The taxpayers on the hook for bailing out Greek banks are not Greek. If leaders of other countries are looking to belatedly look after their electorate by not exposing them to more money being flushed away then surely they are doing their job. Greeks need to start paying tax. Should the remaining EU call a referendum to ask if more taxpayers money should be spent on Greece? Hmm... what would the result be?
It was French and German banks who did most of the lending to Greece (how many times do I have to say this to make it register with some?) so they are by far the biggest beneficiaries of the bail out.
The president of the European parliament, Martin Schulz, reflecting the deep anger felt in Brussels at the erratic negotiating tactics adopted by Tsipras and Varoufakis, said Greek voters should blame Tsipras for bringing the country to its knees.
Schulz said: “New elections would be necessary if the Greek people vote for the reform programme and thus for remaining in the eurozone and Tsipras, as a logical consequence, resigns.” In an outburst that was extraordinary coming from the most senior official in the EU parliament, he argued that the radical left Syriza government should be replaced by a technocratic administration.
“If this transitional government reaches a reasonable agreement with the creditors, then Syriza’s time would be over,” he said. “Then Greece has another chance.”
A 'transitional government', interesting description of a coup. I've said before that a coup in Greece isn't likely, but don't rule it out.
I've lost count of how many times I, and others, have pointed out it was a right wing government that got Greece into unsustainable debt, and provided links showing that. Do you have some sort of mental block that makes you believe all economic problems are caused by socialists, and you just can't see evidence proving the contrary?
I've lost count of how many times I, and others, have pointed out it was a right wing government that got Greece into unsustainable debt, and provided links showing that. Do you have some sort of mental block that makes you believe all economic problems are caused by socialists, and you just can't see evidence proving the contrary?
The Government that lied about Greece's debt and deficit levels to get into the Eurozone was PASOK - the major centre left party in greek politics. How that translates into it all being the fault of the right-wing government (New democracy?) I dont quite see.
Are you seriously suggesting that the state of the Greek economy is due to a government that was elected at the end of January this year - with a view to rectifying the German-backed Troika regime of vicious austerity, that didn't work?
Really?
You keep making these hyperbolic comments about Syriza swooping in to "rectify" the situation but the detail of is somewhat lacking.
What was Syriza's grand plan? And did it, by any chance, involve the further spending of multiples of billions of euros?
The Government that lied about Greece's debt and deficit levels to get into the Eurozone was PASOK - the major centre left party in greek politics. How that translates into it all being the fault of the right-wing government (New democracy?) I dont quite see.
Cos ND were in government from 2004 to 2009 when most of the debt was built up at ultra low Eurozone rates. Like Blair and Brown here ND just spent to excess in that period.
Tariffs work both ways in that if a country or trading bloc charges tariffs on imports from a country or trading bloc it can expect reciprocal tariffs to be imposed on its exports to that country or trading bloc. This is why the WTO is working to remove such behaviour and create world wide free trade.
I've long assumed, rightly or wrongly, that a sensible offer on one side would lead to a similarly sensible offer on the other. I'm quite sure that Trade Tariff Armageddon is EU scaremongering.
The IMF also cut its forecast for Greek economic growth from 2.5% to zero.
No flies on these IMF folk. There was me predicting 10% growth, the IMF sees straight through all the fudge and predicts 0%. Where would we be without these paragons of economic wisdom? I mean, predicting 0% growth for a country that's bankrupt, hopeless and pretty much beyond help is no mean feat.
That said, not sure how such financial masterminds managed to get involved in lending to a country that's accrued £300,000,000,000 in debts. Maybe it was just a glitch.
So the IMF are saying that basically that the current debt repayment is not viable, and it needs to be re-structured, or am I reading it wrong,
Or has this thread gone so of topic that it's become a battle between socialism and capitalism and the blame game, and the the uk's partication in the the European Union.
Cos ND were in government from 2004 to 2009 when most of the debt was built up at ultra low Eurozone rates. Like Blair and Brown here ND just spent to excess in that period.
Were they just borrowing to cover the previous levels of excessive spending? Just as the coalition AND Labour had to borrow to cover Labour's excessive spending.
Their crazy rules on pensions and spending on the Railways and culture of not paying tax, happened BEFORE joining the Euro.
Were they just borrowing to cover the previous levels of excessive spending? Just as the coalition AND Labour had to borrow to cover Labour's excessive spending.
Their crazy rules on pensions and spending on the Railways and culture of not paying tax, happened BEFORE joining the Euro.
Well a lot of money was spent for the Olympics in 2004, an event that probably a small nation like Greece could not afford, however it was their choice. The ND party did nothing to change anything however they indulged the public sector to buy votes.
More debt they cannot afford to repay or service, a debt write down is their own ly chance to rebuild their economy, the Germans and the French have to accept that their politician's and bankers have basically lent money that could ensure bankruptcy without state intervention at some of their well known banking names.
In Germany Deutsche Bank is on the hook for at least €30 billion, France will likely see insolvency at Credit Agricole, BNP Paribas not to mention the affect a Greek default and bankruptcy will have on other nations and banks who stupidly lent them money.
If I'm being truthfull regardless of the outcome of the referendum if it's held or PM Tzparis government falls as a result the Greek people have had enough and it's very likely they will not accept further austerity as it is likely to be deeper & last for decades stirring up resentment.
And I find it frankly laughable anyone especial the deluded fools in Brussels believe that the fall of Syrizia and the appointment of Samaras will bring any credibility to the table, Samaras is a corrupt buffoon, he like many of the old guard in Greek politics moved his money offshore ensuring once the inevitable happen he still retained his wealth, he is a hated individual, Syrizia at least has popular support behind it but the election of Samaras back as PM will fracture the nation, Samaras has been known to say he would sacrifice or slash military spending to the bone if re elected, can't anyone put their hand on their heart and say the generals will embrace and accept that, I can't.
Greece cannot afford to service even half it's current debts, further austerity will not revive the economy, the only way forward is debt write down but that would be like writing a suicide note for the ruling parties in Paris & Berlin if they even consider it.
More debt they cannot afford to repay or service, a debt write down is their own ly chance to rebuild their economy, the Germans and the French have to accept that their politician's and bankers have basically lent money that could ensure bankruptcy without state intervention at some of their well known banking names.
In Germany Deutsche Bank is on the hook for at least €30 billion, France will likely see insolvency at Credit Agricole, BNP Paribas not to mention the affect a Greek default and bankruptcy will have on other nations and banks who stupidly lent them money.
If I'm being truthfull regardless of the outcome of the referendum if it's held or PM Tzparis government falls as a result the Greek people have had enough and it's very likely they will not accept further austerity as it is likely to be deeper & last for decades stirring up resentment.
And I find it frankly laughable anyone especial the deluded fools in Brussels believe that the fall of Syrizia and the appointment of Samaras will bring any credibility to the table, Samaras is a corrupt buffoon, he like many of the old guard in Greek politics moved his money offshore ensuring once the inevitable happen he still retained his wealth, he is a hated individual, Syrizia at least has popular support behind it but the election of Samaras back as PM will fracture the nation, Samaras has been known to say he would sacrifice or slash military spending to the bone if re elected, can't anyone put their hand on their heart and say the generals will embrace and accept that, I can't.
Greece cannot afford to service even half it's current debts, further austerity will not revive the economy, the only way forward is debt write down but that would be like writing a suicide note for the ruling parties in Paris & Berlin if they even consider it.
Apologies for the rather long post.
"Popular support" :D
36.4% of the Greek electorate voted for Syriza. That's stretching the definition of popular support to the frayed end of the elasticity scale.
Well a lot of money was spent for the Olympics in 2004, an event that probably a small nation like Greece could not afford, however it was their choice. The ND party did nothing to change anything however they indulged the public sector to buy votes.
You are right, a LOT of money was spent on the 2004 games, and most of the cash for the upgrades in Greek infrastructure came in the form of loans and grants from the EU.
Anyone who was around Greece on holiday around the time of the games would have thought that the country had money to burn. Wherever you looked, new roads were being built, and every one had a sign trumpeting that it was thanks to EU funding. Now, that's fine as far as it went, but now the Greeks have these roads, they now have to pay for their upkeep and that is beyond their budget as many of them were built very badly indeed.
As for the Greeks leaving the Euro, I still feel that if they did it would be in the best long term interests of the Greek economy and people.
Unlike the shining examples of being good citizens and paying your tax that we see in the UK. For example, Google, Apple, Vodafone, Starbucks, Goldman Sachs, HSBC, if only the Greeks would act like them!
The examples you quote are not citizens, they are global corporations.
I'm not saying that they don't need pursuing and dealing with, but it's a bit more complicated than making every citizen file a tax return and every business issue a VAT receipt.
The UK is not on the verge of bankruptcy, has not defaulted on IMF loans, and is not asking for more troika funding - the UK is a net contributor to the EU.
The 'grey' market in Greece is estimated to be €65 billion (this is about 25% of Greece's GDP), with €20 billion in unpaid tax each year. Tax evasion in Greece is described by Greek commentators as a 'national sport'.
Comments
It was French and German banks who did most of the lending to Greece (how many times do I have to say this to make it register with some?) so they are by far the biggest beneficiaries of the bail out.
No. Do you think it fair that any countries should bail out banks?
Here's a clue to the thinking in the EU.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/imf-greece-needs-extra-50bn-euros
The president of the European parliament, Martin Schulz, reflecting the deep anger felt in Brussels at the erratic negotiating tactics adopted by Tsipras and Varoufakis, said Greek voters should blame Tsipras for bringing the country to its knees.
Schulz said: “New elections would be necessary if the Greek people vote for the reform programme and thus for remaining in the eurozone and Tsipras, as a logical consequence, resigns.”
In an outburst that was extraordinary coming from the most senior official in the EU parliament, he argued that the radical left Syriza government should be replaced by a technocratic administration.
“If this transitional government reaches a reasonable agreement with the creditors, then Syriza’s time would be over,” he said. “Then Greece has another chance.”
A 'transitional government', interesting description of a coup. I've said before that a coup in Greece isn't likely, but don't rule it out.
I've lost count of how many times I, and others, have pointed out it was a right wing government that got Greece into unsustainable debt, and provided links showing that. Do you have some sort of mental block that makes you believe all economic problems are caused by socialists, and you just can't see evidence proving the contrary?
The Government that lied about Greece's debt and deficit levels to get into the Eurozone was PASOK - the major centre left party in greek politics. How that translates into it all being the fault of the right-wing government (New democracy?) I dont quite see.
You keep making these hyperbolic comments about Syriza swooping in to "rectify" the situation but the detail of is somewhat lacking.
What was Syriza's grand plan? And did it, by any chance, involve the further spending of multiples of billions of euros?
Cos ND were in government from 2004 to 2009 when most of the debt was built up at ultra low Eurozone rates. Like Blair and Brown here ND just spent to excess in that period.
I've long assumed, rightly or wrongly, that a sensible offer on one side would lead to a similarly sensible offer on the other. I'm quite sure that Trade Tariff Armageddon is EU scaremongering.
No flies on these IMF folk. There was me predicting 10% growth, the IMF sees straight through all the fudge and predicts 0%. Where would we be without these paragons of economic wisdom? I mean, predicting 0% growth for a country that's bankrupt, hopeless and pretty much beyond help is no mean feat.
That said, not sure how such financial masterminds managed to get involved in lending to a country that's accrued £300,000,000,000 in debts. Maybe it was just a glitch.
Or has this thread gone so of topic that it's become a battle between socialism and capitalism and the blame game, and the the uk's partication in the the European Union.
Their crazy rules on pensions and spending on the Railways and culture of not paying tax, happened BEFORE joining the Euro.
More debt they cannot afford to repay or service, a debt write down is their own ly chance to rebuild their economy, the Germans and the French have to accept that their politician's and bankers have basically lent money that could ensure bankruptcy without state intervention at some of their well known banking names.
In Germany Deutsche Bank is on the hook for at least €30 billion, France will likely see insolvency at Credit Agricole, BNP Paribas not to mention the affect a Greek default and bankruptcy will have on other nations and banks who stupidly lent them money.
If I'm being truthfull regardless of the outcome of the referendum if it's held or PM Tzparis government falls as a result the Greek people have had enough and it's very likely they will not accept further austerity as it is likely to be deeper & last for decades stirring up resentment.
And I find it frankly laughable anyone especial the deluded fools in Brussels believe that the fall of Syrizia and the appointment of Samaras will bring any credibility to the table, Samaras is a corrupt buffoon, he like many of the old guard in Greek politics moved his money offshore ensuring once the inevitable happen he still retained his wealth, he is a hated individual, Syrizia at least has popular support behind it but the election of Samaras back as PM will fracture the nation, Samaras has been known to say he would sacrifice or slash military spending to the bone if re elected, can't anyone put their hand on their heart and say the generals will embrace and accept that, I can't.
Greece cannot afford to service even half it's current debts, further austerity will not revive the economy, the only way forward is debt write down but that would be like writing a suicide note for the ruling parties in Paris & Berlin if they even consider it.
Apologies for the rather long post.
He is the speaker of the European parliament. That kind of comment is not appropriate from him. It also shows how Anti democratic the EU is.
"Popular support"
36.4% of the Greek electorate voted for Syriza. That's stretching the definition of popular support to the frayed end of the elasticity scale.
You are right, a LOT of money was spent on the 2004 games, and most of the cash for the upgrades in Greek infrastructure came in the form of loans and grants from the EU.
Anyone who was around Greece on holiday around the time of the games would have thought that the country had money to burn. Wherever you looked, new roads were being built, and every one had a sign trumpeting that it was thanks to EU funding. Now, that's fine as far as it went, but now the Greeks have these roads, they now have to pay for their upkeep and that is beyond their budget as many of them were built very badly indeed.
As for the Greeks leaving the Euro, I still feel that if they did it would be in the best long term interests of the Greek economy and people.
It was 36% of the vote - like the Tories in May, in fact.
You have a problem with either result?
It's probably true. Democracy isn't popular in Brussels.
Tbh I don't find that beyond the realms of possibilities, they replaced an Italian PM with one of their bureaucrats.
They did it in Greece with Papandreou. Told him to resign because he proposed a referendum. China, Russia and North Korea would be proud.
What in your opinion is the right way?
The examples you quote are not citizens, they are global corporations.
I'm not saying that they don't need pursuing and dealing with, but it's a bit more complicated than making every citizen file a tax return and every business issue a VAT receipt.
The UK is not on the verge of bankruptcy, has not defaulted on IMF loans, and is not asking for more troika funding - the UK is a net contributor to the EU.
The 'grey' market in Greece is estimated to be €65 billion (this is about 25% of Greece's GDP), with €20 billion in unpaid tax each year. Tax evasion in Greece is described by Greek commentators as a 'national sport'.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2015/07/20150702_handels1.jpg