It's a strange kind of fake if you won't even fake a kiss.
So I think that the refusal to kiss works better for the defence than for the prosecution.
I have thought about this one quite a bit (well about 20 minutes anyway!) I think John James either can't bring himself to kiss her because he does still think of her as "sister", and he can't bring himself to force a kiss in public to keep the fans happy because he knows that if (or when depending on your opinion) it all comes out that it was a business arrangment all along he is going to look like the biggest hypocrite ever, and I think he genuinely hates that accusation.
He has defended himself quite vigorously when he has been accused of being a hypocrite over the magazine spreads etc. he has attempted to explain these away, but a public display of affection would be hard to explain if it is revealed that he never was attracted to her. when the fall out happens I am expecting him to say "of course I said I loved her....like a mate or a sister.... or you didn't realise that :rolleyes:"
In a nutshell I think John James cares more about himself than he does for Josie, and is quite happy to leave her looking like a bit of a numpty with his coldness towards her because he wants to preserve his own integrity!
Oh tis a reply to a hater. Put him truly in his place I say. I like discussing them, and I will continue to do so for a while. However if I didn't like them I wouldn't sent hundreds of tweets to them saying they're fake ect.:)
Mark said he hadn't seen anything to suggest anything otherwise to suggest they're not a couple, certainly a small heap of evidence the the defence:D
Oh right I missed the "hater". :eek::D
Yes you like discussing them and you continue to do so, and well done you, you have posted quite a lot over the last while, it obviously really interests you.
Im sure you will agree on here, that its just as valid for US to discuss them also - as it interests US - albeit from a different angle than yourself.
The reason I say that, is that I have seen a few comments posted by yourself in relation to folk down here, negative stuff. By all means come in and argue your point and join in with the banter.
But going away to another thread (upstairs) to tell how you have put someone here on ignore, and that you are going to "snap soon"...................totally confuses me, as you sound as if you are quite enjoying yourself in here, and you have been made very welcome by us all..........and wished Happy Birthday more than I could count!:)
In regard to your evidence - meh, well like that good time girl Mandy Rice Davies famous quote goes .........."he would, wouldnt he"..........:D
So I've watched through numerous videos of that day's events. None has a "smoking gun" moment, but I found them quite revealing . . . particularly the sub-duvet convos :eek:
Fact and context of day 48 events
For those who can't bring themselves to do the same , here is a brief description:
- John becomes increasingly paranoid that he's seen as leading Josie on, having talked with Ben and Dave that morning (at this point he's still clearly resisting Josie's desire for a romance/fauxmance)
- Josie becomes increasingly paranoid that she's made herself look a wally by having declared her feelings for a man who doesn't appear to reciprocate (recently reinforced by Laura's revelations)
- to assuage his conscience, John tries to broach the "leading on" subject by suggesting he moves beds (which they'd only started sharing 3 days earlier) . . . but clumsily makes a reference to S/C situation which plays right into Josie's paranoia (as the S figure in the comparison)
- Josie reacts by switching off emotional life support for John (as she had done successfully during crabeyegate) and ordering him out of her bed
- John briefs JJ that he never meant to hurt Josie and asks him to explain to her how he really felt, and then makes a run for the fire-escape
- Josie is sat on the smoking bench and shouts at John to "stop showing her up"
- John is persuaded back into the house by a mixture of Dave, JJ and production crew. The other HMs, led by Rachel, jump to conclusion that John fled because he lost his bottle about having to nominate . . . . whilst Josie, John and JJ keep quiet about the truth (though Ben susses it out before long)
- Josie implores John not to go into the DR to tell all, saying that everyone will assume he was running away from her affection (ie, her paranoia level has been further raised)
- they then get back under the duvet. John refers to having "had" the best relationship. John cries and Josie comforts him. John says he ran out not because he can't handle Josie's feelings, but because he can't handle Josie not talking to him. John acknowledges he can't handle unresolved issues (the man-child again!). He tries to persuade Josie to let him walk out, because he can't bear hurting her / can't bear to see her like this because of him. She blames her period again, lol. They make up and decide to leave bed arrangements unchanged. John says he won't talk about feelings again with Josie, or BB or the HMs . . . . as he can't talk properly until they leave the house and the cameras are gone. He can be just about heard saying I love you Jose, I really do or wtte.
Basis of analysis
Now to the analysis. What I've tried to do below is set out the thought process by which I've reached my own conclusion, with full transparency so that those who don't wish to follow the logic that I've used are free to divert onto their own analyses. For transparency, I should also point out that my thought process leading up to this day has 2 elements which may differ from the JJJAT fans:
i) I don't believe there was any serious romantic intent on John's part from day 5. That originated much later in the show imo
ii) The analysis of the Josie/Keeva/John triangle which I outlined on thread 2.
Having said that, I doubt any differences of view on these 2 elements are material to the below analysis of day 48.
For those following the trail of my argument over the last 2 threads, my original analysis suggested that John switched his strategy after day 42 (when Keeva left), but I now think the better view is that the switch didn't really take place until day 48 (and even then was in effect suspended until they left the house and could talk freely).
John James mindset
In reviewing the tapes and trying to evaluate what John is thinking and doing, I had 5 possibilities in mind (I'm not saying these are the only ones, but I see them as the most likely):
1. Because of his emotional dependence on Josie, her apparent willingness to sever links with him over the latest argument triggered the same flight response we saw from him previously during crabeyegate ("emotional blackmail on young boy")
2. He never seriously intended to leave. It was part of a battle of wills between him and Josie. She withdrew emotional life support, so he retaliated by almost (but not quite) abandoning her in an attempt to force her to re-engage with him ("child trying to get mother's attention")
3. They planned it together under the duvet and executed a charade for viewer drama ("captain drama").
4. He panicked because it was becoming ever clearer that Josie had strong feelings for him and he knew he couldn't reciprocate because he didn't feel that way about her ("guilt response"). By coming back into the house, he was resigned to his fate and proceeded with a fauxmance.
5. He couldn't resolve his internal conflicts: strongly-held principle that he would never start anything in an artificial house environment (and yet knowing that would hurt Josie) v not wishing to be seen to lead Josie on (and yet needing to be close to her due to emotional dependence) . . . leading to a flight response ("unresolved conflicts").
I believe (1) is definitely a major component in why he fled. (2) may well have been true also. (3) is not credible having watched the tapes. (4) - this is the only other credible alternative, but the sincerity with which he expressed his love for her and the fact that they largely did stick to his principle of no serious relationship in the house thereafter indicate to me this is not the correct analysis. (5) - I think this too is likely a part of it. So personally, my reading of the tapes is a combination of 1, 2 and 5. Nor is this inconsistent with the 2nd mikes off convo (day 51) when JJ looks much more relaxed (no longer recoiling), after reaching his day 48 accord with Josie for neither of them to discuss their feelings further until post-show. It's worth noting that after this day 48 understanding, not only did John relax more with her, but Josie stopped her pursuit of him via emotional blackmail etc.
Did John love Josie?
Of fundamental importance is the question whether his actions and words that day were consistent with someone who loved Josie (I know some will want to draw the distinction between loving and being in love, but personally I don't believe you have to be in love to have a genuine couple relationship so that isn't a line I'm going to stick on). Of greater significance for some perhaps, given his demonstrable immaturity (including sexual immaturity), might be distinguishing between love for a mother-companion and love for a girlfriend.
Having watched the tapes through, I'm personally convinced that (on day 48 at least) he loved Josie. He would have had to be one of Australia's finest actors for that not to be the case imo (his distress was palpable and genuine, almost desperate), and I just don't believe he has any great acting skill. What I see on the tapes is someone who is expressing a deep emotional love for Josie. I can't equate that to "fancying" Josie, it's something different. Possibly love for a mother figure or possibly love for a friend/girlfriend without the carnal element. My earlier posts described how I saw an unusual separation between John's sexual and emotional feelings (sex being a mechanical, superficial thing for him; by comparison with "real" emotional feelings - echoes of Salinger's Holden Caulfield in JJ in certain respects!!). And it also encompasses the protectiveness that an only child has for a single parent mother. So in summary I see these day 48 videos as evidence to support the view that John did love Josie.
Did Josie love John?
Where I've reached following day 48 analysis: IF Josie's feelings were genuine for him, then I think their relationship was real. What I mean by that is that I can see them staying together for a while as wound-mates, but will eventually split up as incompatible (probably she leaves him, if you asked me to put a bet on it).
Over the show I saw lots of contradictory evidence as to whether she loves him. To me, she seemed to put winning of the game ahead of her supposed love of him. And she seemed to be most attracted by a combination of "fit innit" and his money. But perhaps I'm expecting too much in the way of virtue from a zelebrity with a damaged upbringing and, so what if there's an excessive dose of selfishness built into their relationship. After all, she has to put up with his tirades and putdowns, so perhaps it evens itself out and the "woundmates" analysis again applies.
I think what's tipping me towards voting real is that I can't see the motivation for Josie to pursue a fauxmance so far into the show. As others have pointed out, it is often counter-productive and although she may not have realised it she had a strong claim on winning without Skippy. Yet on day 48 she's still battling away to get Skippy to go along with her fauxmance. Ok, she'd picked up from the leaky newbies during UC lair that JJJ were popular. And ok, maybe Endemol who seemed to be promoting soap opera BB this year had encouraged HMs to go for romance and Josie just got stuck on that page as the days went by . . . but it doesn't really ring true for me. By day 48, she didn't need to be going all out for John. And why was she getting so stressed at having made herself look an idiot by chasing a guy if it was all a tactic to help win the show . . . . or indeed take the risk she did with Keeva if she wasn't genuinely jealous. So, I think I have to put aside my reservation that she doesn't love in the selfless sense of the word that I'd use it but, in a woundmate context, yes she did love him and possibly in her case was "in love" with him.
Conclusion
So in conclusion, where I come out is closest to Mezzy10's analysis. Interested to hear what others on thread think and, in particular, Wee Tinkers as a staunch defender who thinks (as I used to) that the prosecution might find stronger evidence here. Of course, even if you accept my day 48 analysis, it doesn't necessarily follow that the relationship is real. Much could have changed subsequently and I don't personally think day 48 tells us much about whether Josie, who was clearly imo the initiator/promoter of the relationship, was conducting a romance or fauxmance.
I'm abroad at the moment, but will pick up on any responses on Friday latest.
wow. what an analysis thank you for so much time and effort on that.
It almost sounds as if you agree that JJJ are real:)
Hi Scrummy -
I finally followed the route of the Twit accounts you identified as fake.
This one - http://twitter.com/marie1654
@Josiestweetwow on the forum you lost many fans Because you spend all the time the holidays apart, they begin to think it's fake, sorry x
about 3 hours ago via web in reply to Josiestweet
Do you think these accounts have been set up by someone who was a reg on AT but fell out with peeps there for whatever reason, so is having a swipe at them really, by going on about the bliddy Christmas plans to Josie?
It seems to me that there are two separate streams to the Twit Wars - dreadful Bhatti (which I still think looks like 'let's all get some publicity' crap) and this other thing, which is not particularly aggressive towards Josie, but may be using her to rile other people.
Particularly when you take these into account from Marie:
@John____James josie and you spends christmas together or you go in australia?love u x billi is a prick
11:35 AM Dec 10th via web in reply to John____James @TheMinZz you should know better than me lol, but I suspect not (perfume, calendar, ok),plus they will do a series x
11:07 AM Dec 10th via web in reply to TheMinZz @TheMinZz lol generally six months after bb it going to calm down, you'll be able to enjoy your time with john lol x
10:40 AM Dec 10th via web in reply to TheMinZz @TheMinZz hi john spend christmas with you in Australia? XxX
10:27 AM Dec 10th via web in reply to TheMinZz
YES I'll find someones tweets when someone threatened to go on the AT I think it will be Marie:)
OBH you're so very clever:)
Looked throught the accounts and found this Morine0147
why you are angry when the people say that you are fake?it's the truth?it's funny you write girl friend, not girlfriend, Josie always says "boyfriend" but in one of these tweets it is written "best boy friend ever :-)", it's you who wrote this tweet on account of josie ?plus josie never uses the smiley ":-)" lol lol
I am 100% sure it was you(john) who posted it, I'll put it on JJJAT to see their reaction hihihi
OBH you're so very clever:)
Looked throught the accounts and found this Morine0147
why you are angry when the people say that you are fake?it's the truth?it's funny you write girl friend, not girlfriend, Josie always says "boyfriend" but in one of these tweets it is written "best boy friend ever :-)", it's you who wrote this tweet on account of josie ?plus josie never uses the smiley ":-)" lol lol
I am 100% sure it was you(john) who posted it, I'll put it on JJJAT to see their reaction hihihi
:cool:
Not that clever. It's just that when we gather court evidence from outside sources (everything that's not fact-finding or opinion of known posters following the trial) I tend to think about why that evidence exists at all, not just take it as a tick for one side or the other.
I think the Twit stuff has a place in the court record purely because, at some time in the future, scraps of it may turn out to be totally in keeping with the result - or real evidence we haven't deliberated on yet. A bit like someone getting a really peculiar prediction spot on.
But a chunk of the Tweet pile, while connecting by subject matter to the trial, is not that relevant because it has another agenda - in the case of the fake accounts more likely to be just stirring up internal AT doo-doo after some wise heads up there caught someone out.
However, if for instance we eventually discovered that the Bhatti attacks were an agreed attempt to keep 'fan wars' going and get some publicity, that would be relevant to the case as possible evidence of fakery.
I believe the Supreme Court stepped in before further submissions could be made on 'A JJJ is for life, not just for Christmas'.
But make sure you get us a cracking tree all the same, the court room has high ceilings.
Yeah, never mind. I had just got up and didn't expect to see that topic slap-bang in the middle of a BB forum, that's all. I was going to watch that episode tonight and was avoiding the Apprentice forum for that very reason. Oh well, I'll live
I have thought about this one quite a bit (well about 20 minutes anyway!) I think John James either can't bring himself to kiss her because he does still think of her as "sister", and he can't bring himself to force a kiss in public to keep the fans happy because he knows that if (or when depending on your opinion) it all comes out that it was a business arrangment all along he is going to look like the biggest hypocrite ever, and I think he genuinely hates that accusation.
He has defended himself quite vigorously when he has been accused of being a hypocrite over the magazine spreads etc. he has attempted to explain these away, but a public display of affection would be hard to explain if it is revealed that he never was attracted to her. when the fall out happens I am expecting him to say "of course I said I loved her....like a mate or a sister.... or you didn't realise that :rolleyes:"
In a nutshell I think John James cares more about himself than he does for Josie, and is quite happy to leave her looking like a bit of a numpty with his coldness towards her because he wants to preserve his own integrity!
If it turns out to be a business agreement… well..then I think he will look like the biggest hypocrite and prick (am i allowed to use that word?) ever regardless of whether he will publicly kiss Josie or not. Yes, he defended himself pretty well against all the magazine stuff but how the hell is he going to justify himself when it comes to its content? He cant just shoot “we’re together, Josie’s love knocked me of my feet” and then say well…actually I used that particular word, sentence or paragraph to say as a friend/sister – he’ll be accused of being more than a hypocrite…. a chief fraud. JJ1 is deluded if he thinks that no one would accuse him of anything after all that. And surely not that stupid to underestimate his fans intelligence and be that ruthless. So I don't think that's the reason.
I believe the Supreme Court stepped in before further submissions could be made on 'A JJJ is for life, not just for Christmas'.
But make sure you get us a cracking tree all the same, the court room has high ceilings.
I thought as much :rolleyes:
High ceilings eh? In that case I'll bag fifty foot of Norways finest and some Mahoosive Baubles to put on it. I'm hiring a snow machine for the day as well, just to give it that finishing touch
If it turns out to be a business agreement… well..then I think he will look like the biggest hypocrite and prick (am i allowed to use that word?) ever regardless of whether he will publicly kiss Josie or not. Yes, he defended himself pretty well against all the magazine stuff but how the hell is he going to justify himself when it comes to its content? He cant just shoot “we’re together, Josie’s love knocked me of my feet” and then say well…actually I used that particular word, sentence or paragraph to say as a friend/sister – he’ll be accused of being more than a hypocrite…. a chief fraud. JJ1 is deluded if he thinks that no one would accuse him of anything after all that. And surely not that stupid to underestimate his fans intelligence and be that ruthless. So I don't think that's the reason.
Well, yes he could Nyla, because the evidence of BB is that he deconstructs and then reconstructs huge amounts of stuff in a different order.
That's why even the most critical members of the prosecution tend to insist he's a massive hypocrite rather than clever liar.
JJ1 can justify anything. In the long rant of which we have the transcript he turns on the HMs who threaten to leave but don't - if you can't hack it etc.
JJ2, I think, actually calls him on this, but even then JJ1 has a comeback - he came 'nearest' to achieving this (fire escape), so is not like the others he's slagging.
It's one of the reasons why when we have argued over BB incidents where JJ1 has been at the centre of the action, much of the debate gets tied down on 'what he meant by that was' or what his intention was in saying or doing a particular thing.
High ceilings eh? In that case I'll bag fifty foot of Norways finest and some Mahoosive Baubles to put on it. I'm hiring a snow machine for the day as well, just to give it that finishing touch
Ello Pots, the baiting posts were taken off by the mods:)
Make sure you buy a Mahoosive "Positive" Bauble - a la Josie
Well, yes he could Nyla, because the evidence of BB is that he deconstructs and then reconstructs huge amounts of stuff in a different order.
That's why even the most critical members of the prosecution tend to insist he's a massive hypocrite rather than clever liar.
JJ1 can justify anything. In the long rant of which we have the transcript he turns on the HMs who threaten to leave but don't - if you can't hack it etc.
JJ2, I think, actually calls him on this, but even then JJ1 has a comeback - he came 'nearest' to achieving this (fire escape), so is not like the others he's slagging.
It's one of the reasons why when we have argued over BB incidents where JJ1 has been at the centre of the action, much of the debate gets tied down on 'what he meant by that was' or what his intention was in saying or doing a particular thing.
But OBH, seriously how the heck could he twist the stuff he said in the magazines to equal it for a mate or sister relationship. There isn’t one issue to cover and convert his words….there’s about 5 (I’m guessing) OK magazine features printed and probably a few more to come.
There’s no way he can 'justify' and convince me….
But OBH, seriously how the heck could he twist the stuff he said in the magazines to equal it for a mate or sister relationship. There isn’t one issue to cover and convert his words….there’s about 5 (I’m guessing) OK magazine features printed and probably a few more to come.
There’s no way he can 'justify' and convince me….
Well he managed to turn a nervous breakdown at the dreadful prospect of anyone going into BB to get a magazine deal around to "only a fool wouldn't take money to take their shirt off and get some abs painted on". He is, as OBH said, terrifyingly hypocritical and completely shamelessly so. He'll find a way of convincing himself, even if it doesn't work on anyone else
But OBH, seriously how the heck could he twist the stuff he said in the magazines to equal it for a mate or sister relationship. There isn’t one issue to cover and convert his words….there’s about 5 (I’m guessing) OK magazine features printed and probably a few more to come. There’s no way he can 'justify' and convince me….
Nyla - he doesn't need to justify it to us, as long as he Rubic-cubed it until he'd justified it to himself, JJ1 would be happy and 100% convinced he'd done nothing wrong and no-one could change his mind.
He could say Josie was the closest friend he'd ever had in the world and as he had never felt anything so intense before he mistook it for sexy lurve. He could say it's more important than sexy lurve and always will be. He surprised us at the beginning by being a bit contemptuous of sexual love, it wasn't that important to him.
There's also a good possibility that the journalists boosted up his quotes because he did the burbling, going round in circles stuff or evasion technique.
Imagine...
Journalist asks: How much do you love Josie?
JJ1, in typical response: How could anyone not love Josie? She's very special. She's.....etc
In print this ends up:
JJ1: I love Josie - she's very special. She's...
The JJJ management are hardly going to complain that he's been misquoted, even if JJ1 is busily underlining the words he didn't say Like That.
An example of the evasion technique is when Sam Pepper directly asks him if he's gay, in front of Josie, who announces she'd thought that as well, at first. Josie becomes more interested at this stage.
What JJ1 does is reply to Sam: You thought that?" so probes back, moves things along, rather than an immediate No.
Well he managed to turn a nervous breakdown at the dreadful prospect of anyone going into BB to get a magazine deal around to "only a fool wouldn't take money to take their shirt off and get some abs painted on". He is, as OBH said, terrifyingly hypocritical and completely shamelessly so. He'll find a way of convincing himself, even if it doesn't work on anyone else
Nyla - he doesn't need to justify it to us, as long as he Rubic-cubed it until he'd justified it to himself, JJ1 would be happy and 100% convinced he'd done nothing wrong and no-one could change his mind.
He could say Josie was the closest friend he'd ever had in the world and as he had never felt anything so intense before he mistook it for sexy lurve. He could say it's more important than sexy lurve and always will be. He surprised us at the beginning by being a bit contemptuous of sexual love, it wasn't that important to him.
There's also a good possibility that the journalists boosted up his quotes because he did the burbling, going round in circles stuff or evasion technique.
Imagine...
Journalist asks: How much do you love Josie?
JJ1, in typical response: How could anyone not love Josie? She's very special. She's.....etc
In print this ends up:
JJ1: I love Josie - she's very special. She's...
The JJJ management are hardly going to complain that he's been misquoted, even if JJ1 is busily underlining the words he didn't say Like That.
An example of the evasion technique is when Sam Pepper directly asks him if he's gay, in front of Josie, who announces she'd thought that as well, at first. Josie becomes more interested at this stage.
What JJ1 does is reply to Sam: You thought that?" so probes back, moves things along, rather than an immediate No.
But lets say I’m a fanatic JJJ tweenie and spent £3 of my weekly £10 allowance on a OK magazine as well as emotional investment and then I found out it was all a sham- he will need to either justify himself and convince me (a fan) or…. own a apology…. otherwise picture the twit attacks he’ll face :eek:
Sexy lurve? :D:D
I agree about the journalists play of text…however the words are provided by JJ1 in the first place to ignite for the boost/twist. I just think that him worrying to be accused of being a hypocrite is not the reason he refuses to show PDAs.
But lets say I’m a fanatic JJJ tweenie and spent £3 of my weekly £10 allowance on a OK magazine as well as emotional investment and then I found out it was all a sham- he will need to either justify himself and convince me (a fan) or…. own a apology…. otherwise picture the twit attacks he’ll face :eek:
Sexy lurve? :D:D
I agree about the journalists play of text…however the words are provided by JJ1 in the first place to ignite for the boost/twist. I just think that him worrying to be accused of being a hypocrite is not the reason he refuses to show PDAs.
I see where you are coming from Nyla. This is an interesting subject.
The thing is... I actually think he will probably owe nothing to anyone.:eek: It's all part of the seedy system, tacky soap opera played out live with recorded episodes in the mags.
This bottom of the pond world of celebrity is jam-packed with bullsheet. Not JJJ, necessarily, but mags are full of smiling people looking longingly at other people they would rather spit on.
You buy the dream, and a lot of the dreams really are fantasy.
Plus, while you really committed fans will be distressed if it went belly up fauxmance-style, a big bank of middle people will just think tut tut tut, you naughty hot boy.
People have done worse things. Jeffrey Archer dished out some right BS and ended up in Parliament and the House of Lords.
Think back to all the 'what a wonderful, loving, loyal family - Posh & Becks', picture specials in all the mags. Then he got caught out shagging for England.
Other major league celebs keep some really dark stuff out of the press.
And every now and again we have Big Heroes (boxers Joe Calzaghe and Ricky Hatton for instance) caught up in 'My drugs shame' and so on.
Let alone Kerry Katona's personal - and bankable see-saw.
Let's imagine that somehow 5 years from now JJ1 has crawled up the slippery greasepole of fame to Div 2 of the Celebrity League.
How many times have you heard celebs asked tricky questions about people they've been linked with in the past, and they've said:
"Out of respect for (insert name) I never talk about that now. I will say they are a wonderful person and we had a very special time together, that I treasure."
There's always a way round it. At the weekend Piers Morgan interviewed Elton John. It was a warts and all interview - drink, drugs, Diana's funeral, David Furness etc. Except... when he was asked about previously marrying a woman, Elton said very little, quickly trotting out the 'respect for a wonderful person' card, making it clear it was time to move on.
In any case, real or fake, should this 'relationship' break up, it is likely that neither will spill the beans, in my opinion, but instead talk of different lifestyle interests, growing apart while really busy, really sad it didn't work out, utmost respect blah blah etc etc.
Conclusion
So in conclusion, where I come out is closest to Mezzy10's analysis. Interested to hear what others on thread think and, in particular, Wee Tinkers as a staunch defender who thinks (as I used to) that the prosecution might find stronger evidence here. Of course, even if you accept my day 48 analysis, it doesn't necessarily follow that the relationship is real. Much could have changed subsequently and I don't personally think day 48 tells us much about whether Josie, who was clearly imo the initiator/promoter of the relationship, was conducting a romance or fauxmance.
I'm abroad at the moment, but will pick up on any responses on Friday latest.
Alex I read that twice, It was a real closes Analysis of the fire exit day, and I agree that day 48 is very hard for us to read, initally I still think that he wasn't sure on how he felt, and Josie was definitely thought she was being made a fool of at that stage.
i'm finding some of the posts really hard to understand
I can see John James having a pretty good stab at justifying his actions if it was revealed publicly that the relationship is a sham, I did it for Josie, she needed the money, her family needed the money i didn't want to let her down etc etc and then from Josie, I thought he loved me, I thought it was real etc I thought he was just shy :rolleyes:
and yes i can see an all out twitter fury being unleashed on him, but he doesn't need to read it, he could delete his account, scuttle back off to Australia and there will be no 'consequences' to face.
But OBH, seriously how the heck could he twist the stuff he said in the magazines to equal it for a mate or sister relationship. There isn’t one issue to cover and convert his words….there’s about 5 (I’m guessing) OK magazine features printed and probably a few more to come.
There’s no way he can 'justify' and convince me….
Magazine interviews are one thing, but having given this interview, I doubt he'd be looking to try to claim the relationship as purely platonic - seems to me he sets out to make it clear it isn't.
He is obviously extremely embarrassed when requested to talk more explicitly about their sex life, and defers to Josie to let her decide what she wants to make public which isn't much.
To be honest, the notion that he was unwilling to have his most intimate moments broadcast on national TV plays neither to the real or fake argument. Rather it reinforces my view that I can't think of anyone I know who would want to snog their partner on tv - much less go any further. :eek::eek:
Magazine interviews are one thing, but having given this interview, I doubt he'd be looking to try to claim the relationship as purely platonic - seems to me he sets out to make it clear it isn't.
He is obviously extremely embarrassed when requested to talk more explicitly about their sex life, and defers to Josie to let her decide what she wants to make public which isn't much.
To be honest, the notion that he was unwilling to have his most intimate moments broadcast on national TV plays neither to the real or fake argument. Rather it reinforces my view that I can't think of anyone I know who would want to snog their partner on tv - much less go any further. :eek::eek:
I understand what you are saying but it isn't just lack of steamy snogging sessions, that is quite understandable! it is also the lack of any affection at all, he is quite rude to her, and it isn't in a cosy jokey kind of way it is insulting.
I watched someone's footage of Josie's abseil, and afterwards he didn't even give her a "well done" hug! he just trailed after her as she left, and the not spending christmas together is just bizarre, I fully understand needing to spend time apart in a relationship but on Christmas Day when you don't have to
and this will be his second trip back to Australia since BB ended, why isn't she going with him? I read that she said to someone that she is waiting until she loses weight before she goes because all australian girls are very thin doesn't he want her to get to know his mother? meet his friends?
Comments
I have thought about this one quite a bit (well about 20 minutes anyway!) I think John James either can't bring himself to kiss her because he does still think of her as "sister", and he can't bring himself to force a kiss in public to keep the fans happy because he knows that if (or when depending on your opinion) it all comes out that it was a business arrangment all along he is going to look like the biggest hypocrite ever, and I think he genuinely hates that accusation.
He has defended himself quite vigorously when he has been accused of being a hypocrite over the magazine spreads etc. he has attempted to explain these away, but a public display of affection would be hard to explain if it is revealed that he never was attracted to her. when the fall out happens I am expecting him to say "of course I said I loved her....like a mate or a sister.... or you didn't realise that :rolleyes:"
In a nutshell I think John James cares more about himself than he does for Josie, and is quite happy to leave her looking like a bit of a numpty with his coldness towards her because he wants to preserve his own integrity!
Oh right I missed the "hater". :eek::D
Yes you like discussing them and you continue to do so, and well done you, you have posted quite a lot over the last while, it obviously really interests you.
Im sure you will agree on here, that its just as valid for US to discuss them also - as it interests US - albeit from a different angle than yourself.
The reason I say that, is that I have seen a few comments posted by yourself in relation to folk down here, negative stuff. By all means come in and argue your point and join in with the banter.
But going away to another thread (upstairs) to tell how you have put someone here on ignore, and that you are going to "snap soon"...................totally confuses me, as you sound as if you are quite enjoying yourself in here, and you have been made very welcome by us all..........and wished Happy Birthday more than I could count!:)
In regard to your evidence - meh, well like that good time girl Mandy Rice Davies famous quote goes .........."he would, wouldnt he"..........:D
wow. what an analysis thank you for so much time and effort on that.
It almost sounds as if you agree that JJJ are real:)
YES
Looked throught the accounts and found this
Morine0147
why you are angry when the people say that you are fake?it's the truth?it's funny you write girl friend, not girlfriend, Josie always says "boyfriend" but in one of these tweets it is written "best boy friend ever :-)", it's you who wrote this tweet on account of josie ?plus josie never uses the smiley ":-)" lol lol
I am 100% sure it was you(john) who posted it, I'll put it on JJJAT to see their reaction hihihi
:cool:
Not that clever. It's just that when we gather court evidence from outside sources (everything that's not fact-finding or opinion of known posters following the trial) I tend to think about why that evidence exists at all, not just take it as a tick for one side or the other.
I think the Twit stuff has a place in the court record purely because, at some time in the future, scraps of it may turn out to be totally in keeping with the result - or real evidence we haven't deliberated on yet. A bit like someone getting a really peculiar prediction spot on.
But a chunk of the Tweet pile, while connecting by subject matter to the trial, is not that relevant because it has another agenda - in the case of the fake accounts more likely to be just stirring up internal AT doo-doo after some wise heads up there caught someone out.
However, if for instance we eventually discovered that the Bhatti attacks were an agreed attempt to keep 'fan wars' going and get some publicity, that would be relevant to the case as possible evidence of fakery.
I believe the Supreme Court stepped in before further submissions could be made on 'A JJJ is for life, not just for Christmas'.
But make sure you get us a cracking tree all the same, the court room has high ceilings.
Yeah, never mind. I had just got up and didn't expect to see that topic slap-bang in the middle of a BB forum, that's all. I was going to watch that episode tonight and was avoiding the Apprentice forum for that very reason. Oh well, I'll live
We've been censored!
*replaces removed mistletoe and Xmas decorations*
Enjoy
If it turns out to be a business agreement… well..then I think he will look like the biggest hypocrite and prick (am i allowed to use that word?) ever regardless of whether he will publicly kiss Josie or not. Yes, he defended himself pretty well against all the magazine stuff but how the hell is he going to justify himself when it comes to its content? He cant just shoot “we’re together, Josie’s love knocked me of my feet” and then say well…actually I used that particular word, sentence or paragraph to say as a friend/sister – he’ll be accused of being more than a hypocrite…. a chief fraud. JJ1 is deluded if he thinks that no one would accuse him of anything after all that. And surely not that stupid to underestimate his fans intelligence and be that ruthless. So I don't think that's the reason.
I thought as much :rolleyes:
High ceilings eh? In that case I'll bag fifty foot of Norways finest and some Mahoosive Baubles to put on it. I'm hiring a snow machine for the day as well, just to give it that finishing touch
Well, yes he could Nyla, because the evidence of BB is that he deconstructs and then reconstructs huge amounts of stuff in a different order.
That's why even the most critical members of the prosecution tend to insist he's a massive hypocrite rather than clever liar.
JJ1 can justify anything. In the long rant of which we have the transcript he turns on the HMs who threaten to leave but don't - if you can't hack it etc.
JJ2, I think, actually calls him on this, but even then JJ1 has a comeback - he came 'nearest' to achieving this (fire escape), so is not like the others he's slagging.
It's one of the reasons why when we have argued over BB incidents where JJ1 has been at the centre of the action, much of the debate gets tied down on 'what he meant by that was' or what his intention was in saying or doing a particular thing.
Ello Pots, the baiting posts were taken off by the mods:)
Make sure you buy a Mahoosive "Positive" Bauble - a la Josie
But OBH, seriously how the heck could he twist the stuff he said in the magazines to equal it for a mate or sister relationship. There isn’t one issue to cover and convert his words….there’s about 5 (I’m guessing) OK magazine features printed and probably a few more to come.
There’s no way he can 'justify' and convince me….
Awwww shame as I find them both amusing and quite sad. Ah well C'est la vie :cool:
I shall indeed seek out the "Positve" Bauble, if it exists of course
Well he managed to turn a nervous breakdown at the dreadful prospect of anyone going into BB to get a magazine deal around to "only a fool wouldn't take money to take their shirt off and get some abs painted on". He is, as OBH said, terrifyingly hypocritical and completely shamelessly so. He'll find a way of convincing himself, even if it doesn't work on anyone else
Nyla - he doesn't need to justify it to us, as long as he Rubic-cubed it until he'd justified it to himself, JJ1 would be happy and 100% convinced he'd done nothing wrong and no-one could change his mind.
He could say Josie was the closest friend he'd ever had in the world and as he had never felt anything so intense before he mistook it for sexy lurve. He could say it's more important than sexy lurve and always will be. He surprised us at the beginning by being a bit contemptuous of sexual love, it wasn't that important to him.
There's also a good possibility that the journalists boosted up his quotes because he did the burbling, going round in circles stuff or evasion technique.
Imagine...
Journalist asks: How much do you love Josie?
JJ1, in typical response: How could anyone not love Josie? She's very special. She's.....etc
In print this ends up:
JJ1: I love Josie - she's very special. She's...
The JJJ management are hardly going to complain that he's been misquoted, even if JJ1 is busily underlining the words he didn't say Like That.
An example of the evasion technique is when Sam Pepper directly asks him if he's gay, in front of Josie, who announces she'd thought that as well, at first. Josie becomes more interested at this stage.
What JJ1 does is reply to Sam: You thought that?" so probes back, moves things along, rather than an immediate No.
But lets say I’m a fanatic JJJ tweenie and spent £3 of my weekly £10 allowance on a OK magazine as well as emotional investment and then I found out it was all a sham- he will need to either justify himself and convince me (a fan) or…. own a apology…. otherwise picture the twit attacks he’ll face :eek:
Sexy lurve?
I agree about the journalists play of text…however the words are provided by JJ1 in the first place to ignite for the boost/twist. I just think that him worrying to be accused of being a hypocrite is not the reason he refuses to show PDAs.
I see where you are coming from Nyla. This is an interesting subject.
The thing is... I actually think he will probably owe nothing to anyone.:eek: It's all part of the seedy system, tacky soap opera played out live with recorded episodes in the mags.
This bottom of the pond world of celebrity is jam-packed with bullsheet. Not JJJ, necessarily, but mags are full of smiling people looking longingly at other people they would rather spit on.
You buy the dream, and a lot of the dreams really are fantasy.
Plus, while you really committed fans will be distressed if it went belly up fauxmance-style, a big bank of middle people will just think tut tut tut, you naughty hot boy.
People have done worse things. Jeffrey Archer dished out some right BS and ended up in Parliament and the House of Lords.
Think back to all the 'what a wonderful, loving, loyal family - Posh & Becks', picture specials in all the mags. Then he got caught out shagging for England.
Other major league celebs keep some really dark stuff out of the press.
And every now and again we have Big Heroes (boxers Joe Calzaghe and Ricky Hatton for instance) caught up in 'My drugs shame' and so on.
Let alone Kerry Katona's personal - and bankable see-saw.
Let's imagine that somehow 5 years from now JJ1 has crawled up the slippery greasepole of fame to Div 2 of the Celebrity League.
How many times have you heard celebs asked tricky questions about people they've been linked with in the past, and they've said:
"Out of respect for (insert name) I never talk about that now. I will say they are a wonderful person and we had a very special time together, that I treasure."
There's always a way round it. At the weekend Piers Morgan interviewed Elton John. It was a warts and all interview - drink, drugs, Diana's funeral, David Furness etc. Except... when he was asked about previously marrying a woman, Elton said very little, quickly trotting out the 'respect for a wonderful person' card, making it clear it was time to move on.
In any case, real or fake, should this 'relationship' break up, it is likely that neither will spill the beans, in my opinion, but instead talk of different lifestyle interests, growing apart while really busy, really sad it didn't work out, utmost respect blah blah etc etc.
Alex I read that twice, It was a real closes Analysis of the fire exit day, and I agree that day 48 is very hard for us to read, initally I still think that he wasn't sure on how he felt, and Josie was definitely thought she was being made a fool of at that stage.
i'm finding some of the posts really hard to understand
and yes i can see an all out twitter fury being unleashed on him, but he doesn't need to read it, he could delete his account, scuttle back off to Australia and there will be no 'consequences' to face.
Magazine interviews are one thing, but having given this interview, I doubt he'd be looking to try to claim the relationship as purely platonic - seems to me he sets out to make it clear it isn't.
He is obviously extremely embarrassed when requested to talk more explicitly about their sex life, and defers to Josie to let her decide what she wants to make public which isn't much.
To be honest, the notion that he was unwilling to have his most intimate moments broadcast on national TV plays neither to the real or fake argument. Rather it reinforces my view that I can't think of anyone I know who would want to snog their partner on tv - much less go any further. :eek::eek:
I understand what you are saying but it isn't just lack of steamy snogging sessions, that is quite understandable! it is also the lack of any affection at all, he is quite rude to her, and it isn't in a cosy jokey kind of way it is insulting.
I watched someone's footage of Josie's abseil, and afterwards he didn't even give her a "well done" hug! he just trailed after her as she left, and the not spending christmas together is just bizarre, I fully understand needing to spend time apart in a relationship but on Christmas Day when you don't have to
and this will be his second trip back to Australia since BB ended, why isn't she going with him? I read that she said to someone that she is waiting until she loses weight before she goes because all australian girls are very thin