And as many people have pointed out to you in a series based on medieval history rape was inevitable in Sansa's particular circumstances.
It is a fantasy series, in the real world, people would,be looking on and making sure that did not happen to her. All the Stark children would have been placed with social services as would Danearys. Vicerys , Joffrey, Rhoose and Ramsey would be in therapy or Broadmoor and on strong psychiatric drugs. Cersei and Tyrion would be in rehab. Tywin would be head on the IMF and Brienne would be as fabulous as Gwendoline Christie.
It is a fantasy story watch or don't watch, but to make feminist comparison between degrees of sexual assault sets back feminism. It makes us seems overly concerned with things that happen to our sex not everyone.
But ultimately is a fantasy story and you are free to turn off.
I'm turning off, I'm simply pointing out why the depiction is gratuitous, feel free to ignore my posts. I don't agree Sansa's fate was inevitable, and there is something very unpleasant and prurient about it being depicted in the way that it has.
If you haven't learnt yet that things don't happen in Westeros the way you want them to happen, then I don't know what to say.
It's not anything to do with what I may want as a viewer, it's what counts as good or poor writing. Good, in the episode under discussion, being defined as the Jorah/ Tyrion scenes.
Rape,is worse than chopping someone's penis off, is there a scale of sexual torture that you find yuk or less yuk 😱
There is nothing in this series from hand chopping chopping off to alive that I find remotely acceptable.
However it is fantasy and as much as I don't want to see those bits p I still enjoy the story and series.
Was stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach acceptable for you?
I watch for the bits in between not the violence. If that approach is not for you then
Not what I said. Depictions of rape carry a responsibility that chopping off penis scenes don't because of what goes on in here in the real world and how depictions of women interact with reality. If you disagree, up to you, I am not one of these people to say "you are wrong" but just "I disagree."
I thought The Red Wedding was some totally unnecessary violence also actually in Talisa's stabbing. I assume the producers were short-cutting the idea that Robb has no heirs (slightly more drawn out in the book) by making it absolutely explicit. It was over-the-top and I nearly stopped watching then just as I nearly stopped reading the books (in my view GRRM having gone for all-out shock has nowhere to take his story - great set piece, but, erm, decapitated, for want of a better word, the series). If Dacey Mormont had been in there getting axed in the stomach it would have been a better scene, but the series dropped a female soldier and included a pregnant woman being stabbed. Bad substitution in my view.
The Sansa scenes were uncomfortable as hell and hopefully Ramsay will suffer big time/get a suitably violent and humiliating death but some of the reactions are a bit OTT considering the amount of violence and horrible things this show throws out on a regular basis.
Winterfell in winter is utterly beautiful, isn't it? I've never seen the place look so enchanting and it was during yet another horrible wedding as well. I guess Theon will snap out of his submissive role as well and help Sansa take Ramsay down.
Cersei thinks she's being smart and she might have gotten both Loras and Margaery in trouble with the High Sparrow (one of them ain't gonna make it into Season 6) but she's going to regret allying with him. Loved her sparring with Olenna too.
Littlefinger continues to be repellent. Of course he told Cersei that Sansa was with the Boltons.
The Arya stuff was great but I want it to progress a little more. Waif girl looks like she might pose a threat to Arya as well or is that just me?
Sand Snakes are a bit pointless along with Ellaria. I still like Doran and Trystan/Myrcella seem alright too. Did Bronn get poisoned? Not enough Jaime either.
The scenes with Tyrion and Jorah are just great as well, 9/10
Fair point. If that happened, it might allow the character to replace, in some way, what has been lost by the omission of Lady Stoneheart.
I bet they don't actually do this though. Sansa will remain pointless and not get any kind of a grip. Reek / Theon will remember who he is and manage to die heroically (at a guess). Lady Stoneheart won't appear at all, still disappointed we haven't seen (and won't see) the proper version of her even if she does turn up.
I'm turning off, I'm simply pointing out why the depiction is gratuitous, feel free to ignore my posts. I don't agree Sansa's fate was inevitable, and there is something very unpleasant and prurient about it being depicted in the way that it has.
And I am going to continue to watch, and as I have disagreed with almost everything you have said I am glad you will no longer be commenting
I found your points badly made and irritating in the extreme, if you choose to watch a fantasy series about power is acquisition and loss, why only care about the women?
Be equally upset about Tyrion and his contanst battle to be seen as a human being let alone a worthwhile human being.
Be upset about Ellyria Martell, how about the Dornish leader let her into his long term plan
Be upset for Jon Snow and the way he was made to feel worthless by the " heroine " Caitlyn Stark.
I find your outrage about Sansa suprisingly in view of all the awful things that have happened to all the half decent characters on this show,no one is perfect, no one is wholly good, apparently though some are wholly evil.,
Rape storylines have a responsibility attached that, for example, chopping off someone's penis on TV doesn't have. For what it's worth, I was tempted to quit this show during the Reek torture as it went on too long, and was wilfully cruel and upsetting in an effort to shock. I'm also not happy about making homophobia a massive plotline in this season that it isn't in the book, as I noted above. This is dropping huge anvils on the audience's heads from subtle nuances in a book series, and it is very cheap to say "gay people / women" etc were treated like cr*p in medieval times so let's just sit through a highly questionable fictional depiction in 2015 without a murmur.
So it isn't just the rape scenes I object to; but rape scenes do have a particular kind of special status and it is important as I say to take care with them and only use them in particular ways. The producers of GoT have already added at least one rape scene (Dany's rape being "new" is debatable, a child in the books with little choice in the sex she has, although shown much more unpleasantly on-screen). The Jaime / Cersei scene is a classic example of irresponsible and cavalier storytelling so there is a precedent, frankly, for GoT getting this wrong and many people complained about it at the time. It was totally out of character for Jaime, who in his twisted way loves Cersei, to treat her in that way. It didn't move the story along. It didn't tell us anything. It was treating a woman like cr*p for the sake of it. I suspect Sansa's assault will have a similar "impact" (none / nothing for her / she doesn't change / agree with the poster above that she will stay a victim etc etc etc).
As I also said above, making this about Reek is precisely part of the problem. Rape should not be used on TV to advance a male character. Yes, it's that simple. Rape of a woman as witnessed by a man, should not be used to move the man along. I can appreciate somewhere in the world a man's life has been changed by witnessing a rape. Nevertheless, TV is not shown in a vacuum where we can depict a totally irresponsible scene and storyline as we can get away with it as it's HBO / Sky Atlantic. There are limits on the stories you can tell. We could all think of the worst story in the world where the most terrible things happened to the best people and try and get a TV company to make it, but we could still be asked: and what are you saying with this? Where is the art? Where is the entertainment? Where is the payoff for the audience? I've sat through a terrible scene a year or so ago in the hope we are going somewhere... Where are we going?? Sansa will either stay a victim, or go down a route she had plenty of reason to go down already if the producers didn't obviously want to show this scene. There is something really unpleasant about it at all, I feel they have had this planned for years, and think it is "edgy" (when Sansa has escaped this fate before) to finally show it happening. It's really yuck.
It's a fantasy TV show, not a moral crusade for a social justice warrior. Rape has no right to a special status just as murder and torture don't. It is an adult show dealing with adult themes. You haven't even seen how the story will pan out and you are saying it isn't artistic or is without merit.
It's like the arguments you get from feminists with a puritan streak wanting uncomfortable things censored in case it is 'triggering'. This is not a show for them or their delicate sensibilities.
And I am going to continue to watch, and as I have disagreed with almost everything you have said I am glad you will no longer be commenting
I found your points badly made and irritating in the extreme, if you choose to watch a fantasy series about power is acquisition and loss, why only care about the women?
Be equally upset about Tyrion and his contanst battle to be seen as a human being let alone a worthwhile human being.
Be upset about Ellyria Martell, how about the Dornish leader let her into his long term plan
Be upset for Jon Snow and the way he was made to feel worthless by the " heroine " Caitlyn Stark.
I find your outrage about Sansa suprisingly in view of all the awful things that have happened to all the half decent characters on this show,no one is perfect, no one is wholly good, apparently though some are wholly evil.,
Nope - I already said I didn't like the Loras and Reek storylines and how they went. They are both men (Balon's opinion of a "diminished" Theon notwithstanding) so as you can see, no dice. No need to be rude, btw (doesn't help your points).
It's a fantasy TV show, not a moral crusade for a social justice warrior. Rape has no right to a special status just as murder and torture don't. It is an adult show dealing with adult themes. You haven't even seen how the story will pan out and you are saying it isn't artistic or is without merit.
It's like the arguments you get from feminists with a puritan streak wanting uncomfortable things censored in case it is 'triggering'. This is not a show for them or their delicate sensibilities.
Be fair, I didn't say "triggering", no need to invoke other online arguments here. We will have to agree to disagree on whether rape is different to general violence and torture.
Agreed. It should be a show about frolicking Wolves. Where are they? >:(
I think Tommen has moved onto other interests than Ser Pounce and we haven't seen a direwolf for a bit (even Ghost). I'm probably going to stop watching at this point but could do with a Nymeria spinoff, isn't she leading some huge pack of wolves in the woods now?
I'm turning off, I'm simply pointing out why the depiction is gratuitous, feel free to ignore my posts. I don't agree Sansa's fate was inevitable, and there is something very unpleasant and prurient about it being depicted in the way that it has.
The show is gratuitous. The rape in comparison to some scenes was relatively mild. I thought it came off as it needed to without being explicit. Yes we knew exactly what was happening but the actual deed was never physically shown only heard and Theon's reaction explained more then enough about how terrible it actually is.
Sometimes when bad things like rape happen, it's best to rip the bandaid off first before the healing can begin. Instead of hiding away and pretending it doesn't exist sometimes you need to be reminded exactly why it's so bad in order to understand the victims and stop the abuse.
Fair point. If that happened, it might allow the character to replace, in some way, what has been lost by the omission of Lady Stoneheart.
I haven't read the books ( I intend too once the show ends ) so I have no idea who she is and quits frankly I don't want to know for when I do read the books
ETA didn't mean for that statement to come out as harsh as it soundesd ..:). ... Apologies
The show is gratuitous. The rape in comparison to some scenes was relatively mild. I thought it came off as it needed to without being explicit. Yes we knew exactly what was happening but the actual deed was never physically shown only heard and Theon's reaction explained more then enough about how terrible it actually is.
Sometimes when bad things like rape happen, it's best to rip the bandaid off first before the healing can begin. Instead of hiding away and pretending it doesn't exist sometimes you need to be reminded exactly why it's so bad in order to understand the victims and stop the abuse.
Oh come on though, Game of Thrones isn't looking to help any abuse victims here is it. I would be amazed if they consulted with any victims' groups for example (I am not saying they should have, by the way, unless they wanted to help anyone - but I expect they didn't. Happy to be corrected). I question its value and worth as entertainment in the way it was done.
Talisa's still female so it's AUTOMATICALLY bad ;-)
But that's the logic that your arguments point to. If all you are commenting on is about being indignant about male on female rape and even saying male castration does not have the same impact, there is nowhere else for this argument to go.
So many awful things have happened to decent people, sadly being female in this fantasy world only makes it more inevitable that something awful will happen to you, but it is not more awful because you are female. Awful things happening to people are awful.
Be fair, I didn't say "triggering", no need to invoke other online arguments here. We will have to agree to disagree on whether rape is different to general violence and torture.
In previous series a baby gets its throat slit in a brothel in front of his mother at the end of one of the episodes and the deserters of the Night's Watch rape a load of underage girls. It's a bleak world they inhabit and if Sansa's ordeal had been glossed over it wouldn't have made sense. The rape can move on her character to get herself out of the situation and probably Theon too. It doesn't really move on Ramsay's character as we knew what he was like.
But that's the logic that your arguments point to. If all you are commenting on is about being indignant about male on female rape and even saying male castration does not have the same impact, there is nowhere else for this argument to go.
So many awful things have happened to decent people, sadly being female in this fantasy world only makes it more inevitable that something awful will happen to you, but it is not more awful because you are female. Awful things happening to people are awful.
As I just said above, I disagreed with the extent of the male torture, and I disagree with the (gay male) homophobic storyline inflicted on Loras. I also disagree with the Sansa rape storyline. Not a male-female thing in my posts - you are the one making it one.
Rape,is worse than chopping someone's penis off, is there a scale of sexual torture that you find yuk or less yuk 😱
There is nothing in this series from hand chopping chopping off to alive that I find remotely acceptable.
However it is fantasy and as much as I don't want to see those bits p I still enjoy the story and series.
Was stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach acceptable for you?
I watch for the bits in between not the violence. If that approach is not for you then
I do absolutely love GoT, both the books and the show but I, like you, watch and read them for the bits in between. I don't enjoy the violence at all but I do love the fabulous characters and the story around them all.
In previous series a baby gets its throat slit in a brothel in front of his mother at the end of one of the episodes and the deserters of the Night's Watch rape a load of underage girls. It's a bleak world they inhabit and if Sansa's ordeal had been glossed over it wouldn't have made sense. The rape can move on her character to get herself out of the situation and probably Theon too. It doesn't really move on Ramsay's character as we knew what he was like.
If any character development emerges for Sansa that required her to be raped, then that would be interesting. I don't hold out much hope. Given Cersei was raped for no reason / character development, I fear the producers will make the same mistake again.
Nope - I already said I didn't like the Loras and Reek storylines and how they went. They are both men (Balon's opinion of a "diminished" Theon notwithstanding) so as you can see, no dice. No need to be rude, btw (doesn't help your points).
Not rude but irritated by your arguments and now even more irritated by your back tracking on watching the show and hence stopping commenting on it.
Enjoy arguing and backtracking, I have other things to do now.
Good episode all in all.
I'm a bit puzzled as to why people seem to be offended by Sansa's scene,we all knew that marrying Ramsay was never going to be a Disney ending .. Good things don't happen in Westeros.
Having said that,I'm hoping that Reek stabs him in the throat at the start the next episode.
If any character development emerges for Sansa that required her to be raped, then that would be interesting. I don't hold out much hope. Given Cersei was raped for no reason / character development, I fear the producers will make the same mistake again.
Comments
I'm turning off, I'm simply pointing out why the depiction is gratuitous, feel free to ignore my posts. I don't agree Sansa's fate was inevitable, and there is something very unpleasant and prurient about it being depicted in the way that it has.
It's not anything to do with what I may want as a viewer, it's what counts as good or poor writing. Good, in the episode under discussion, being defined as the Jorah/ Tyrion scenes.
If she was carrying a boy, yes. If it was a girl, no, that would be misogyny. Probably.
Not what I said. Depictions of rape carry a responsibility that chopping off penis scenes don't because of what goes on in here in the real world and how depictions of women interact with reality. If you disagree, up to you, I am not one of these people to say "you are wrong" but just "I disagree."
I thought The Red Wedding was some totally unnecessary violence also actually in Talisa's stabbing. I assume the producers were short-cutting the idea that Robb has no heirs (slightly more drawn out in the book) by making it absolutely explicit. It was over-the-top and I nearly stopped watching then just as I nearly stopped reading the books (in my view GRRM having gone for all-out shock has nowhere to take his story - great set piece, but, erm, decapitated, for want of a better word, the series). If Dacey Mormont had been in there getting axed in the stomach it would have been a better scene, but the series dropped a female soldier and included a pregnant woman being stabbed. Bad substitution in my view.
Fair point. If that happened, it might allow the character to replace, in some way, what has been lost by the omission of Lady Stoneheart.
Winterfell in winter is utterly beautiful, isn't it? I've never seen the place look so enchanting and it was during yet another horrible wedding as well. I guess Theon will snap out of his submissive role as well and help Sansa take Ramsay down.
Cersei thinks she's being smart and she might have gotten both Loras and Margaery in trouble with the High Sparrow (one of them ain't gonna make it into Season 6) but she's going to regret allying with him. Loved her sparring with Olenna too.
Littlefinger continues to be repellent. Of course he told Cersei that Sansa was with the Boltons.
The Arya stuff was great but I want it to progress a little more. Waif girl looks like she might pose a threat to Arya as well or is that just me?
Sand Snakes are a bit pointless along with Ellaria. I still like Doran and Trystan/Myrcella seem alright too. Did Bronn get poisoned? Not enough Jaime either.
The scenes with Tyrion and Jorah are just great as well, 9/10
I bet they don't actually do this though. Sansa will remain pointless and not get any kind of a grip. Reek / Theon will remember who he is and manage to die heroically (at a guess). Lady Stoneheart won't appear at all, still disappointed we haven't seen (and won't see) the proper version of her even if she does turn up.
Talisa's still female so it's AUTOMATICALLY bad ;-)
I found your points badly made and irritating in the extreme, if you choose to watch a fantasy series about power is acquisition and loss, why only care about the women?
Be equally upset about Tyrion and his contanst battle to be seen as a human being let alone a worthwhile human being.
Be upset about Ellyria Martell, how about the Dornish leader let her into his long term plan
Be upset for Jon Snow and the way he was made to feel worthless by the " heroine " Caitlyn Stark.
I find your outrage about Sansa suprisingly in view of all the awful things that have happened to all the half decent characters on this show,no one is perfect, no one is wholly good, apparently though some are wholly evil.,
It's a fantasy TV show, not a moral crusade for a social justice warrior. Rape has no right to a special status just as murder and torture don't. It is an adult show dealing with adult themes. You haven't even seen how the story will pan out and you are saying it isn't artistic or is without merit.
It's like the arguments you get from feminists with a puritan streak wanting uncomfortable things censored in case it is 'triggering'. This is not a show for them or their delicate sensibilities.
Nope - I already said I didn't like the Loras and Reek storylines and how they went. They are both men (Balon's opinion of a "diminished" Theon notwithstanding) so as you can see, no dice. No need to be rude, btw (doesn't help your points).
Agreed. It should be a show about frolicking Wolves. Where are they? >:(
Be fair, I didn't say "triggering", no need to invoke other online arguments here. We will have to agree to disagree on whether rape is different to general violence and torture.
I think Tommen has moved onto other interests than Ser Pounce
The show is gratuitous. The rape in comparison to some scenes was relatively mild. I thought it came off as it needed to without being explicit. Yes we knew exactly what was happening but the actual deed was never physically shown only heard and Theon's reaction explained more then enough about how terrible it actually is.
Sometimes when bad things like rape happen, it's best to rip the bandaid off first before the healing can begin. Instead of hiding away and pretending it doesn't exist sometimes you need to be reminded exactly why it's so bad in order to understand the victims and stop the abuse.
Having a secret war meeting where they plan to kill all the humans so Nymeria the wolf can claim the throne as Queen.
I haven't read the books ( I intend too once the show ends ) so I have no idea who she is and quits frankly I don't want to know for when I do read the books
ETA didn't mean for that statement to come out as harsh as it soundesd ..:). ... Apologies
Oh come on though, Game of Thrones isn't looking to help any abuse victims here is it. I would be amazed if they consulted with any victims' groups for example (I am not saying they should have, by the way, unless they wanted to help anyone - but I expect they didn't. Happy to be corrected). I question its value and worth as entertainment in the way it was done.
But that's the logic that your arguments point to. If all you are commenting on is about being indignant about male on female rape and even saying male castration does not have the same impact, there is nowhere else for this argument to go.
So many awful things have happened to decent people, sadly being female in this fantasy world only makes it more inevitable that something awful will happen to you, but it is not more awful because you are female. Awful things happening to people are awful.
In previous series a baby gets its throat slit in a brothel in front of his mother at the end of one of the episodes and the deserters of the Night's Watch rape a load of underage girls. It's a bleak world they inhabit and if Sansa's ordeal had been glossed over it wouldn't have made sense. The rape can move on her character to get herself out of the situation and probably Theon too. It doesn't really move on Ramsay's character as we knew what he was like.
As I just said above, I disagreed with the extent of the male torture, and I disagree with the (gay male) homophobic storyline inflicted on Loras. I also disagree with the Sansa rape storyline. Not a male-female thing in my posts - you are the one making it one.
I do absolutely love GoT, both the books and the show but I, like you, watch and read them for the bits in between. I don't enjoy the violence at all but I do love the fabulous characters and the story around them all.
If any character development emerges for Sansa that required her to be raped, then that would be interesting. I don't hold out much hope. Given Cersei was raped for no reason / character development, I fear the producers will make the same mistake again.
Not rude but irritated by your arguments and now even more irritated by your back tracking on watching the show and hence stopping commenting on it.
Enjoy arguing and backtracking, I have other things to do now.
I'm a bit puzzled as to why people seem to be offended by Sansa's scene,we all knew that marrying Ramsay was never going to be a Disney ending .. Good things don't happen in Westeros.
Having said that,I'm hoping that Reek stabs him in the throat at the start the next episode.
Seven hells, you're impossible.