Picture quality of non-PVR box over HDMI vs over Scart?
joshua321
Posts: 2,143 Forum Member
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I don't have a particularly large/high spec telly but it does have one HDMI socket and is HD 1080i 50hz ready. I thought I'd give the HDMI connection on the Tiscali (non-PVR) box a try, and purchased a pretty decent lead (and an AV-switch for my DVD player) from John Lewis.
Obviously I know nothing's being broadcast in HD so the TV upscales both HDMI (SD) and Scart inputs to 1080i 50hz. Using the upscaler in the box (HDMI HD input), or the upscaler in the TV (HDMI SD input) does not seem to make a difference to the picture quality.
I immediately noticed a significant increase in detail in HDMI over Scart, I suppose because less gets lost over these type of cables. This also meant it was necessary to turn the brightness and sharpness on the TV right down.
However unless I increase the colour saturation on the TV, which gives things an 'over-coloured' look, the HDMI picture looks somehow grey and 'washed out' over the Scart picture, and also suffers from a lot more grain or noise, especially in backgrounds.
Although I am keen on the increased detail (and the 'washed out' look does help with the horrible green EPG colour!) the detractions are such that I am thinking of going back to Scart, just because the picture seems to look more 'natural' overall, despite the loss of detail.
I don't think the problem is with the TV as such as I have a DVD player upscaling to 1080i 50HZ using the same brand of HDMI lead and an AV switch to the same HDMI input and the picture is brilliant - colour is accurate and no grain/noise.
I wonder if there are any other settings I can try, either on the Tiscali box or my TV, and would also be interested to know how other people find using HDMI vs Scart for the non-PVR box on an HD ready TV.
Obviously I know nothing's being broadcast in HD so the TV upscales both HDMI (SD) and Scart inputs to 1080i 50hz. Using the upscaler in the box (HDMI HD input), or the upscaler in the TV (HDMI SD input) does not seem to make a difference to the picture quality.
I immediately noticed a significant increase in detail in HDMI over Scart, I suppose because less gets lost over these type of cables. This also meant it was necessary to turn the brightness and sharpness on the TV right down.
However unless I increase the colour saturation on the TV, which gives things an 'over-coloured' look, the HDMI picture looks somehow grey and 'washed out' over the Scart picture, and also suffers from a lot more grain or noise, especially in backgrounds.
Although I am keen on the increased detail (and the 'washed out' look does help with the horrible green EPG colour!) the detractions are such that I am thinking of going back to Scart, just because the picture seems to look more 'natural' overall, despite the loss of detail.
I don't think the problem is with the TV as such as I have a DVD player upscaling to 1080i 50HZ using the same brand of HDMI lead and an AV switch to the same HDMI input and the picture is brilliant - colour is accurate and no grain/noise.
I wonder if there are any other settings I can try, either on the Tiscali box or my TV, and would also be interested to know how other people find using HDMI vs Scart for the non-PVR box on an HD ready TV.
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Have you swapped the HDMI cables in case one is faulty?
Yes same PQ without AV-switch and just connecting STB direct to TV. Have two cables and have tried both, PQ the same. Pretty sure cables and TV are not at fault as DVDs upscaled look fine with them. I might try another brand of HDMI and direct connection just in case though.
Otherwise I think I might just have to go back to scart and sacrifice on the increased detail :-( ... or maybe I should fork out on Tiscali+ although I imagine it has the same upscaler and HDMI interface as the standard box?
Are there perhaps any secret service menus that affect PQ that I could tweak? I always wondered if there were finer settings beyond the options on channel 999....
One thing I'd really like to do (maybe you could suggest this to the powers that be?) is have the option to letterbox the STB's widescreen 16:9 output to 16:10, as this is the aspect ratio of my TV monitor (and a lot of similar small TVs that can be used as PC monitors where the 16:10 ratio comes in handy for document viewing).
Unfortunately my TV insists on vertical stretch instead of letterboxing, which is not great. As Tiscali is a service often used by people such as myself who live in small flats with poor freeview reception and no satellite/cable options, I would imagine that quite a few customers have these small space-saving TVs which tend to have a 16:10 aspect ratio monitor.
As channel 999 already allows for letterboxing of 16:9 for 4:3 TVs, I would imagine that implementing letterboxing to 16:10 would be pretty cheap and easy to implement (obviously whilst allowing any 4:3 pictures to still be shown pillarboxed in their original aspect ratio), and as I say I think there is demand for it.
Is that something you might be able to raise with those that control these things as a possible addition to the 999 channel options? I would be very grateful if you could. Or maybe there is an email address for me to send the suggestion myself?
On my TV the TV itself does a better job of upscaling than then Tiscali box, ie I see a better picture using an RGB scart than using the HDMI cable. At the time of last tesing the only HD available was the EPG, so as all programs were SD I have left in running under scart.
If Tiscali provide more HD content (rather than just Harry Potter) I may make the move to using HDMI, and spend the time trying to get the picture as good as I can for SD, but for now, I'm sticking with scart
Thanks for your reply Redster.
If you have an HDMI cable, perhaps you could kindly experiment for me by removing the SCART cable from the STB and TV, connecting up the STB via HDMI, selecting HDMI imput on your TV, going to channel 999 and selecting HDMI (SD) as the output - thus keeping it so your TV does the upscaling. For a true comparison you will probably need to turn down the brightness and contrast down on the TV itself. Does the picture look more washed out and/or grainy compared to SCART (RGB) output through the SCART cable, the same, or even better colours/background? Do you see more or less detail or about the same?
What happens if you change the output to HDMI (HD), letting the STB do the upscaling, any change from SCART or from HDMI (SD)?
Now change the output back to HDMI (SD), then remove the HDMI cable, put back the SCART cable, and go to SCART imput on your TV (you should still see a picture) but don't change back the brightness/contrast. Does the picture look more washed out and/or grainy compared to SCART (RGB) output through the SCART cable, the same, or even better colours/background? Do you see more or less detail or about the same? What about compared to the HDMI imput with HDMI(SD)/HDMI(HD) output? Is the current TV brightness/contrast still appropriate for the current picture?
Finally if you want to go back to your old settings don't forget to change the output back to SCART (RGB) on channel 999, remove the HDMI cable from the STB and the TV and readjust the brightness/contrast settings on the TV.
I would be very grateful if you could conduct this experiment for me. I'm pretty sure the problem has something to do with the HDMI output on the STB, but if you were to do this it would help me be more sure (unless of course it's only a defect of my particular STB).
I'll try and run through this by the end of the week, I can't get to the back of the tv at the moment
Just a note of correction on the beginning of the procedure:
You actually need to change the output to HDMI (SD) on channel 999 BEFORE you take out the SCART cable, then take it out, put in an HDMI cable and change the TV imput to HDMI (and then adjust brightness/contrast on the TV).
This is because for some reason the SCART (RGB) output won't be sent through HDMI to the HDMI TV imput (so if you took out the SCART cable first you wouldn't be able to navigate channel 999). However I am pretty sure that the HDMI (SD) output will be sent through the SCART cable to the SCART TV imput.
Hi, sorry for the delay, i've had the builders in so the house has been a bit topsey turvey.
on HDMI SD the picture is more grainey than scart RGB and there is less detail on the HDMI. Brightness and contrast for HDMI SD had to be changed slightly, not much as I think I set the contrast on an input basis and have already set it up for my PS3. HDMI HD seems comparible to SCART RGB, I can't quite decide which one I like more.
Unfortunately all the HD content seems to have disappear from the box at the moment (yes those with Tiscali+ have had some content) so I think I'll stick with the scart and keep my HDMI lead for the PS3 as to me the difference is minimal, and I might invest in the 2nd HDMI cable once more HD content is available
Thanks for this. Happy New Year to you. I think I will stick to HDMI HD as I find that with text etc it's clearer and the colours are more natural. However I do find some noise that is not there on SCART RGB, eg on the grey suits of presenters.
Perhaps you or maybe MK-Brett could also help with these questions?
I was thinking of getting the TalkTalk+ box at some point. I don't have any freeview reception so I presume I would just be able to record the single IPTV stream that the box is currently receiving and that it records it in real time? I imagine you can only record the live channels, not catch-up or VOD? Can you record all live TV or do they put any restrictions on it (eg feature films)?
Can you pause/rewind live TV, and if so what's the average maximum delay/rewind time? How many GB does the box have and roughly how many hours of recorded IPTV will that hold?
I currently record onto VHS using the STB's second SCART socket - is it possible to re-record/archive onto VHS/DVD anything the box had recorded, via the second SCART socket onto the TalkTalk+ box, by playing the recording back?
I imagine old customers have to pay £50 for the box...so much for brand loyalty:( ...does that mean I own it or would they still come and take it away if I left the service? Do they make you sign up for another twelve months when you pay the £50?
Thanks.
I agree text is clearer (the whole guide is designed in HD), but for viewing programs I currently find SCART maginally better.
Yes, you'll only be able to record one channel, the one you are watching, or if it's in standby anything that is from a live channel. You cannot record VOD or catch-up but I havn't had problems with anything else. I have sky sports and it ahppliy records that.
Yes you can pause/rewind tv. The box starts caching to the hard disk as soon as you select a channel, so you can rewind as far as you've been watching the channel. I think on pause I've had it for about 2 hours, so I'd say the rewind time should be the same (as long as you remain on the same channel). I'm not sure on the size of the Hard disk, but I know it's partitioned off with only some available for user recordings, the time they keep quoting is 50 hours, so should be enough for most people. The rest of the hard disk is for "future use", although they now seem to be using it or the HD content (they trickle stuff to the box when it in standby), although we've only had the harry potter films so far as it's a new feature.
Yes, you can record to VHS/DVD from the scart while watching a recording. I've not used this much, so I don't know if any progams may have any macrovision type protection to stop it.
I can't help on price, they seem to be changing their offers all the time. I did pay £50 for mine, but that was when they were first released nearly 2 years ago. It's the same as any Tiscali box, it's on rental and will have to be returned when you leave the service. To be honest though if you don't have the service it won't work, so no real loss
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