be fair it isnt how it has always been the celtic league didnt come in till early 2000 when Wales then regionalised.
Ireland get the best deal out of it I think. I certainly dont think it is fair on teams from France or England who are required to play so many more key games in thier domestic leagues to qualify for Europe and stave off relagation.
A better system would be top 6 of all the domestic leagues qualify autamaticly with each participating country getting one spot to hand out as they feel fit.
Devil's advocate, but it's unfair to blame the Pro12's structure for the Premiership / Top14's shortcomings. Juggling European and domestic competition is what good squad management is all about. If the Premiership or Top14 wanted to become ringfenced leagues they could (say for example with a ERC-participating team exempt from relegation) -- After all, if they're willing to attempt to exclude teams like London Welsh or Cornish Pirates from taking their rightful place in the Premiership on some flimsy ground issues, I'm sure they could introduce some kind of other legislation to keep their teams happy.
As for playing more games, the Aviva and the Pro12 are exactly the same size now.
Incidentally:
http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/169973.html
It's comments like the BIB that really piss me off- how exactly are the welsh, irish & scottish playing in a non pressure league :rolleyes:
Ask the teams from Ireland, Wales, Italy and Scotland what they would do if they were not in the running to win the rabo title with a Rabo game the week before a hienikan cup qurter final?
they would all rest players as there is no risk.
Ask a prem team or a top 14 team who are fighting for a place next year or who are in the relagation zone and they would have to make a far more difficult decision.
Take away relagation and add qualifiying and you make a league far tougher.
Oh come on, the teams fighting relegation in the premiership are unlikely to be in the heineken cup anyway
Closest we seem to have got was Sarries making the HC semis in 2007/8 and finishing 8th in the Premiership, a full 40 points ahead of Leeds.
They do have to fight to qualify........which the celtic teams do not.
The trouble is, there is so much anti English sentiment that not many can see the point of view of the English.
Certainly not that fans of the Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams who get Euro rugby every year without any of the fight the English and French teams go through.
Not being rude, but tell that to fans of the Newport Gwent Dragons (i.e. me!) and Connacht.
what about the 12 teams from engalnd a france that dont make it?