But he's now getting fingered, blamed, people are saying he should step down (not you, I know ) for something out of his control.
I agree. I think it's wrong they opened the lines without considering the permetations. Really they should've made the judges count as '2' for Rachel and Lisa and '1' for Tom, hence giving the public a say, yet making someone leave tonight.
Thank you - I feel you are one of the few understanding where I'm coming from
The chances are Tom would have gone because both his dances were weaker than the two performed by the girls.
The rules are flawed because in this instance they automatically handed complete power to the judges.
I don't like the rules, but they have to be stuck to or ammended before the event not after it.
Still doesn't mean he would have gone with a proper public say.
I think this whole scenario has just shown us exactly why there should be no dance-off at this stage of the competition. If the result had been purely judges scores and public votes, then any one of them could have been out despite the tie at the top and we wouldn't have had this ridiculous farce.
I honestly feel they would have done the same regardless of who tied it.
Its the best result, and great for three great dancers. Tom was off his game tonight, but honestly, who really cares!
I agree that I think they would have done this regardless of whoever found themselves in this position tonight. But I dont think Tom had an off-night, he danced as he always does I think. Choreography wasnt great though.
Still doesn't mean he would have gone with a proper public say.
But as the rules stand, such a unique scenario doesn't allow for the public to have a say. The Beeb should have thought of what to do if such an occasion arose and acted accordingly. I'm annoyed at their negligence.
No, if the judges did not give Rachel and Lisa the same scores than everything would be business as usual.
But saying Tom phone numbers should be closed would be rather pointless and what exactly is the point of him being in the semi-finals.
I think it's extremly fair on all of them sense they get to be in the finals.
They can still win the show Sid, but the bottom line is Rachel can't win this show without the public's vote.
Yes but the judges did award Rachel and Lisa the same scores which resulted in a rather unique and overlooked situation that Tom was inevitably going to face the dance-off. But if those are the rules we are playing by, they have to be stuck to.
Yas - I hope you believe me that this isn't about Rachel's fate! I never expected her to win, but I'm pointing out that either her or Lisa should have done so if tonight's semis had been by the book.
All they had to do before they opened the phonelines was ask the judges to rate lisa and rachel 1st and 2nd, or give the 3 points to Lisa (my least fave by the way) as she had the highest scoring individual dance. As it was it wasn't fair that the public got no say in whether Tom stayed or ended up in the dance off.
I don't think a Tom win would be a hollow victory either. Darren Gough was third after the judges votes in the final but still stayed out of the bottom two thanks to the public flipping the scoreboard. And i'm not sure if i remember this right but didn't Emma Bunton lose out in the semi final despite being top of the leaderboard?
Deliberate or not i'm glad this has led to a 3 person final although it probably means my favourite (Rachel) won't win now. I hope they ditch the dance off next year, at least once they get to the QF's. If the dance standard is as even as they say, who cares at this point if couple A are 2 points better than couple B if the majority of the audience prefer to watch couple B? I didn't care for Austin but it seemed a shame for one of the more popular dancers to leave at that stage due to one bad night.
All they had to do before they opened the phonelines was ask the judges to rate lisa and rachel 1st and 2nd, or give the 3 points to Lisa (my least fave by the way) as she had the highest scoring individual dance. As it was it wasn't fair that the public got no say in whether Tom stayed or ended up in the dance off.
I don't think a Tom win would be a hollow victory either. Darren Gough was third after the judges votes in the final but still stayed out of the bottom two thanks to the public flipping the scoreboard. And i'm not sure if i remember this right but didn't Emma Bunton lose out in the semi final despite being top of the leaderboard?
Deliberate or not i'm glad this has led to a 3 person final although it probably means my favourite (Rachel) won't win now. I hope they ditch the dance off next year, at least once they get to the QF's. If the dance standard is as even as they say, who cares at this point if couple A are 2 points better than couple B if the majority of the audience prefer to watch couple B? I didn't care for Austin but it seemed a shame for one of the more popular dancers to leave at that stage due to one bad night.
I appreciate your reasoned argument I agree with most of your points
But as the rules stand, such a unique scenario doesn't allow for the public to have a say. The Beeb should have thought of what to do if such an occasion arose and acted accordingly. I'm annoyed at their negligence.
Yes but the judges did award Rachel and Lisa the same scores which resulted in a rather unique and overlooked situation that Tom was inevitably going to face the dance-off. But if those are the rules we are playing by, they have to be stuck to.
Yas - I hope you believe me that this isn't about Rachel's fate! I never expected her to win, but I'm pointing out that either her or Lisa should have done so if tonight's semis had been by the book.
But it's supposed to be 50:50. The awarding of equal top points to Lisa & Rachel meant that it wouldn't be and that was against the rules too.
I think Len awarding Lisa 10 for the AT which Brendan looked stunned at was the biggest joke yet. This resulted in the tied score. I would have been quite happy if it had been a Lisa/Rachel dance off. Lisa would have went.
I think Len awarding Lisa 10 for the AT which Brendan looked stunned at was the biggest joke yet. This resulted in the tied score. I would have been quite happy if it had been a Lisa/Rachel dance off. Lisa would have went.
Len's marks were very odd and not consistant with the rest of his scores this series.
Yes but the judges did award Rachel and Lisa the same scores which resulted in a rather unique and overlooked situation that Tom was inevitably going to face the dance-off. But if those are the rules we are playing by, they have to be stuck to.
Yas - I hope you believe me that this isn't about Rachel's fate! I never expected her to win, but I'm pointing out that either her or Lisa should have done so if tonight's semis had been by the book.
I do believe you Sid. But whatever the results tonight, it would have been unfair.
But I don't you think it's pointless having a public vote for two contestants, if they did like you are suggesting with closing Tom lines.
We have 3 semi-finalists but sorry you can only have your say on 2 of them. What would be the point of that.
All they had to do before they opened the phonelines was ask the judges to rate lisa and rachel 1st and 2nd, or give the 3 points to Lisa (my least fave by the way) as she had the highest scoring individual dance. As it was it wasn't fair that the public got no say in whether Tom stayed or ended up in the dance off.
I don't think a Tom win would be a hollow victory either. Darren Gough was third after the judges votes in the final but still stayed out of the bottom two thanks to the public flipping the scoreboard. And i'm not sure if i remember this right but didn't Emma Bunton lose out in the semi final despite being top of the leaderboard?
Deliberate or not i'm glad this has led to a 3 person final although it probably means my favourite (Rachel) won't win now. I hope they ditch the dance off next year, at least once they get to the QF's. If the dance standard is as even as they say, who cares at this point if couple A are 2 points better than couple B if the majority of the audience prefer to watch couple B? I didn't care for Austin but it seemed a shame for one of the more popular dancers to leave at that stage due to one bad night.
I agree that the BBC should have had the intelligence and logic (ha!) to have forseen this potential problem and to have thought up a plan in the event of it occurring.
The idea of going back to the judges for a final rank overall in the event of tied scores appeals to me although that's not without its problems either.
The issue about not shifting goalposts however, is a sticky one. I would argue that the goalposts have already been changed both this year and last with the judges getting the greater control of who makes the final two.
Before a contestant's withdrawal, the couple that finished on top of the public vote would always have made the final two. When a couple dropped out, suddenly that wasn't the case. It makes no difference imo whether it is semi final or final. Circumstances change and goalposts shift.
Not true! He could have topped the public vote and been in the dance off still.
Rachel 4 + 2
Tom 3 + 3
Lisa 2 + 1
Austin 4 + 1
Austin's still in the dance off despite being the most popular with the public, that's why lots of us have a problem with the dance off at this stage, the judges get 2 bites at the cherry. If it just goes on who is bottom with the public at this stage, it would be much fairer imo.
You are going to have to face the fact sooner or later Alli Austin is out!
Sorry I disagree with the OP. Tonight's outcome was the only proper outcome. You cannot have a three way semi final in which one of the couples is automatically in the dance off regardless of the public vote. If it had been Rachel or Lisa in the same position I would have felt the same. It would not have been fair. Now from a philosophical point of view, the BBC should never have gotten into this position I agree. The dance off is stupid (and as a Austin supporter I'm particularly bitter, that the same didn't happen last week). However, Austin wasn't in the same position. Technically he could have made the semis. Tom couldn't. Sid you are a Rachel supporter, would you ask for following the rules if Rachel had been in the same position as Tom. I don't think so.
But as the rules stand, such a unique scenario doesn't allow for the public to have a say. The Beeb should have thought of what to do if such an occasion arose and acted accordingly. I'm annoyed at their negligence.
Yes but the judges did award Rachel and Lisa the same scores which resulted in a rather unique and overlooked situation that Tom was inevitably going to face the dance-off. But if those are the rules we are playing by, they have to be stuck to.
Yas - I hope you believe me that this isn't about Rachel's fate! I never expected her to win, but I'm pointing out that either her or Lisa should have done so if tonight's semis had been by the book.
I share your annoyance about the producers not seeing the potential for this and being prepared (preferably by not having a dance-off at this stage), but I cannot agree that they should have stuck to the rules. Sticking to the rules to the letter would have completely gone against the spirit of the rules that the vote is split 50:50 between the judges and the public, not to mention the trouble the BBC would be in for allowing people to vote for Tom without it counting for anything. Sticking to the rules would have been a disaster that could well have ruined the show forever.
I think that whoever had been in danger of going, the Beeb would have made the same decision. It's ultimately fairer and it will be great to have a three couple final next week. I can't wait!
I have 'O' level maths - I'm thinking of applying for a job at SCD for next series. I reckon there's a need for someone who can work out the possible permutations in a three couple show as they obviously don't have anyone on the staff with that particular skill!
I think the whole episode leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth. I actually felt before the show started tonight that the judges wanted an all girl final and would therefore judge Tom harshly in order to ensure he would be in the bottom two - tonight was beginning to feel like a re run of last week with Tom cast as Austin. Very disappointing as Tom has been great.
I enjoyed his jive and much preferred his AT to Lisa's but that is of course a very personal choice. I found Lisa's quickstep, although very good, quite boring and I felt the same about Rachel's American Smooth.
That aside, the marks were odd to say the least, why a 10 from Len when he acknowledge Lisa's wobble for example? I do not know if it was deliberate to have the girls joint at the top, but I certainly feel they were always going to be there regardless of how well Tom danced.
I do not understand how the BBC did not have a plan for this happening or at least say something straight away - I feel sorry for Tom as I am glad he is in the final but it strikes me through no fault of his own, he is getting the backlash for this debacle.
Excellent post that says it all for me. Ditto lach doch mal's.
If it had been Rachel or Lisa in the situation Tom was in tonight, the situation would have been exactly the same.
Look at the wider picture: the BBC has fallen foul of so many PR disasters over competitions (Blue Peter, etc.) that the whole issue of trust is still a major hot potato. If they asked people to phone in to save their favourites when the public vote could count for nothing, they could land in so much hot water.
If they'd closed Tom's phone line because he couldn't win, they'd land up in similarly hot water.
This isn't Tom's fault and, as usual, the people pointing the fingers never stop to think about how they'd feel if their favourite had been in the same situation. :rolleyes:
As with so much this series, the fault for this lays with the judges and the producers. Time for a few changes, I think ...
Excellent post that says it all for me. Ditto lach doch mal's.
If it had been Rachel or Lisa in the situation Tom was in tonight, the situation would have been exactly the same.
Look at the wider picture: the BBC has fallen foul of so many PR disasters over competitions (Blue Peter, etc.) that the whole issue of trust is still a major hot potato. If they asked people to phone in to save their favourites when the public vote could count for nothing, they could land in so much hot water.
If they'd closed Tom's phone line because he couldn't win, they'd land up in similarly hot water.
This isn't Tom's fault and, as usual, the people pointing the fingers never stop to think about how they'd feel if their favourite had been in the same situation. :rolleyes:
As with so much this series, the fault for this lays with the judges and the producers. Time for a few changes, I think ...
Yes please get rid of the dance off... Sorry to all L&B and R& T supporters, but we could have ended up with a final in which the two couples had the least public support (with 6 dance offs between them). That doesn't make for interesting watching, even if people think this is a pure dancing competition.
Comments
Thank you - I feel you are one of the few understanding where I'm coming from
Still doesn't mean he would have gone with a proper public say.
No, if the judges did not give Rachel and Lisa the same scores than everything would be business as usual.
But saying Tom phone numbers should be closed would be rather pointless and what exactly is the point of him being in the semi-finals.
I think it's extremly fair on all of them sense they get to be in the finals.
They can still win the show Sid, but the bottom line is Rachel can't win this show without the public's vote.
Totally agree.
Me too.
I agree that I think they would have done this regardless of whoever found themselves in this position tonight. But I dont think Tom had an off-night, he danced as he always does I think. Choreography wasnt great though.
But as the rules stand, such a unique scenario doesn't allow for the public to have a say. The Beeb should have thought of what to do if such an occasion arose and acted accordingly. I'm annoyed at their negligence.
Yes but the judges did award Rachel and Lisa the same scores which resulted in a rather unique and overlooked situation that Tom was inevitably going to face the dance-off. But if those are the rules we are playing by, they have to be stuck to.
Yas - I hope you believe me that this isn't about Rachel's fate! I never expected her to win, but I'm pointing out that either her or Lisa should have done so if tonight's semis had been by the book.
I don't think a Tom win would be a hollow victory either. Darren Gough was third after the judges votes in the final but still stayed out of the bottom two thanks to the public flipping the scoreboard. And i'm not sure if i remember this right but didn't Emma Bunton lose out in the semi final despite being top of the leaderboard?
Deliberate or not i'm glad this has led to a 3 person final although it probably means my favourite (Rachel) won't win now. I hope they ditch the dance off next year, at least once they get to the QF's. If the dance standard is as even as they say, who cares at this point if couple A are 2 points better than couple B if the majority of the audience prefer to watch couple B? I didn't care for Austin but it seemed a shame for one of the more popular dancers to leave at that stage due to one bad night.
I appreciate your reasoned argument I agree with most of your points
But it's supposed to be 50:50. The awarding of equal top points to Lisa & Rachel meant that it wouldn't be and that was against the rules too.
Len's marks were very odd and not consistant with the rest of his scores this series.
I do believe you Sid. But whatever the results tonight, it would have been unfair.
But I don't you think it's pointless having a public vote for two contestants, if they did like you are suggesting with closing Tom lines.
We have 3 semi-finalists but sorry you can only have your say on 2 of them. What would be the point of that.
Well said Lizzie, I agree with you.
The idea of going back to the judges for a final rank overall in the event of tied scores appeals to me although that's not without its problems either.
The issue about not shifting goalposts however, is a sticky one. I would argue that the goalposts have already been changed both this year and last with the judges getting the greater control of who makes the final two.
Before a contestant's withdrawal, the couple that finished on top of the public vote would always have made the final two. When a couple dropped out, suddenly that wasn't the case. It makes no difference imo whether it is semi final or final. Circumstances change and goalposts shift.
You are going to have to face the fact sooner or later Alli Austin is out!
I share your annoyance about the producers not seeing the potential for this and being prepared (preferably by not having a dance-off at this stage), but I cannot agree that they should have stuck to the rules. Sticking to the rules to the letter would have completely gone against the spirit of the rules that the vote is split 50:50 between the judges and the public, not to mention the trouble the BBC would be in for allowing people to vote for Tom without it counting for anything. Sticking to the rules would have been a disaster that could well have ruined the show forever.
Excellent post that says it all for me. Ditto lach doch mal's.
If it had been Rachel or Lisa in the situation Tom was in tonight, the situation would have been exactly the same.
Look at the wider picture: the BBC has fallen foul of so many PR disasters over competitions (Blue Peter, etc.) that the whole issue of trust is still a major hot potato. If they asked people to phone in to save their favourites when the public vote could count for nothing, they could land in so much hot water.
If they'd closed Tom's phone line because he couldn't win, they'd land up in similarly hot water.
This isn't Tom's fault and, as usual, the people pointing the fingers never stop to think about how they'd feel if their favourite had been in the same situation. :rolleyes:
As with so much this series, the fault for this lays with the judges and the producers. Time for a few changes, I think ...
Yes please get rid of the dance off... Sorry to all L&B and R& T supporters, but we could have ended up with a final in which the two couples had the least public support (with 6 dance offs between them). That doesn't make for interesting watching, even if people think this is a pure dancing competition.