I thought season 4 was tremendous and the finale staggering. But we are now at an interesting point.
Just in terms of dynamic you'd want your main story lines moving on or else viewers will feel season 5 has just marked time. I can see how the authored story lines for Arya, Daenerys and Cersai maybe don't need to be extended for season 5. But I feel Tyrion's will have to move on more.
And while, with 4 seasons to go, we can stand a couple of whole new strands opening up, I don't see how that can be done at the expense of other main characters not appearing at all without viewers feeling hard done by.
It would make sense for GRRM to agree new material with the producers for season 5 and to release the next book around the same time as season 5 airs. That will be his last chance to lever the TV series anyway I think, it seems likely to me he wouldn't release another book until the whole TV series is over - which must affect his motivation for completing the series, and people's enthusiasm for buying the final two or three books .
The perfect solution would be to have just two more books - with one released at the start of series 5 and one at the end of season 8. But I can't see GRRM managing that.
I've heard suggestions that there will only be 2 more seasons, possibly 3. If that's true then story lines will be simplified and a lot of the end game will have to be set in motion in season 5.
Knowing GRRM I think he would be happy for the TV show to wrap things up in it's own way and he'll just continue writing the novels at the pace he's happy. Most of the main outcomes will be the same but the overall narrative will be completely different.
I've heard suggestions that there will only be 2 more seasons, possibly 3. If that's true then story lines will be simplified and a lot of the end game will have to be set in motion in season 5.
Knowing GRRM I think he would be happy for the TV show to wrap things up in it's own way and he'll just continue writing the novels at the pace he's happy. Most of the main outcomes will be the same but the overall narrative will be completely different.
Well let's hope at the least the producers get a full series notice of any cancellation - so they can bring the series to a conclusion - even if rather rapidly. But with viewer numbers rising with every series, it's hard at the moment to imagine that viewer numbers would fall in the next two seasons to the extent that would lead to cancellation. I suppose an acting change for any of the lead characters could be disastrous though.
I've heard suggestions that there will only be 2 more seasons, possibly 3.
Well Seasons 5 and 6 have already been given the go ahead.
The showrunners have ruled out 10 seasons but in the past have talked about telling an 80 - 90 hour story (ie 8 or 9 seasons).
More recent interviews have them talking about 70 plus hours so I think 7 or 8 seasons is the most likely outcome possibly with a Season 7 part 1 and 2 rather than an official Season 8 as that would work out cheaper with regards to the Actors contracts.
Well Seasons 5 and 6 have already been given the go ahead.
The showrunners have ruled out 10 seasons but in the past have talked about telling an 80 - 90 hour story (ie 8 or 9 seasons).
More recent interviews have them talking about 70 plus hours so I think 7 or 8 seasons is the most likely outcome possibly with a Season 7 part 1 and 2 rather than an official Season 8 as that would work out cheaper with regards to the Actors contracts.
Yes, I was expecting that we'll end with part 1 and 2 spaced out over a year. I'm sure that HBO would keep the series going for as long as they could but actor commitments will make that impossible. The cast is just too large.
All signs were pointing to a big set up at the finale with a shot of Stoneheart.
Really?
I thought there was no big set up whatsoever this season for Stoneheart. People just expected some big twist because it's what came in the books.
To be honest I'm kinda glad they didn't go for some fanwanky end of season twist outta nowhere. When they do the reveal I want there to be a build up. The Stoneheart plot is perfect for a whole season of mystery with the Freys being knocked off by a unknown presence before you find out who is behind it.
I've heard suggestions that there will only be 2 more seasons, possibly 3. If that's true then story lines will be simplified and a lot of the end game will have to be set in motion in season 5.
The producers say seven.
Series 5: AFFC / ADOD
Series 6: TWOW
Series 7: ADOS
TWOW will be released just after Series 5 has been shown in summer 2015 I guess, just in time to be filmed for series 6. The script writers can read the manuscript before the publishers turn it in to book format.
GRRM then has one year to write ADOS, which does not seem realistic and he's talking about eight books now.
Knowing GRRM I think he would be happy for the TV show to wrap things up in it's own way and he'll just continue writing the novels at the pace he's happy. Most of the main outcomes will be the same but the overall narrative will be completely different.
The books and television series may end differently, I agree that he shows no signs of wanting to change his writing pace. If the books were hurried and suffered quality wise would that be worth it just to keep up with the television series?
The books and television series may end differently, I agree that he shows no signs of wanting to change his writing pace. If the books were hurried and suffered quality wise would that be worth it just to keep up with the television series?
The rule for the series so far seems to be the longer he takes to write the worse the book is.
I've read nothing that suggests his writing quality has improved with the last 2 books, they are undoubtedly inferior to the first 3.
I thought there was no big set up whatsoever this season for Stoneheart. People just expected some big twist because it's what came in the books.
To be honest I'm kinda glad they didn't go for some fanwanky end of season twist outta nowhere. When they do the reveal I want there to be a build up. The Stoneheart plot is perfect for a whole season of mystery with the Freys being knocked off by a unknown presence before you find out who is behind it.
No big set up, but plenty of signs. They were always talking about Catelyn's death, more so than Robbs. Sansa even went into great detail about her mother's throat being sliced to the bone. The previous season went through the process of informing the viewer that it is possible to be brought back to life several times through r'hllor. Which as a book reader makes you immediately think this is foreshadowing for the reveal of Stoneheart. Couple this with the pisstake photo Lena Headey put up on Instagram of a pile of stones made into a heart and it seemed to almost confirm it was happening.
The ending they did do seemed far too rushed. Brienne and Arya meeting? Brienne getting the better of The Hound? Arya suddenly finding Brienne's horse and trotting along to the shore and off on a ship to bravvos, all within the blink of an eye. There was nothing about the ending that felt made me feel like I can't wait to find out what is happening next.
No big set up, but plenty of signs. They were always talking about Catelyn's death, more so than Robbs. Sansa even went into great detail about her mother's throat being sliced to the bone. The previous season went through the process of informing the viewer that it is possible to be brought back to life several times through r'hllor. Which as a book reader makes you immediately think this is foreshadowing for the reveal of Stoneheart. Couple this with the pisstake photo Lena Headey put up on Instagram of a pile of stones made into a heart and it seemed to almost confirm it was happening.
The ending they did do seemed far too rushed. Brienne and Arya meeting? Brienne getting the better of The Hound? Arya suddenly finding Brienne's horse and trotting along to the shore and off on a ship to bravvos, all within the blink of an eye. There was nothing about the ending that felt made me feel like I can't wait to find out what is happening next.
Arya was riding her own pony in that scene. The one that The Hound stole for her a couple of episodes back.
Arya was riding her own pony in that scene. The one that The Hound stole for her a couple of episodes back.
That makes a bit more sense thinking about it, but as we hadn't seen Arya with the horse since, i'd forgotten about it. I just found that end sequence a bit rushed. Maybe comparing it to how slow the pace of the books has become, it was a bit jarring.
That makes a bit more sense thinking about it, but as we hadn't seen Arya with the horse since, i'd forgotten about it. I just found that end sequence a bit rushed. Maybe comparing it to how slow the pace of the books has become, it was a bit jarring.
I'm guessing the missing Horse is down to filming locations.
Icelandic Law does not allow outside Horses to be brought into Iceland.
All the scenes we saw The Hound/Arya walking (the Bloody Gate/fight with Brienne) were filmed in Iceland while earlier scenes (plus the penultimate scene of Arya on the horse) were in Northern Ireland.
Same applies to Brienne/Pod which is why their horses suddenly disappeared.
Strange that they gave an explanation of Brienne/Pod's horses going missing but did not do the same for Arya/Hound.
The same thing happened back when the Nights Watch rode north. As far as Crasters Keep they had lots of Horses but by the time they get to the Fist of the First Men (filmed in Iceland) most of the Horses are gone and those they have are suddenly the smaller Icelandic Horses.
The rule for the series so far seems to be the longer he takes to write the worse the book is.
I've read nothing that suggests his writing quality has improved with the last 2 books, they are undoubtedly inferior to the first 3.
I've read through the entire book series twice now, I didn't notice the last two being worse than the first three. I found myself totally gripped, immersed in a world in chaos, following the characters as they move through it, I don't need massive set pieces and constant battles to keep a book interesting, I like descriptions of everyday life, they help to paint the pictures in my head, and keep it all realistic.
For instance people keep saying how the Daenerys chapters are boring and she's stuck in Meereen doing nothing, except getting hot over her sellsword. The way I read it is she's in Meereen learning how to rule, and watching over a steady decline due to subversion and resistance from the original inhabitants, it's a lesson in how not to conquer, because no-one is happy, not the masters (obviously) but not even the slaves who are now free to starve to death on the streets. She does her best to rectify things, but everything she does just makes the situation worse. Not boring at all.
I generally liked the last two books but they could have used a little snipping from time to time. Brienne's wild goose chase was a little too long. Quentyn had too much travel time as well seeing as he was a red shirt.
Sill I think the main problem with the last two books is the lack of the next book. It leaves so much unresolved.
I generally liked the last two books but they could have used a little snipping from time to time. Brienne's wild goose chase was a little too long. Quentyn had too much travel time as well seeing as he was a red shirt.
Sill I think the main problem with the last two books is the lack of the next book. It leaves so much unresolved.
I agree, I almost wish I'd not started reading the series now. It would be much better if the books came out at regular intervals, one a year maybe. The problem is that Mr Martin seems to be rather enjoying his celebrity status a lot more than he likes writing the story! Plus he's completed a whole raft of other projects since he started the series, it makes me cross.
I generally liked the last two books but they could have used a little snipping from time to time. Brienne's wild goose chase was a little too long. Quentyn had too much travel time as well seeing as he was a red shirt.
Sill I think the main problem with the last two books is the lack of the next book. It leaves so much unresolved.
Yes, there is a fair bit of meandering going on. And far too many uninteresting new POV characters, IMO. And while they do flesh out the world more, they mostly come off as trailers for events in the final books. One book bridging the gap from A-B is sort of acceptable but two books in a row is pushing it.
I can see them making the most book-to-TV changes to date for season 5. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the likes of Bran and Sansa considering they've almost reached the end of their book material already.
Never really understood the hate for books 4 and 5.
Brienne's journey, slow though it was, was a slow burn of intrigue as you never really knew what she'd discover and whether she would actually find Allayne or the truth about Arya.
The only story that slightly grated was Daenerys' but that's more to do with how naive and inept she was than anything else.
On the topic of squeezing two books into 10 episodes I honestly can't see how they can do it without cutting entire plots - thus revealing to us book readers which are key and which are simply fluff.
Off the top of my head the season would need to include:
* Cersei: lesbianism, madness, attempting to discredit the Tyrells, the walk of shame, her battle with the church and Sir Robert Strong
* Jaime: goes to Riverrun where we discover what became of the Blackfish and Edmure post-Red Wedding.
* Cat of the canal/the Little Blind Girl
* "Arya Stark"'s wedding to Ramsay Bolton
* Davos recruiting Wyman Manderly and the events at Winterfell
* Stannis marching his army south and the battle with Asha's troops
* Sam and Gilly: the baby swap, the trip south, the sex, the close encounter with Cat of the Canals
* Tyrion: his journey to Meereen, slavery and the redemption of Jorah Mormont
* Jon Connington, his Targaryen friend and the whereabouts of The Golden Company
* Balon Greyjoy's death (completing Stannis's prophecy), the Kingsmoot and the skirmishes in the West
* The kidnap and mutilation of Myrcella
* Quentyn's destiny, his journey and the eventual outcome
* The election of a new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
* The death of Mance Rayder
* The redemption of Reek
* The final scene at the wall
* Bran and Weirwood.Net
* Allayne's future
* Brienne and Pod's journey
* The reappearance of Gendry
* Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners vs the Freys
* Sam, Oldtown and the Citadel
* Lancel and the re-emergence of the religious paramilitaries
* The fate of Grand Maester Pycell
* Loris and his adventures on Dragonstone
* Daenerys Stormborn vs Meereen and the oncoming Battle of Slavers Bay
* Dragon Riding
* The Quiet Isle / Gravedigger Theory
* The resettlement of the wildlings in The Gift
All of that in one season??? (and I'm sure I've missed some).
Anyone want to bet on which plots were red herrings and which will be key in the final books?
The rule for the series so far seems to be the longer he takes to write the worse the book is.
I've read nothing that suggests his writing quality has improved with the last 2 books, they are undoubtedly inferior to the first 3.
I take the point but I really enjoyed AFFC, although I agree considering it took five years to write, very little seem to happen. I'm just working my way though ADOD now.
It would help if he was a bit better organised, so the two big battles had been in ADOD, then people wouldn't keep pestering him for TWOW all the time.
I'm on part one of dance of dragons. I am tending to skip the Davos chapters as I find him tedious. I'm totally confused with where he is and what he is doing to be honest!
I hope we get to see what happens with Brienne and podrick ?
On the topic of squeezing two books into 10 episodes I honestly can't see how they can do it without cutting entire plots
Unless GRRM has something major planned for Gendry in Book 6 or 7 I doubt we'll see him in the show again. In the book he's still with the BwB (or a faction of them anyway) but that obviously won't be the case in the show after they sold him to Mel.
I doubt we will see Sam/Gilly leave the Wall. There probably won't even be a Mance/Dalla baby so no need for a baby swap and Sam has a large Library at Castle Black in which he can find info on the WW. No need for a trip to Oldtown.
According to info from Audition scripts Jaime in the Riverlands is either not happening or will be late on in the season
after he does stuff in Dorne.
I can see Trystane and Quentyn being merged into one character (even though T was referred to as the younger son in an earlier season).
The Iron Born Uncles will be reduced down to just Euron if not cut all together. Dany already has a fleet of ships so doesn't need Victarion turning up with his fleet.
I speculate that they will combine Gendry and Jon Conningtons ward. Then Tyrion will meet up with them as he does in the book.
Not sure how that would work out.
Would Connington be a Robert supporter or are you suggesting they are going to pass Gendry off as a Targ?
If Gendry does come back to the show the only role I can see him taking is that of Hyle Hunt so he joins up with Brienne and Pod (possibly doing so to get revenge on the BwB).
Maybe George has written himself into a corner he doesn't know how to get out of, and he's waiting for the TV series to rescue him and give him some ideas.
I wonder if he'll have to credit any of the script writing team on the last two books, after all, if he hasn't even written them yet, is he going to run into copyright issues over what the characters do, given that the scriptwriters are going to be providing the material first? They're not going to be adapting anything for him, they're going to be finishing off the project.
It's not going to matter what George writes in the last of the books, the TV series will have finished it off nicely for the majority of his fans.
Maybe George has written himself into a corner he doesn't know how to get out of, and he's waiting for the TV series to rescue him and give him some ideas.
I wonder if he'll have to credit any of the script writing team on the last two books, after all, if he hasn't even written them yet, is he going to run into copyright issues over what the characters do, given that the scriptwriters are going to be providing the material first? They're not going to be adapting anything for him, they're going to be finishing off the project.
It's not going to matter what George writes in the last of the books, the TV series will have finished it off nicely for the majority of his fans.
Winds of Winter was already partly written when Dance with Dragons came out. He's been writing it for 3 years now.
I haven't read the books (so don't quite even know why I'm venturing into this thread...) but I do know about Lady Stoneheart after reading about it online. I was diasappointed that she didn't appear in the season 4 finale.
I have a question though - is she still in the books up to this point or has her 'storyline' been resolved?
Comments
I've heard suggestions that there will only be 2 more seasons, possibly 3. If that's true then story lines will be simplified and a lot of the end game will have to be set in motion in season 5.
Knowing GRRM I think he would be happy for the TV show to wrap things up in it's own way and he'll just continue writing the novels at the pace he's happy. Most of the main outcomes will be the same but the overall narrative will be completely different.
Well let's hope at the least the producers get a full series notice of any cancellation - so they can bring the series to a conclusion - even if rather rapidly. But with viewer numbers rising with every series, it's hard at the moment to imagine that viewer numbers would fall in the next two seasons to the extent that would lead to cancellation. I suppose an acting change for any of the lead characters could be disastrous though.
Well Seasons 5 and 6 have already been given the go ahead.
The showrunners have ruled out 10 seasons but in the past have talked about telling an 80 - 90 hour story (ie 8 or 9 seasons).
More recent interviews have them talking about 70 plus hours so I think 7 or 8 seasons is the most likely outcome possibly with a Season 7 part 1 and 2 rather than an official Season 8 as that would work out cheaper with regards to the Actors contracts.
Yes, I was expecting that we'll end with part 1 and 2 spaced out over a year. I'm sure that HBO would keep the series going for as long as they could but actor commitments will make that impossible. The cast is just too large.
I thought there was no big set up whatsoever this season for Stoneheart. People just expected some big twist because it's what came in the books.
To be honest I'm kinda glad they didn't go for some fanwanky end of season twist outta nowhere. When they do the reveal I want there to be a build up. The Stoneheart plot is perfect for a whole season of mystery with the Freys being knocked off by a unknown presence before you find out who is behind it.
The producers say seven.
Series 5: AFFC / ADOD
Series 6: TWOW
Series 7: ADOS
TWOW will be released just after Series 5 has been shown in summer 2015 I guess, just in time to be filmed for series 6. The script writers can read the manuscript before the publishers turn it in to book format.
GRRM then has one year to write ADOS, which does not seem realistic and he's talking about eight books now.
The books and television series may end differently, I agree that he shows no signs of wanting to change his writing pace. If the books were hurried and suffered quality wise would that be worth it just to keep up with the television series?
The rule for the series so far seems to be the longer he takes to write the worse the book is.
I've read nothing that suggests his writing quality has improved with the last 2 books, they are undoubtedly inferior to the first 3.
No big set up, but plenty of signs. They were always talking about Catelyn's death, more so than Robbs. Sansa even went into great detail about her mother's throat being sliced to the bone. The previous season went through the process of informing the viewer that it is possible to be brought back to life several times through r'hllor. Which as a book reader makes you immediately think this is foreshadowing for the reveal of Stoneheart. Couple this with the pisstake photo Lena Headey put up on Instagram of a pile of stones made into a heart and it seemed to almost confirm it was happening.
The ending they did do seemed far too rushed. Brienne and Arya meeting? Brienne getting the better of The Hound? Arya suddenly finding Brienne's horse and trotting along to the shore and off on a ship to bravvos, all within the blink of an eye. There was nothing about the ending that felt made me feel like I can't wait to find out what is happening next.
Arya was riding her own pony in that scene. The one that The Hound stole for her a couple of episodes back.
You think
I doubt that a year is long enough for for GRRM just to come up with all the names of the extra characters he's going to add.
That makes a bit more sense thinking about it, but as we hadn't seen Arya with the horse since, i'd forgotten about it. I just found that end sequence a bit rushed. Maybe comparing it to how slow the pace of the books has become, it was a bit jarring.
I'm guessing the missing Horse is down to filming locations.
Icelandic Law does not allow outside Horses to be brought into Iceland.
All the scenes we saw The Hound/Arya walking (the Bloody Gate/fight with Brienne) were filmed in Iceland while earlier scenes (plus the penultimate scene of Arya on the horse) were in Northern Ireland.
Same applies to Brienne/Pod which is why their horses suddenly disappeared.
Strange that they gave an explanation of Brienne/Pod's horses going missing but did not do the same for Arya/Hound.
The same thing happened back when the Nights Watch rode north. As far as Crasters Keep they had lots of Horses but by the time they get to the Fist of the First Men (filmed in Iceland) most of the Horses are gone and those they have are suddenly the smaller Icelandic Horses.
I've read through the entire book series twice now, I didn't notice the last two being worse than the first three. I found myself totally gripped, immersed in a world in chaos, following the characters as they move through it, I don't need massive set pieces and constant battles to keep a book interesting, I like descriptions of everyday life, they help to paint the pictures in my head, and keep it all realistic.
For instance people keep saying how the Daenerys chapters are boring and she's stuck in Meereen doing nothing, except getting hot over her sellsword. The way I read it is she's in Meereen learning how to rule, and watching over a steady decline due to subversion and resistance from the original inhabitants, it's a lesson in how not to conquer, because no-one is happy, not the masters (obviously) but not even the slaves who are now free to starve to death on the streets. She does her best to rectify things, but everything she does just makes the situation worse. Not boring at all.
Sill I think the main problem with the last two books is the lack of the next book. It leaves so much unresolved.
I agree, I almost wish I'd not started reading the series now. It would be much better if the books came out at regular intervals, one a year maybe. The problem is that Mr Martin seems to be rather enjoying his celebrity status a lot more than he likes writing the story! Plus he's completed a whole raft of other projects since he started the series, it makes me cross.
I can see them making the most book-to-TV changes to date for season 5. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the likes of Bran and Sansa considering they've almost reached the end of their book material already.
Brienne's journey, slow though it was, was a slow burn of intrigue as you never really knew what she'd discover and whether she would actually find Allayne or the truth about Arya.
The only story that slightly grated was Daenerys' but that's more to do with how naive and inept she was than anything else.
On the topic of squeezing two books into 10 episodes I honestly can't see how they can do it without cutting entire plots - thus revealing to us book readers which are key and which are simply fluff.
Off the top of my head the season would need to include:
* Jaime: goes to Riverrun where we discover what became of the Blackfish and Edmure post-Red Wedding.
* Cat of the canal/the Little Blind Girl
* "Arya Stark"'s wedding to Ramsay Bolton
* Davos recruiting Wyman Manderly and the events at Winterfell
* Stannis marching his army south and the battle with Asha's troops
* Sam and Gilly: the baby swap, the trip south, the sex, the close encounter with Cat of the Canals
* Tyrion: his journey to Meereen, slavery and the redemption of Jorah Mormont
* Jon Connington, his Targaryen friend and the whereabouts of The Golden Company
* Balon Greyjoy's death (completing Stannis's prophecy), the Kingsmoot and the skirmishes in the West
* The kidnap and mutilation of Myrcella
* Quentyn's destiny, his journey and the eventual outcome
* The election of a new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
* The death of Mance Rayder
* The redemption of Reek
* The final scene at the wall
* Bran and Weirwood.Net
* Allayne's future
* Brienne and Pod's journey
* The reappearance of Gendry
* Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners vs the Freys
* Sam, Oldtown and the Citadel
* Lancel and the re-emergence of the religious paramilitaries
* The fate of Grand Maester Pycell
* Loris and his adventures on Dragonstone
* Daenerys Stormborn vs Meereen and the oncoming Battle of Slavers Bay
* Dragon Riding
* The Quiet Isle / Gravedigger Theory
* The resettlement of the wildlings in The Gift
All of that in one season??? (and I'm sure I've missed some).
Anyone want to bet on which plots were red herrings and which will be key in the final books?
I take the point but I really enjoyed AFFC, although I agree considering it took five years to write, very little seem to happen. I'm just working my way though ADOD now.
It would help if he was a bit better organised, so the two big battles had been in ADOD, then people wouldn't keep pestering him for TWOW all the time.
I hope we get to see what happens with Brienne and podrick ?
Unless GRRM has something major planned for Gendry in Book 6 or 7 I doubt we'll see him in the show again. In the book he's still with the BwB (or a faction of them anyway) but that obviously won't be the case in the show after they sold him to Mel.
I doubt we will see Sam/Gilly leave the Wall. There probably won't even be a Mance/Dalla baby so no need for a baby swap and Sam has a large Library at Castle Black in which he can find info on the WW. No need for a trip to Oldtown.
According to info from Audition scripts Jaime in the Riverlands is either not happening or will be late on in the season
I can see Trystane and Quentyn being merged into one character (even though T was referred to as the younger son in an earlier season).
The Iron Born Uncles will be reduced down to just Euron if not cut all together. Dany already has a fleet of ships so doesn't need Victarion turning up with his fleet.
Not sure how that would work out.
Would Connington be a Robert supporter or are you suggesting they are going to pass Gendry off as a Targ?
If Gendry does come back to the show the only role I can see him taking is that of Hyle Hunt so he joins up with Brienne and Pod (possibly doing so to get revenge on the BwB).
I wonder if he'll have to credit any of the script writing team on the last two books, after all, if he hasn't even written them yet, is he going to run into copyright issues over what the characters do, given that the scriptwriters are going to be providing the material first? They're not going to be adapting anything for him, they're going to be finishing off the project.
It's not going to matter what George writes in the last of the books, the TV series will have finished it off nicely for the majority of his fans.
Winds of Winter was already partly written when Dance with Dragons came out. He's been writing it for 3 years now.
I have a question though - is she still in the books up to this point or has her 'storyline' been resolved?