My understanding was that he sacrified himself so the younger ones would surrender and not try to shoot their way to certain death
That's how I saw it too. I thought it was excellent. I was shocked that Greta was actually executed. What shocked me the most was the hate of Jews, not by the Germans, but by the Ukrainians!!
The women in Berlin were raped by Russians who captured Berlin . They took any food they had and let children starve. I know this from someone who lived through the horror of that awful war
The sentance "wie oft " was then used by women when speaking to each other at the rubble collection . They all understood " how often ? " meant how often were you raped
In 1946 an estimated 4 % all babies born in Berilin had Russian fathers
It was hideous and disgusting and the Red Army acted like savages in eastern Germany in their treatment of women. But we have to remember the Wehrmacht acted even worse in Russia......20m soldiers and civilians dead tells it's own story.
I think Charly is the only one who emerged with her integrity and sanity fully intact. She tried hard to repent for her betrayal of Lilija and clearly had a conscience. I would say she was the best equipped one of the three survivors to cope with life after the war as she had no blood on her hands or any real reason to feel guilty.
I think Wilhelm though was not in a particularly good place and he had the look of someone who would be haunted by bad memories for years to come and perhaps not able to move on.
A very moving ending indeed. They were a generation of young people who were unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong place and at the wrong time.
I think Charly is the only one who emerged with her integrity and sanity fully intact. She tried hard to repent for her betrayal of Lilija and clearly had a conscience. I would say she was the best equipped one of the three survivors to cope with life after the war as she had no blood on her hands or any real reason to feel guilty.
I think Wilhelm though was not in a particularly good place and he had the look of someone who would be haunted by bad memories for years to come and perhaps not able to move on.
A very moving ending indeed. They were a generation of young people who were unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong place and at the wrong time.
Yes - even though they were fictional its a pity the producers couldn't somehow have invented an after story for them as it ended so abruptly (i.e. just a name and date of death). Did Charly and Wilhelm marry i.e. they saved each other) - methinks they quite possibly could have done - and what did Viktor do (emigrate to New York?).
Yes - even though they were fictional its a pity the producers couldn't somehow have invented an after story for them as it ended so abruptly (i.e. just a name and date of death). Did Charly and Wilhelm marry i.e. they saved each other) - methinks they quite possibly could have done - and what did Viktor do (emigrate to New York?).
Yes, it would be really nice if we saw what happened to the three.
I think Charly would have been fine after the war. She looked rattled by the experience but was not a broken woman, and still had her humanity and integrity intact.
Wilhelm looked very down though and as if the war had taken it's toll on him. But we know that he is narrating the story many years later so obviously made a life for himself.
Viktor would probably have emigrated to the US or Israel as there was nothing in Germany for him. I thought the reunion was slightly awkward from his point of view because it was Charly and Wilhelm's people who had wiped out his own, but he was still magnanimous enough to share a drink with them.
Thanks for the comments on Friedhelm.
I thought that the actor who played Wilhelm conveyed so much of how he had changed in that final scene with barely uttering a word.
That's how I saw it too. I thought it was excellent. I was shocked that Greta was actually executed. What shocked me the most was the hate of Jews, not by the Germans, but by the Ukrainians!!
Apparently the worst and cruellest guards in the camps were Ukrainians.
I worked with a Ukrainian lady who was very P.C. concerning ethnics but was scathing about Jews.
Fantastic last episode. I couldn't believe it when Wilhelm disappeared after Charly told him she loved him, I wanted to slap him! Initially Friedhelm's suicide-by-soldier puzzled me, but perhaps he just couldn't live with what he had become. I liked the little touch at the end, showing that Wilhelm was still alive - it's nice to think the war didn't break him and that he managed to go on and live a normal life.
It was hideous and disgusting and the Red Army acted like savages in eastern Germany in their treatment of women. But we have to remember the Wehrmacht acted even worse in Russia......20m soldiers and civilians dead tells it's own story.
No doubt or question that the Wehrmacht were dreadful and vile
But I was replying to your post that stated that the Russians seldom killed civilians . That is simply not the case . Berlin is a case in hand . Total destruction, rape , starvation and killings at the hands of Russians was stopped only when the US army arrived
Fantastic last episode. I couldn't believe it when Wilhelm disappeared after Charly told him she loved him, I wanted to slap him! Initially Friedhelm's suicide-by-soldier puzzled me, but perhaps he just couldn't live with what he had become. I liked the little touch at the end, showing that Wilhelm was still alive - it's nice to think the war didn't break him and that he managed to go on and live a normal life.
I think the war knocked all the life out of Friedhelm. He had become a killing machine and he probably felt disillusioned and as if there was no way back to normal life for him.
Wilhelm was a bit more pragmatic and grounded (he understood by the middle of 1943 he was fighting for a lost cause and a for a corrupt ideology) and he had enough of a survivor's instinct to survive the war.
I think the war knocked all the life out of Friedhelm. He had become a killing machine and he probably felt disillusioned and as if there was no way back to normal life for him.
Yes, I have just remembered the scene where he shoots the boy who is running away in the field. I think that sums up what he has become.
It was hideous and disgusting and the Red Army acted like savages in eastern Germany in their treatment of women. But we have to remember the Wehrmacht acted even worse in Russia......20m soldiers and civilians dead tells it's own story.
A Woman in Berlin is worth a read.
As for Russia, Stalin had no regard for human life. Most of his offices were killed before and during the war, that's why the Germans found it easy to walk in and invade Russia. It didn't matter to Stalin how many soldiers died, he kept on sending more....
Stalin couldn't even be bothered to save his son from Sachenhausen concentration camp. (the same one 'Victor' had been to in the series)
Some say, however, that German military command suggested Josef Stalin could get his son back in exchange for Field-Marshal Friedrich Paulus, captured after the battle of Stalingrad.
“I will not exchange a soldier for a field marshal,” Stalin reportedly replied.
Excellent series, if a bit contrived at times. Thought the ending was very moving.
Kept looking at the actress that played Charly thinking that I'd seen her in something before - but actually she's the spitting image of Emma Watson. Could quite easily play her older sister in something.
I thought she looked the spitting image of actress Charlotte Salt (who played Dr Sam Nicholls in Casualty) http://m.imdb.com/name/nm1083395/
I really enjoyed watching this series as it was interesting watching things from a German/Nazi perspective.
The debate programme after the last episode was also interesting. I agree that not everything in the drama was very historically accurate e.g I couldn't have imagine the 4 young Germans, who would have probably been indoctrinated by the Hitler Youth, hanging out so openly with Victor, a German Jewish man. However, I do think there is still this view out there that almost everything the allied forces did during the war was good and everything the Nazi following Germans did was bad.
The Second World War was a horrible, hard time and affected everyone, no matter which side they were on. Like the programme showed, there would have probably been many Nazi soldiers who were disillusioned by Nazism during the war and didn't want to fight anymore or believed what they were doing was right. In the same way there may have been Allied soldiers who committed horrific acts when liberating the Nazi occupied countries (e.g Russian soldiers raping German women)
I guess the main thing I got from watching this show is that not everything is black & white. We can't keep saying Allies = good, Germans = bad anymore. War and history is much more complex than that.
A brilliantly acted and well scripted War Drama.
Truly realistic and compulsive viewing. This German production deserves to be up for some international awards.
I really enjoyed watching this series as it was interesting watching things from a German/Nazi perspective.
The debate programme after the last episode was also interesting. I agree that not everything in the drama was very historically accurate e.g I couldn't have imagine the 4 young Germans, who would have probably been indoctrinated by the Hitler Youth, hanging out so openly with Victor, a German Jewish man. However, I do think there is still this view out there that almost everything the allied forces did during the war was good and everything the Nazi following Germans did was bad.
The Second World War was a horrible, hard time and affected everyone, no matter which side they were on. Like the programme showed, there would have probably been many Nazi soldiers who were disillusioned by Nazism during the war and didn't want to fight anymore or believed what they were doing was right. In the same way there may have been Allied soldiers who committed horrific acts when liberating the Nazi occupied countries (e.g Russian soldiers raping German women)
I guess the main thing I got from watching this show is that not everything is black & white. We can't keep saying Allies = good, Germans = bad anymore. War and history is much more complex than that.
Indeed, it shows how those on the German side were just as human as those on the Allied side. Perhaps a bit more arrogant and sure of themselves certainly.....none of them seemed to question the right of Germany to invade Russia initially and whether an aggressive war of annihilation against them was in any way justified. They had of course been bombarded with eight years of propaganda at this point telling them they were the 'master race'.
They were all complex characters though, a mixture of good and bad like every human being and we saw them all wrestle with their conscience at one point or another
Indeed, it shows how those on the German side were just as human as those on the Allied side. Perhaps a bit more arrogant and sure of themselves certainly.....none of them seemed to question the right of Germany to invade Russia initially and whether an aggressive war of annihilation against them was in any way justified. They had of course been bombarded with eight years of propaganda at this point telling them they were the 'master race'.
They were all complex characters though, a mixture of good and bad like every human being and we saw them all wrestle with their conscience at one point or another
I think this is the most important fact when trying to make sense of some of the cruelty inflicted by the Germans. they not only praised Germans for being the superior race they dehumanised the Jews etc.
They were Rats, vermin, anything but human. you can kill vermin with a clear conscience
I remember Stepehen Fry talking about a book full of letters German officers sent home from the concentration camps. they are chilling, they talk about doing their job so matter of factly with pride.
eg. a typical letter would be, sorry to hear the kids have had a cold the last few weeks, tell them it will soon clear up and don't forget to be good at school, he would then mention, am so proud of the men, we had extra trains sent in this week and all the men got through the extra work without one little moan.they really are a good bunch of men.
bye
What's so shocking, they are basically normal people.
I do know it didn't work on all the guards though, many relied heavily on drink.
I think this is the most important fact when trying to make sense of some of the cruelty inflicted by the Germans. they not only praised Germans for being the superior race they dehumanised the Jews etc.
They were Rats, vermin, anything but human. you can kill vermin with a clear conscience
I remember Stepehen Fry talking about a book full of letters German officers sent home from the concentration camps. they are chilling, they talk about doing their job so matter of factly with pride.
eg. a typical letter would be, sorry to hear the kids have had a cold the last few weeks, tell them it will soon clear up and don't forget to be good at school, he would then mention, am so proud of the men, we had extra trains sent in this week and all the men got through the extra work without one little moan.they really are a good bunch of men.
bye
What's so shocking, they are basically normal people.
I do know it didn't work on all the guards though, many relied heavily on drink.
Historians have pointed out that Nazism was the most negative and morally bankrupt ideology in history. It had hate and destruction at it's core : it was all about revenge and getting even with Germany's enemies and asserting their absolute right to be the master race, lording it over the many millions of "sub-humans" in Europe.
Such an insane and evil ideology inevitably led to insane and evil acts. The Holocaust was an act of madness. Germany was fighting a world war and yet was diverting huge resources to the extermination of a race who posed absolutely no threat to them. Crackpot theories became quite normal.......we heard Charly's nurse friend Hildegard saying to her "The Jews are out to destroy us" as if this was an accepted and verifiable fact and not a lunatic theory fermented by cranks like Hitler and Himmler
Historians have pointed out that Nazism was the most negative and morally bankrupt ideology in history. It had hate and destruction at it's core : it was all about revenge and getting even with Germany's enemies and asserting their absolute right to be the master race, lording it over the many millions of "sub-humans" in Europe.
Such an insane and evil ideology inevitably led to insane and evil acts. The Holocaust was an act of madness. Germany was fighting a world war and yet was diverting huge resources to the extermination of a race who posed absolutely no threat to them. Crackpot theories became quite normal.......we heard Charly's nurse friend Hildegard saying to her "The Jews are out to destroy us" as if this was an accepted and verifiable fact and not a lunatic theory fermented by cranks like Hitler and Himmler
Yes, i think what's also forgotten is how well extreme groups flourish in politics in times of depression, still applies today. they have to find somebody to point the finger at for all their suffering. rhetoric can easily influence people when they are desperate. so it would be naive to think this was all about bad Germans.
There was also a very subtle remark in one of the episodes when 2 soldiers are talking, a criticism of Hitler is answered with, my father hasn't worked in years, since Hitler came to power he has had a job.
How did Lilja become an officer in the Red Army ? That seemed farfetched but overall a very good series and well worth watching if only for seeing the other sides view
Comments
Also I think the war destroyed him mentally, he was effectively a broken man, deeply disillusioned and beyond caring about living.
It was hideous and disgusting and the Red Army acted like savages in eastern Germany in their treatment of women. But we have to remember the Wehrmacht acted even worse in Russia......20m soldiers and civilians dead tells it's own story.
I think Charly is the only one who emerged with her integrity and sanity fully intact. She tried hard to repent for her betrayal of Lilija and clearly had a conscience. I would say she was the best equipped one of the three survivors to cope with life after the war as she had no blood on her hands or any real reason to feel guilty.
I think Wilhelm though was not in a particularly good place and he had the look of someone who would be haunted by bad memories for years to come and perhaps not able to move on.
A very moving ending indeed. They were a generation of young people who were unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong place and at the wrong time.
Yes - even though they were fictional its a pity the producers couldn't somehow have invented an after story for them as it ended so abruptly (i.e. just a name and date of death). Did Charly and Wilhelm marry i.e. they saved each other) - methinks they quite possibly could have done - and what did Viktor do (emigrate to New York?).
Yes, it would be really nice if we saw what happened to the three.
I think Charly would have been fine after the war. She looked rattled by the experience but was not a broken woman, and still had her humanity and integrity intact.
Wilhelm looked very down though and as if the war had taken it's toll on him. But we know that he is narrating the story many years later so obviously made a life for himself.
Viktor would probably have emigrated to the US or Israel as there was nothing in Germany for him. I thought the reunion was slightly awkward from his point of view because it was Charly and Wilhelm's people who had wiped out his own, but he was still magnanimous enough to share a drink with them.
I thought that the actor who played Wilhelm conveyed so much of how he had changed in that final scene with barely uttering a word.
Apparently the worst and cruellest guards in the camps were Ukrainians.
I worked with a Ukrainian lady who was very P.C. concerning ethnics but was scathing about Jews.
No doubt or question that the Wehrmacht were dreadful and vile
But I was replying to your post that stated that the Russians seldom killed civilians . That is simply not the case . Berlin is a case in hand . Total destruction, rape , starvation and killings at the hands of Russians was stopped only when the US army arrived
I think the war knocked all the life out of Friedhelm. He had become a killing machine and he probably felt disillusioned and as if there was no way back to normal life for him.
Wilhelm was a bit more pragmatic and grounded (he understood by the middle of 1943 he was fighting for a lost cause and a for a corrupt ideology) and he had enough of a survivor's instinct to survive the war.
A Woman in Berlin is worth a read.
As for Russia, Stalin had no regard for human life. Most of his offices were killed before and during the war, that's why the Germans found it easy to walk in and invade Russia. It didn't matter to Stalin how many soldiers died, he kept on sending more....
Stalin couldn't even be bothered to save his son from Sachenhausen concentration camp. (the same one 'Victor' had been to in the series)
Had I known some of the facts earlier, I'm not sure I would have watched the series.
The debate programme after the last episode was also interesting. I agree that not everything in the drama was very historically accurate e.g I couldn't have imagine the 4 young Germans, who would have probably been indoctrinated by the Hitler Youth, hanging out so openly with Victor, a German Jewish man. However, I do think there is still this view out there that almost everything the allied forces did during the war was good and everything the Nazi following Germans did was bad.
The Second World War was a horrible, hard time and affected everyone, no matter which side they were on. Like the programme showed, there would have probably been many Nazi soldiers who were disillusioned by Nazism during the war and didn't want to fight anymore or believed what they were doing was right. In the same way there may have been Allied soldiers who committed horrific acts when liberating the Nazi occupied countries (e.g Russian soldiers raping German women)
I guess the main thing I got from watching this show is that not everything is black & white. We can't keep saying Allies = good, Germans = bad anymore. War and history is much more complex than that.
Truly realistic and compulsive viewing. This German production deserves to be up for some international awards.
Indeed, it shows how those on the German side were just as human as those on the Allied side. Perhaps a bit more arrogant and sure of themselves certainly.....none of them seemed to question the right of Germany to invade Russia initially and whether an aggressive war of annihilation against them was in any way justified. They had of course been bombarded with eight years of propaganda at this point telling them they were the 'master race'.
They were all complex characters though, a mixture of good and bad like every human being and we saw them all wrestle with their conscience at one point or another
They were Rats, vermin, anything but human. you can kill vermin with a clear conscience
I remember Stepehen Fry talking about a book full of letters German officers sent home from the concentration camps. they are chilling, they talk about doing their job so matter of factly with pride.
eg. a typical letter would be, sorry to hear the kids have had a cold the last few weeks, tell them it will soon clear up and don't forget to be good at school, he would then mention, am so proud of the men, we had extra trains sent in this week and all the men got through the extra work without one little moan.they really are a good bunch of men.
bye
What's so shocking, they are basically normal people.
I do know it didn't work on all the guards though, many relied heavily on drink.
Historians have pointed out that Nazism was the most negative and morally bankrupt ideology in history. It had hate and destruction at it's core : it was all about revenge and getting even with Germany's enemies and asserting their absolute right to be the master race, lording it over the many millions of "sub-humans" in Europe.
Such an insane and evil ideology inevitably led to insane and evil acts. The Holocaust was an act of madness. Germany was fighting a world war and yet was diverting huge resources to the extermination of a race who posed absolutely no threat to them. Crackpot theories became quite normal.......we heard Charly's nurse friend Hildegard saying to her "The Jews are out to destroy us" as if this was an accepted and verifiable fact and not a lunatic theory fermented by cranks like Hitler and Himmler
There was also a very subtle remark in one of the episodes when 2 soldiers are talking, a criticism of Hitler is answered with, my father hasn't worked in years, since Hitler came to power he has had a job.