A sensible discussion (if possible) about the Premier League and La Liga

PeePee Posts: 8,154
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I've wanted to raise a sensible debate in recently about these two leagues. I'm not really fussed about which is better than which, I accept it's all going to be about preference. However
why does everyone write off La Liga as a 2-horse race and claim the Premier League to be so open anyone can win it? There are so many inconsistencies in the arguments I hear put forth

Arsenal are the 3rd best team in the PL, yet their recent record against the top 2 in all competitions reads P11 W0 D1 L10 F5 A23. how is that any more competitive than Villareal/Valencia/Atletico Madrid/Sevilla's v Real and Barca?

People talk about the points gap between the top two in Spain and the rest, but 60/70-odd points is a respectable total for 3rd-6th place teams. the problem is that the other two just happen to be much better. if Barca were in the Premier League, they would probably still be comfortably winning 90% of their games, and if Messi and Ronaldo were both playing for Man U and Chelsea, then there'd be a massive gap to the nearest teams also.

There are so many other points I could raise, but I'd like to hear people's responses first. Like I said, I know it's more about preference than anything else, and there's no right or wrong answer, but based on most people's perceptions of La Liga over here, how is the Premier League THAT much different?
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Comments

  • misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    The premier league is no more competitive its just the Barca and Real are that much better. Barca and Real would still be winning the majority of games in the EPL. Barca would walk the EPL. How anyone would think they would struggle is beyond me.

    I saw more misplaced passes tonight in the first 5 mins than I see Barca make in 90 mins. If any english side draw's barca in the CL they are getting spanked.

    The gap in quality between the barca v real game and Utd v arsenal was quite huge.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    Arsenal are the 3rd best team in the PL, yet their recent record against the top 2 in all competitions reads P11 W0 D1 L10 F5 A23. how is that any more competitive than Villareal/Valencia/Atletico Madrid/Sevilla's v Real and Barca?
    Why just pick off Arsenal ? You say only 1 team for the pl but then mention 4 Spanish teams for LL, Man City for example did they not do the double over Chelsea last year ? Liverpool have beaten Chelsea this season already and have turned Man U over also on many occasions, spurs have had wins too.

    In La Liga the top two moving further away from others and in the PL the teams are getting closer, as the Valencia chairmen said in the summer "La Liga is the new SPL".
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    misawa97 wrote: »
    The premier league is no more competitive its just the Barca and Real are that much better. Barca and Real would still be winning the majority of games in the EPL. Barca would walk the EPL. How anyone would think they would struggle is beyond me.

    I saw more misplaced passes tonight in the first 5 mins than I see Barca make in 90 mins. If any english side draw's barca in the CL they are getting spanked.

    The gap in quality between the barca v real game and Utd v arsenal was quite huge.
    Barca wouldnt have the same time on the ball in the PL its not the same game here, they wouldnt be allowed to play the beautiful game week in week out here.
  • misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    the chimp wrote: »
    Why just pick off Arsenal ? You say only 1 team for the pl but then mention 4 Spanish teams for LL, Man City for example did they not do the double over Chelsea last year ? Liverpool have beaten Chelsea this season already and have turned Man U over also on many occasions, spurs have had wins too.

    In La Liga the top two moving further away from others and in the PL the teams are getting closer, as the Valencia chairmen said in the summer "La Liga is the new SPL".

    Thats only because the top teams have got worse. I could argue that celtic and rangers have dropped more points in recent years but thats only cos they have got worse not that the SPL has got any better.

    Barca would walk the EPL just as much as they do La Liga
    Barca wouldnt have the same time on the ball in the PL its not the same game here, they wouldnt be allowed to play the beautiful game week in week out here.

    Wrong. Plenty teams try and press them but they dont require space to play there game. Get as tight as u want they can still pass the ball around u as they have supreme technique.

    Also the key to there game is they dont give there opposition time on the ball. They press and hunt in packs its just the opposition are not as good technically so cant keep the ball under pressure. Arsenal usually can keep the ball and have the majority of posession but when they played barcelona they crumbled and kept giving it away.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    misawa97 wrote: »

    Barca would walk the PL just as much as they do La Liga
    I dont think so, its a compltely different style of play without the same protection for players (no stoppage of play for foot up here for ex.)
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    misawa97 wrote: »


    Wrong. Plenty teams try and press them but they dont require space to play there game. Get as tight as u want they can still pass the ball around u as they have supreme technique.

    Also the key to there game is they dont give there opposition time on the ball. They press and hunt in packs its just the opposition are not as good technically so cant keep the ball under pressure. Arsenal usually can keep the ball and have the majority of posession but when they played barcelona they crumbled and kept giving it away.
    But Arsenal a minute ago were given as an example of a team that couldnt cope with the top two teams :confused:

    Barca would get a complete culture shock playing in the PL, I'm not saying they cant win it but they certainly wouldnt win it like in Spain, nowhere near, lower Spanish teams can only dream of the money that lower pl teams get due to the poorer distribution of cash in LL.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    if the English game is so alien to them, how come they were able to beat both Man U and Arsenal so comfortably recently?

    considering two of Barca's strengths are their ability to retain possession under pressure, and their ability to win it back very quickly, I don't see why not being given as much time on the ball (if that is indeed true) would prevent them from being able to play their game
  • misawa97misawa97 Posts: 11,579
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    Pee wrote: »
    if the English game is so alien to them, how come they were able to beat both Man U and Arsenal so comfortably recently?

    considering two of Barca's strengths are their ability to retain possession under pressure, and their ability to win it back very quickly, I don't see why not being given as much time on the ball (if that is indeed true) would prevent them from being able to play their game

    Why do people think all spanish sides just sit back and let them play. They do try and pressure them but its not easy. They move the ball so quickly and due to the off the ball movement they just drag players into positions they dont want to go to. It doesnt matter what league you play in when you can play like that.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    if the English game is so alien to them, how come they were able to beat both Man U and Arsenal so comfortably recently?

    considering two of Barca's strengths are their ability to retain possession under pressure, and their ability to win it back very quickly, I don't see why not being given as much time on the ball (if that is indeed true) would prevent them from being able to play their game
    They didnt beat Chelsea comfortably, in fact they didnt beat them at all, they just had to rely on the most controversial reffing decions seen outside a fixed match to get a draw.

    They dont get the same week in week out as they would in the PL and injuries would almost certainly become a factor over a season, I dont see the same sort of tackles flying in LL as I do in the PL for a start.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    the chimp wrote: »
    They didnt beat Chelsea comfortably, in fact they didnt beat them at all, they just had to rely on the most controversial reffing decions seen outside a fixed match to get a draw.

    They dont get the same week in week out as they would in the PL and injuries would almost certainly become a factor over a season, I dont see the same sort of tackles flying in LL as I do in the PL for a start.
    ok so Chelsea. one team out of how many? There are still 19 other teams in the league, are there not?

    I also notice no-one mentions the decisions that also went against Barca, in both legs for that matter

    the idea that they don't tackle in Spain is a bit of a myth really. look at the "tackle" Messi received not too long ago for example

    http://barcelona.theoffside.com/files/2010/09/UjfalusiMessi.jpg
    http://img228.imageshack.us/i/164727211t.jpg/

    I'm not going to pretend he's getting those every week, but it makes a nonsense of the claims that everything in Spain is just tippy-toed, and no-one gets physical
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    ok so Chelsea. one team out of how many? I also notice no-one mentions the decisions that also went against Barca, in both legs for that matter

    the idea that they don't tackle in Spain is a bit of a myth really. look at the "tackle" Messi received not too long ago for example

    http://barcelona.theoffside.com/files/2010/09/UjfalusiMessi.jpg
    http://img228.imageshack.us/i/164727211t.jpg/

    I'm not going to pretend he's getting those every week, but it makes a nonsense of the claims that everything in Spain is just tippy-toed, and no-one gets physical
    Its nowhere near as physical as here, not even close.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    bad tackles are still bad tackles, right?
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    bad tackles are still bad tackles, right?
    They are but thats nothing to do with the game being more physical here than in Spain.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    and what difference does that make to the way they play
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    and what difference does that make to the way they play
    A massive difference, have you never heard overseas players talking about how much more physical the game is here or how little time you are allowed on the ball ?
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    I don't see how that would make such a massive difference to a side whose game is based on ball retention under pressure. I didn't really see Chelsea, Man U, or Arsenal manage to deny them time on the ball.

    let's change tack a bit. how are the second tier of PL teams over here any better than those in La Liga overall?
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    I don't see how that would make such a massive difference to a side whose game is based on ball retention under pressure. I didn't really see Chelsea, Man U, or Arsenal manage to deny them time on the ball.

    let's change tack a bit. how are the second tier of PL teams over here any better than those in La Liga overall?
    Second tear (if you are talking outside of the top two) theres no doubt england is stronger, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man C, Spain struggles to match here and this is the main reason why Barca and Real are so far ahead over there, last season our champions Chelsea had more losses that the top two in Spain combined, there was 28 points between 1st and third in Spain thats 3 more than the gap there was to 8th in the PL.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    you sound like you're reading straight from a Sky press release.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Pee wrote: »
    you sound like you're reading straight from a Sky press release.
    Not a very good comeback really, they are facts which you can check yourself in a matter of seconds.

    Not sure what sky has to do with it unless you are trying to insinuate I am of the sky generation, simple fact I'm not and I prefered football before the PL.
  • Lawro2Lawro2 Posts: 1,219
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    Pee wrote: »
    I also notice no-one mentions the decisions that also went against Barca, in both legs for that matter

    Barcelona were robbed of a place in the final.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jta12s1hQJA
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    Lawro2 wrote: »
    Barcelona were robbed of a place in the final.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jta12s1hQJA
    In that one they certainly were.
  • ShaunIOWShaunIOW Posts: 11,303
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    The English top flight has traditionally been a lot more open than the Spanish top flight - you just need to look at the fact that over 20 different clubs have won the English league compared to 6 different clubs in Spain and even the two most successful English clubs have less than 20 titles each - compare that to Spain where it's nearly always Barca or Real and always has been BUT these days the Premier is more of a closed shop because of rule changes and TV money distribution favouring a select few and maintaining a status quo at the top which imo has spoilt english football as the beauty was nearly every team kicking off in august even those coming up thoughjt they might have a chance, now out side the top 4 its a case of a few tryimng for Euope, getting Europe then giving up as it affects their league status or battling relegation from day 1. The days are gone when a team can come up and challange with the trophies spread about over the years (look how often the double which was normally a rare event has been won since the Prem started compared to the previous 100 years) and that makes me sad.
  • the chimpthe chimp Posts: 12,139
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    ShaunIOW wrote: »
    The English top flight has traditionally been a lot more open than the Spanish top flight - you just need to look at the fact that over 20 different clubs have won the English league compared to 6 different clubs in Spain and even the two most successful English clubs have less than 20 titles each - compare that to Spain where it's nearly always Barca or Real and always has been BUT these days the Premier is more of a closed shop because of rule changes and TV money distribution favouring a select few and maintaining a status quo at the top which imo has spoilt english football as the beauty was nearly every team kicking off in august even those coming up thoughjt they might have a chance, now out side the top 4 its a case of a few tryimng for Euope, getting Europe then giving up as it affects their league status or battling relegation from day 1. The days are gone when a team can come up and challange with the trophies spread about over the years (look how often the double which was normally a rare event has been won since the Prem started compared to the previous 100 years) and that makes me sad.
    I agree with all you say apart from the fact we now at least seem to have a top 6, sad thing is though we didnt used to even have a top 6 we had lots of clubs competing in cycles but now its just a certain few.
  • PeePee Posts: 8,154
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    ShaunIOW wrote: »
    The English top flight has traditionally been a lot more open than the Spanish top flight - you just need to look at the fact that over 20 different clubs have won the English league compared to 6 different clubs in Spain and even the two most successful English clubs have less than 20 titles each - compare that to Spain where it's nearly always Barca or Real and always has been BUT these days the Premier is more of a closed shop because of rule changes and TV money distribution favouring a select few and maintaining a status quo at the top which imo has spoilt english football as the beauty was nearly every team kicking off in august even those coming up thoughjt they might have a chance, now out side the top 4 its a case of a few tryimng for Euope, getting Europe then giving up as it affects their league status or battling relegation from day 1. The days are gone when a team can come up and challange with the trophies spread about over the years (look how often the double which was normally a rare event has been won since the Prem started compared to the previous 100 years) and that makes me sad.

    I agree with all of this. it's not just England though, money seems to have corrupted football just about everywhere
  • batdude_uk1batdude_uk1 Posts: 78,722
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    Blame UEFA for the monopolising of the leagues by certain clubs, as ever since the Champions League was created, the clubs that have been in have had a distinct advantage over those that haven't.
    Nearly every league in Europe has been affected by this, some more so than others, but this is still a very serious problem, whereever you look.
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