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Back to Camelot: Season 4 - Knights, Camelot, Agravaine!

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    Lem_1Lem_1 Posts: 423
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    Mmm, I've never been an expert before, I like it. And it sounds much better than 'sad geek' or obsessive fangirl'.

    There won't be any need for fanfic will there? It sounds like it is already written.

    Fanatical experts are always the best sort as they are so passionate about their subject.....and it does sound better than 'obsessive'. However, I'm quite proud to be a geek but maybe that's because most of my friends are geeks too!

    As for fanfic, I think (given the subject matter), there is more of a possibility of the predicted sex riot happening over Mojo than over The Tempest. There you go, new storyline for all you writers out there.
    myselfandi wrote: »
    Speaking of Mojo, are y'all planning on going to the stage door? Someone tweeted Mon. night that she waited 3 hours in the bitter cold of London in order to see Colin. :eek: I'm not sure I'd wait for 3 hours even in the bitter cold of San Diego.:o

    3 hours :eek:
    Given some of the stage door photos from Twitter, it looks like total chaos. Problem is that almost everyone of the cast has some sort of fan following so that will exponentially increase the number of nutters (sorry, fans!) that crowd the stage door after the show. Might give this one a miss or consider other tactics.
    Avi8 wrote: »
    Whoever said she waited in the bitter cold of London must be from San Diego! It isn't that cold here at the moment. Well, I am one of the ones going, but I am not aware of any plans to go to the stage door as yet. I would if others wanted to, but not for 3 hours because I would rather be sitting somewhere comfortable eating and drinking! Lem is the person to talk to about waiting in the bitter cold for hours. She has a track record. ;)

    Thanks Avi, make me out to be a weird obsessive fan.......oh, whoops, maybe I am? :confused:
    Yes, it was freezing cold and snowing and I queued for 8 hours but I met some nice people and it was SO worth it!!! In my defence, I would like to point out, this was queuing for tickets, not at the stage door (I'm not that mad)
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    Have to agree with Avi. I fail to see how Uther's death could even remotely be pinned on Merlin, it's absolutely and utterly down to Morgana and Agravaine's scheming.
    I also, while not wishing to see the end of Tony Head, thought it was about time they offed Uther. It would have been a bit of a cop out having Arthur "ruling" because Uther was completely insane for any long period of time as he couldn't feel completely free of his father's wishes and beliefs.
    Sadly, TPTB never bloody moved Arthur's wishes and beliefs on either! :mad:

    But it WAS Merlin's actions that caused Uther to die. Of course it wasn't his intention, but if Merlin hadn't performed the magic, then it wouldn't have been reversed by Morgana's enchanted necklace and Uther wouldn't have died (or not immediately, anyway). Merlin would have been better off doing absolutely nothing, or letting Gaius give him . . . (searches in Gaius's book of remedies . . . finds the only entry) . . . a sleeping potion :D

    As for the stage door at Mojo . . . if it's insanely crowded (and I expect it will be) then I won't be bothering
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    Avi8Avi8 Posts: 3,077
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    Lem_1 wrote: »
    Fanatical experts are always the best sort as they are so passionate about their subject.....and it does sound better than 'obsessive'. However, I'm quite proud to be a geek but maybe that's because most of my friends are geeks too!

    I've no problem with geeks. All 4 of my children are geeks and proud of it!

    Thanks Avi, make me out to be a weird obsessive fan.......oh, whoops, maybe I am? :confused:
    Yes, it was freezing cold and snowing and I queued for 8 hours but I met some nice people and it was SO worth it!!! In my defence, I would like to point out, this was queuing for tickets, not at the stage door (I'm not that mad)

    I prefer to think of you as a theatre buff Lem. There is a long and distinguished history of theatre buffs queueing hours for tickets.
    Smint wrote: »
    But it WAS Merlin's actions that caused Uther to die. Of course it wasn't his intention, but if Merlin hadn't performed the magic, then it wouldn't have been reversed by Morgana's enchanted necklace and Uther wouldn't have died (or not immediately, anyway). Merlin would have been better off doing absolutely nothing, or letting Gaius give him . . . (searches in Gaius's book of remedies . . . finds the only entry) . . . a sleeping potion :D

    BIB: Well a) that is entirely inaccurate as it was already established by Gaius that Uther was dying and, short of using magic, there was nothing anyone could do to prevent this.

    And b) I can't believe you of all people Smint are using this illogical stance to argue that it was Merlin's fault that Uther died. That is like saying it is the pedestrian's fault for being out on the street when a bus mounts the pavement and kills them!

    It is obvious that:

    if magic had not been resorted to, Uther would have died.
    if Morgana had not enchanted the necklace, and Merlin had cast his spell, Uther would have lived.

    Therefore, it is Morgana's fault (and Agravaine's by virtue of the fact that he placed the necklace round Uther's neck) that Uther died.
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    star89star89 Posts: 24,186
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    It is obvious that:

    if magic had not been resorted to, Uther would have died.
    if Morgana had not enchanted the necklace, and Merlin had cast his spell, Uther would have lived.

    Therefore, it is Morgana's fault (and Agravaine's by virtue of the fact that he placed the necklace round Uther's neck) that Uther died.

    It is Morgana's fault that Uther died :)







    Although.. Technically it was Merlin that turned Morgana against Camelot so if he hadn't of poisoned her then she wouldn't have gone with Morgause, turned evil, over thrown Camelot and then took her revenge and killed Uther.

    So if you think about it; It is Merlin's fault ;)

    As I said before it's ALWAYS Merlin's fault :p:p
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    BIB: Well a) that is entirely inaccurate as it was already established by Gaius that Uther was dying and, short of using magic, there was nothing anyone could do to prevent this.

    And b) I can't believe you of all people Smint are using this illogical stance to argue that it was Merlin's fault that Uther died. That is like saying it is the pedestrian's fault for being out on the street when a bus mounts the pavement and kills them!

    It is obvious that:

    if magic had not been resorted to, Uther would have died.
    if Morgana had not enchanted the necklace, and Merlin had cast his spell, Uther would have lived.

    Therefore, it is Morgana's fault (and Agravaine's by virtue of the fact that he placed the necklace round Uther's neck) that Uther died.

    I did say - or not immediately. But Merlin's action directly caused Uther to die at that moment rather than later - which could have been hours/days/months - who knows? :)

    I'm not sure I agree with your analogy as that would have been closer to Merlin (the pedestrian) doing nothing. Merlin took action which directly led to Uther dying earlier than he would have - so more like the pedestrian throwing themselves in the path of the bus as it mounted the pavement :D

    But didn't King Odin really have ultimate responsibility for Uther's death? After all, it was him who sent Phil Daniels to kill Arthur and who stabs Uther. Merlin just ended Uther's life more quickly

    Or you could then argue that Arthur deciding to use magic to help his father was the deciding factor in his early demise . . . and that Morgana's and Agravaine actions in enchanting/placing the necklace were only undertaken because of Arthur's decision . . . and THEIR actions would have had no effect if Merlin hadn't used magic :)
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    Avi8Avi8 Posts: 3,077
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    star89 wrote: »
    As I said before it's ALWAYS Merlin's fault :p:p

    Ha! You and Arthur should get together. ;)
    Smint wrote: »
    I did say - or not immediately. But Merlin's action directly caused Uther to die at that moment rather than later - which could have been hours/days/months - who knows? :)

    I'm not sure I agree with your analogy as that would have been closer to Merlin (the pedestrian) doing nothing. Merlin took action which directly led to Uther dying earlier than he would have - so more like the pedestrian throwing themselves in the path of the bus as it mounted the pavement :D

    No the analogy was rubbish, I realised that. I suppose it would be better to say Merlin is the pedestrian who sees the bus coming towards him and jumps out the way, not knowing Morgana has attached some elastic to him so that when he jumps, the elastic springs him back into the path of the bus....:rolleyes:

    Ok, ok, I am rubbish at analogies!
    But didn't King Odin really have ultimate responsibility for Uther's death? After all, it was him who sent Phil Daniels to kill Arthur and who stabs Uther. Merlin just ended Uther's life more quickly

    No I think we can establish that the responsibility begins at the point where Arthur decides to use magic to save Uther. Before that, Uther was definitely dying and it would have been Phil Davies' fault (who is this Phil Daniels of which you speak? :p) or Odin's, depending on how you argue it.

    But Arthur decides to use magic. The outcome of using Emrys' spell if Morgana had not done anything would have been that Uther would have lived. Agreed?

    So the fact that Emrys used a spell and Uther then died means that it is Morgana's intervention that caused Uther's death.
    Or you could then argue that Arthur deciding to use magic to help his father was the deciding factor in his early demise . . . and that Morgana's and Agravaine actions in enchanting/placing the necklace were only undertaken because of Arthur's decision . . . and THEIR actions would have had no effect if Merlin hadn't used magic :)

    In which case, then yes, it would have been Odin's or Phil Davies' fault.

    But never Merlin's! :D
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    No the analogy was rubbish, I realised that. I suppose it would be better to say Merlin is the pedestrian who sees the bus coming towards him and jumps out the way, not knowing Morgana has attached some elastic to him so that when he jumps, the elastic springs him back into the path of the bus....:rolleyes:

    Ok, ok, I am rubbish at analogies!

    :D

    I wondered at one point if you meant that Uther was the pedestrian and Merlin the bus driver . . . but that was getting me even MORE confused :D
    Avi8 wrote: »
    No I think we can establish that the responsibility begins at the point where Arthur decides to use magic to save Uther. Before that, Uther was definitely dying and it would have been Phil Davies' fault (who is this Phil Daniels of which you speak? :p) or Odin's, depending on how you argue it.

    But Arthur decides to use magic. The outcome of using Emrys' spell if Morgana had not done anything would have been that Uther would have lived. Agreed?

    So the fact that Emrys used a spell and Uther then died means that it is Morgana's intervention that caused Uther's death.

    That IS assuming that Merlin's magic would have worked ;)

    So you're actually saying that it was ARTHUR'S FAULT! :eek:
    Avi8 wrote: »
    But never Merlin's! :D

    I don't think star agrees ;)
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    Lem_1Lem_1 Posts: 423
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    Smint wrote: »

    That IS assuming that Merlin's magic would have worked ;)

    So you're actually saying that it was ARTHUR'S FAULT! :eek:

    I don't think star agrees ;)

    I think you're all wrong.
    If someone had given Uther a smack round the head about 25 years ago and pointed out it was a really bad idea to get on the wrong side of magic users (and to not be such a dreadful hypocrite and mass murderer) then he wouldn't have died in these circumstances!

    QED, it's Uther's fault. ;)
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    Avi8Avi8 Posts: 3,077
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    Lem_1 wrote: »
    I think you're all wrong.
    If someone had given Uther a smack round the head about 25 years ago and pointed out it was a really bad idea to get on the wrong side of magic users (and to not be such a dreadful hypocrite and mass murderer) then he wouldn't have died in these circumstances!

    QED, it's Uther's fault. ;)

    Of course, if Uther had never been born, none of this would have happened at all.

    I blame Uther's parents. :D
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    star89star89 Posts: 24,186
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    Ha! You and Arthur should get together. ;)

    You won't hear any complaints from me ;):p

    Queen Star has a certain ring to it :D
    Avi8 wrote: »
    But never Merlin's! :D

    Pffttt :p
    Smint wrote: »
    I don't think star agrees ;)

    She does not ;)
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    Lem_1 wrote: »
    I think you're all wrong.
    If someone had given Uther a smack round the head about 25 years ago and pointed out it was a really bad idea to get on the wrong side of magic users (and to not be such a dreadful hypocrite and mass murderer) then he wouldn't have died in these circumstances!

    QED, it's Uther's fault. ;)

    But . . . the revenge attack was because Arthur had killed Odin's son . . . so it could be Odin's son's fault for the challenge/being a bad fighter, or Odin for bringing up his son so that he felt the need to fight Arthur . . . or the lack of a mentioned mother/wife figure to prevent the challenge/revenge . . . or that Odin had his favourite toy stolen when he was a child . . . or that Odin's son didn't have a name . . . or all sorts of things! :D
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    Lem_1Lem_1 Posts: 423
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    Smint wrote: »
    But . . . the revenge attack was because Arthur had killed Odin's son . . . so it could be Odin's son's fault for the challenge/being a bad fighter, or Odin for bringing up his son so that he felt the need to fight Arthur . . . or the lack of a mentioned mother/wife figure to prevent the challenge/revenge . . . or that Odin had his favourite toy stolen when he was a child . . . or that Odin's son didn't have a name . . . or all sorts of things! :D

    Yup - the butterfly effect is evident in the mystical lands of legend as well as our own dull world.

    So many "what ifs" are what makes fanfic fun.

    Although I still blame Uther for the entire mess of season 5! ;)
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    RazzylewRazzylew Posts: 737
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    And b) I can't believe you of all people Smint are using this illogical stance to argue that it was Merlin's fault that Uther died. That is like saying it is the pedestrian's fault for being out on the street when a bus mounts the pavement and kills them!
    .
    Or a lorry running over an homeless looking man walking on the road (not even a pavement :eek:) near a lake... no wait, that would just be putting someone out of their misery :D
    star89 wrote: »
    It is Morgana's fault that Uther died :)

    Although.. Technically it was Merlin that turned Morgana against Camelot so if he hadn't of poisoned her then she wouldn't have gone with Morgause, turned evil, over thrown Camelot and then took her revenge and killed Uther.

    So if you think about it; It is Merlin's fault ;)

    As I said before it's ALWAYS Merlin's fault :p:p

    Merlin poisoning Morgana was just the final straw - If Uther hadn't refused to acknowledge that Morgana was his daughter she never would have got so bitter towards Camelot in the first place and been taken in by her sister - So it's Uther's fault!
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    Avi8Avi8 Posts: 3,077
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    star89 wrote: »
    Merlin not helping Morgana in 2x03 was the problem. All he had to do was tell her the truth, tell her Uther would never change but together they could make sure Arthur didn't follow in his father's footsteps. A seer would be extremely helpful in Merlin's destiny to keep Arthur safe. Together Merlin and Morgana could have protected Arthur until he was ready to be king. Then when the time was right, they could have come clean to him about their magic, not all magic is evil yadda yadda yadda.. Arthur lifts the ban and bob's your uncle Merlin's destiny is complete :D

    Yes, that would have been a lovely solution. IF Merlin had been able to tell Morgana his secret in 2:03. But he couldn't. That is the whole point. He had to keep the magic secret. I don't see why Morgana should be considered so trustworthy when Merlin was unable to tell even Arthur his secret.
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    star89star89 Posts: 24,186
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    Yes, that would have been a lovely solution. IF Merlin had been able to tell Morgana his secret in 2:03. But he couldn't. That is the whole point. He had to keep the magic secret. I don't see why Morgana should be considered so trustworthy when Merlin was unable to tell even Arthur his secret.

    Because Arthur believed magic was evil, Morgana did not.

    Don't make me find the essay Avi :eek::p:p
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    L.B.L.B. Posts: 198
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    Its interesting that a few days into The Tempest and we had various stage photos emerging - but so far, I have yet to see one photo from Mojo. I wonder if there's stricter security there?
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    CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,412
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    L.B. wrote: »
    Its interesting that a few days into The Tempest and we had various stage photos emerging - but so far, I have yet to see one photo from Mojo. I wonder if there's stricter security there?

    Sounds like it doesn't it, or possibly it's because it's a "traditional" theatre so it's far more obvious if you get your phone out to take a picture.
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    NatarhiNatarhi Posts: 4,098
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    Smint wrote: »
    Some stage door photos of Colin here

    Certainly living up to his character's name

    I want to give him a hug and a hot dinner
    Maybe it's because he was so ill at the end of August? Or maybe he had to lose weight for the role?
    Avi8 wrote: »
    No she won't! Mind you, with the cast that there is, I can imagine there will be an even greater proportion of the audience there to sigh over their boy than there was at the Globe. Even someone like Rupert Grint must have a huge following. I will opt for the middle aged Brendan Coyle!
    Harsh Avi, very harsh. :p
    Avi8 wrote: »
    Oh no, have you tripped over the cable and pulled it out?
    I wish. No I have no wifi at my new flat and won't be connected to proper internet for another 2 weeks! :eek::cry:
    Lem_1 wrote: »
    BIB - might be needing that "to bring for Karen" list to include smelling salts!
    Don't worry the to-bring list is back.
    Smint wrote: »
    In the "Magic has no place in Camelot" episode. All these promises . . . none of them delivered . . . *sigh*
    That **@$!*% episode. :mad:
    Smint wrote: »
    I know he was trying to help, but he just (inadvertently) made things worse and Uther died
    What really annoyed me about it was the way that Merlin and Gaius didn't tell Arthur about the necklace. Arthur knows that Morgana is out to get him so he'd have no reason not to believe them, it would have let Drogoon off the hook and it could have raised the issue of there being a traitor as well. Bloody idiotic fools.
    star89 wrote: »
    I really like The moment of truth (is it?) Series one. The once and future Queen and I also like the last episodes to series 3
    I love all of those too. Also Queen of Hearts and Gwaine and Labyrinth of Gedref and The Beginning of the End.
    Avi8 wrote: »
    All good episodes. But I am going to push you. Each episode is on one disc and the tide is coming in. Which one are you going to save?
    star89 wrote: »
    Well logically Avi, I can carry more than one disc so I could save more than one from the tide :rolleyes:
    LOL. :D

    I would probably also choose The Once and Future Queen, but Gwaine is a very close second, and 3.13 would be third, so maybe I'll just keep all of those in one case. :p
    Smint wrote: »
    Merlin would have been better off doing absolutely nothing, or letting Gaius give him . . . (searches in Gaius's book of remedies . . . finds the only entry) . . . a sleeping potion
    Lol. :D
    Smint wrote: »
    That IS assuming that Merlin's magic would have worked
    Big assumption considering he'd never managed to heal anyone of anything up to this point. Useless. :rolleyes:
    Razzylew wrote: »
    Or a lorry running over an homeless looking man walking on the road (not even a pavement) near a lake... no wait, that would just be putting someone out of their misery :D
    LMAO!
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    And introducing . . . <drum roll> . . . Tom Hopper with HAIR!!!

    (Second from the right, in case you need help recognising him ;))
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    star89star89 Posts: 24,186
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    Natarhi wrote: »
    I would probably also choose The Once and Future Queen, but Gwaine is a very close second, and 3.13 would be third, so maybe I'll just keep all of those in one case. :p

    :eek::eek: We are the same person ;):D:D:D:D
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    Thanks Lem_1 for the link to this blog about Mojo


    I’d guess the best seats to be around C7 or so, though house right has the benefit of being closer to some of the better parts of the action. If I were able to buy any seat in the house, it would be C5 or 6.

    And you know which seats WE have :D
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    Avi8Avi8 Posts: 3,077
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    Smint wrote: »
    Thanks Lem_1 for the link to this blog about Mojo


    I’d guess the best seats to be around C7 or so, though house right has the benefit of being closer to some of the better parts of the action. If I were able to buy any seat in the house, it would be C5 or 6.

    And you know which seats WE have :D

    Was that serendipity or did you have insider knowledge Smint? Well done, anyway.
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    SmintSmint Posts: 4,701
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    Was that serendipity or did you have insider knowledge Smint? Well done, anyway.

    I'd like to say insider knowledge, research and incredible amounts of planning . . . but it was just luck ;)

    It was the closest row to the front where I could get enough seats all together . . . and the fact they were on the right was just because my mouse moved in that direction when I selected them :D
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    myselfandimyselfandi Posts: 211
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    Avi8 wrote: »
    Whoever said she waited in the bitter cold of London must be from San Diego!

    I think she was French. So a lightweight by your standards.
    Avi8 wrote: »
    Yes, that would have been a lovely solution. IF Merlin had been able to tell Morgana his secret in 2:03. But he couldn't. That is the whole point. He had to keep the magic secret. I don't see why Morgana should be considered so trustworthy when Merlin was unable to tell even Arthur his secret.

    A major reason Merlin never told Morgana was because the big lizard with John Hurt's voice told him never to trust her. Would you do something that John Hurt told you not to?

    Also, I *ahem* feel that Morgana couldn't be trusted. Look at the events of To Kill a King and The Nightmare Begins. In both those episodes, she was fairly narcissistic about ignoring the fallout for others. In her defense (this is a rationale not an excuse) she was a terrified young woman and had clearly been so for a long time.

    As for Uther's death, Morgana with a little help from Agravaine tricked Merlin into doing it. Odin precipitated the events but magic would have saved Uther if not for Morgana being one step ahead of Merlin.
    Smint wrote: »
    And introducing . . . <drum roll> . . . Tom Hopper with HAIR!!!

    (Second from the right, in case you need help recognising him ;))

    HE STILL HAS NO SLEEVES and he's going to be traipsing around Scotland like that?! Brrr.

    ps you might already know this but filming finishes on Night Shift in November. Eoin will probably head to Ireland or London after that.
    L.B. wrote: »
    Its interesting that a few days into The Tempest and we had various stage photos emerging - but so far, I have yet to see one photo from Mojo. I wonder if there's stricter security there?

    Dude, fangirls always find a way => Look Here.
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    Avi8Avi8 Posts: 3,077
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    myselfandi wrote: »
    Also, I *ahem* feel that Morgana couldn't be trusted. Look at the events of To Kill a King and The Nightmare Begins. In both those episodes, she was fairly narcissistic about ignoring the fallout for others. In her defense (this is a rationale not an excuse) she was a terrified young woman and had clearly been so for a long time.

    You are saying what I have always believed: Morgana was too unstable to be trusted with a secret. If I hadn't spent so long discussing this with people with different points of view, I would have assumed everyone saw it the same way. I thought that was why tptb had Katie looking so jittery and volatile a lot of the time.
    As for Uther's death, Morgana with a little help from Agravaine tricked Merlin into doing it. Odin precipitated the events but magic would have saved Uther if not for Morgana being one step ahead of Merlin.

    Yes.

    Dude, fangirls always find a way => Look Here.

    Oh my goodness, how clever are you to have found that?! That is going to cause some flutters! (Psst, is that really Colin? <turns pc on side and looks again> okaaay ;))
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