Oscar Pistorius Trial (Merged)

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  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    smacka wrote: »
    I don't believe the phone data will produce anything incriminating at all.

    Whatever ammunition Nel thinks he has has already been given in evidence and can easily be explained away.

    I can't believe that Nel has found anything that could constitute a "smoking gun" to use during cross examination, he's had more than an opportunity to present anything damning during his prosecution, if he suddenly comes up with something he is holding in reserve then I can see Roux asking for a couple of days adjournment to go through the data himself in order to put up a defence.

    If that happens I honestly can't see the judge being very happy about it when whatever data evidence Nel has could have been introduced before closing the state case.

    I disagree with you. All phone data has been handed to the court.
    Nel can refer to any part of that at any time. There may be more unpleasant message not yet revealed, however Roux has access to all the same data, so it will be up to him to pre emp any more revealing messages by asking OP about them. In fact that appears to be how Nel works, he will make Roux ask OP about all the anomalies and inconsistencies in the case and ask for explanations.
  • Zizu58Zizu58 Posts: 3,658
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    Sorry to just barge in here and go off tangent so to speak ... but I'm out of the loop somewhat .

    One of the main worries / concerns is the mobile phone that supposedly went missing or was sneaked out of the crime scene and was returned sometime later .

    Did this actually happen ?
    If so , was info / date deleted - who had he nerve to remove the mobile and when it was returned how did they explain the situation ?

    An info on this matter please ..
  • Zizu58Zizu58 Posts: 3,658
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    The mobile phone bloke for the prosecution said that one of OP's phones was seized at the time (at 8am on the day of the incident) and the other was handed to the police on February 25th.

    Just found this through the search option .

    How on earth did they explain why they removed the phone from the crime scene ...??

    Just seems very dubious !
  • Zizu58Zizu58 Posts: 3,658
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    sandy50 wrote: »
    The Phone analyst had 4 phones, 2 blackberry 2 iphones - 2 blackberry's had sim swap changes to iphones in 2012.

    Didn't the phone analyst say that he was given a 'wrong' number for one of the phones, but managed to find it when the phone company sent the contract/bill/statement, and it was then that they saw Oscar had another number , so he tried that and got into another of Oscar's phones ? - obviously then ..Oscar hadn't given the police all of his cellphone numbers ?

    During that evening not one text, WhatsAPP was sent from Reeva's phone to anyone ?? when you hear that she was a texting mad all the time, you'd have thought she'd have sent at least one message to a friend about her evening with Oscar - I think something was tampered with, and the Phone Analyst said that Oscar never replied to one long anxious message sent to him by Reeva 2 days before that night, and he could have deleted it - so deleted messages can't be retrieved then ?

    So have the concerns in this post been satisfied ... That there were NO texts about her evening out and even giving a wrong number is also a slight concern ..
  • porky42porky42 Posts: 12,796
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    I can see this too - a row that's coming and going, Reeva trying to calm him down, and he follows her to the bathroom and picks up the bat along the way.

    This is why I think it was quietish before but the bang on the bath/door is what alerted people and then the screaming.

    I imagine there could have been an ongoing row that may have been louder at some points in the bedroom, but moving from bedroom to bathroom, I dont' see why it should be terribly loud, she could have just insisted that she needed a pee and used that as an excuse to get in the toilet and stay there, and once she'd locked herself in he realised he'd been tricked.

    He may have even said - you don't need your phone for that and she played along.

    I don't know, there are reasonable scenarios that work.

    Once she'd 'escaped', that's when he really lost it and it erupted into violence.

    Yes that would get her in there without much noise.

    BIB Do you think that she did not have a phone in with her?
  • valdvald Posts: 46,057
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    Has anyone else wondered why Oscar left his gun in the bathroom when he went back to the bedroom ? He thought there could be more than one intruder in the toilet....how could he be so sure that they were all dead, or that any of them were dead ? Why leave his gun where they could have come out and picked it up ?
  • porky42porky42 Posts: 12,796
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    vald wrote: »
    Has anyone else wondered why Oscar left his gun in the bathroom when he went back to the bedroom ? He thought there could be more than one intruder in the toilet....how could he be so sure that they were all dead, or that any of them were dead ? Why leave his gun where they could have come out and picked it up ?

    A good question which I had not thought about. On returning to the bedroom and finding her gone he could have instantly realised what he had done, dropped the gun and dashed back to the toilet. He may still have thought there was danger and kept hold of the gun or in his panic about Reeva just forgotten he was holding it and dropped it in the bathroom.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 44
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    I have a theory on what sent Oscar into the rage, bad enough for him to reach the point of losing it, in the way he did.

    It was the words from Reeva "I'm calling the Police".


    They are arguing in the bedroom, enough to scare her considerably, she grabs her phone and tells him she is going to contact the Police,

    This crosses the line from an argument, into him now getting into serious trouble/bad publicity whatever. He already has a bad reputation, similar ongoing case the thought of even more is too much. The panic, anger and red mist sets in to Oscar.

    So he goes to grab the phone from her, chases her into the bathroom, they tussle. Phone falls to the floor and Reeva locks herself in the cubicle.

    He is now so enraged that she will go to the Police that he cannot see a way out of it. Bat and gun follow.

    Hope that makes sense.
  • smackasmacka Posts: 1,828
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    I have a theory on what sent Oscar into the rage, bad enough for him to reach the point of losing it, in the way he did.

    It was the words from Reeva "I'm calling the Police".


    They are arguing in the bedroom, enough to scare her considerably, she grabs her phone and tells him she is going to contact the Police,

    This crosses the line from an argument, into him now getting into serious trouble/bad publicity whatever. He already has a bad reputation, similar ongoing case the thought of even more is too much. The panic, anger and red mist sets in to Oscar.

    So he goes to grab the phone from her, chases her into the bathroom, they tussle. Phone falls to the floor and Reeva locks herself in the cubicle.

    He is now so enraged that she will go to the Police that he cannot see a way out of it. Bat and gun follow.

    Hope that makes sense.



    When did she ever say that?
  • wilehelmaswilehelmas Posts: 3,610
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    I think that Reeva's messages to Oscar Pistorius of late January "I'm scared of you sometimes" and a week before she died "I regard myself as a lady and I didn't feel like one after we left" for me blow totally out of the water the lovey impression Roux is trying to build with his mountains of schmoop.

    The schmoop could easily be written off as Reeva trying hard to placate or appease Oscar by saying the right things, trying not to push his buttons, trying to say things that she knows he wants to hear, to keep him calm and from fraying.

    If this woman's messages show he was still up to his antics a week before she died at a function (acting like a child) then it really shows there was a deep problem in this relationship imo.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    Zizu58 wrote: »
    So have the concerns in this post been satisfied ... That there were NO texts about her evening out and even giving a wrong number is also a slight concern ..
    There were no messages or phone call data retrieved from that night, so Reeva didn't contact anyone while she was at Oscar's house. - which is something everyone is finding very unusual. If she did,, I think Oscar tampered with that - as she may have tried to call someone on his other phone ,,the one that was not handed into police and was eventually handed in to Police after the Bail Hearing - there was obviously something on that phone that he wanted to hide, or why keep it for so long and not hand in at time of the incident which he would have been obliged to for evidence - something that was very very dishonest..
    AJ_Tvll wrote: »
    Nel did not read out the Whatsapp messages of that night

    What was read was some Whatsapp messages in the past between Oscar and Reeva that showed she was "unhappy with him"

    I'm not hoping for more… you should go back and listen to that testimony and see for yourself!

    Nel did not present the messages on PURPOSE… because he will use them during Oscar's cross when they will matter and be effective

    All of the application data is in evidence and Nel does not have to present it when cellphone expert is testifying
    I've listened to that testimony , he read messages up until 13th February - and also the Data Analyst said that Oscar's ipad history had been deleted up until that date, so there was nothing else to find on phones or ipads.

    So you think there WERE Whatsapp messages Reeva made that night and Nel withheld VITAL piece of evidence when he closed the Case for the Prosecution ??? I know there were Whatsapp messages,prior to that night, because he read them out in Court, so dont know why you are repeating what I said in my post back to me,- and you know do you that Nel deliberately withheld that SMOKING GUN piece of evidence

    I think you are fantasising - and what Nel will do is pull together all of the 'bits' of evidence when he does his summation at the end, that's what happens. You might just as well be saying that a Defence witness is going to testify that Oscar wasn't even there that night, equally improbable.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 44
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    smacka wrote: »
    When did she ever say that?


    As I said in my post its a theory.
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    smacka wrote: »
    When did she ever say that?

    I think it's a hypothetical scenario on how if Reeva was genuinely scared of Oscar and tried to use her phone for help Oscar could have seen that as a threat to his image being tarnished by Reeva. Not that difficult to believe . Oscar was an extremely private person who would not want any bad press. Reeva threatening to expose him as a bully would be bad.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 44
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    benjamini wrote: »
    I think it's a hypothetical scenario on how if Reeva was genuinely scared of Oscar and tried to use her phone for help Oscar could have seen that as a threat to his image being tarnished by Reeva. Not that difficult to believe . Oscar was an extremely private person who would not want any bad press. Reeva threatening to expose him as a bully would be bad.

    Thank you, said better than I could.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    it was OP uncle who said it,, see quote
    Sitting next to the grieving mum briefly in the morning before proceedings began, he told her: "I am so sorry for your loss.

    "We as a family are just as heartroken for the life that has been lost.

    "Like your family we are trying to fight for a life and also for a life that has been lost."
    that's such a kop out of a comment- wish someone would have said to that Uncle of his "if it hadnt' have been for Oscar, a life wouldn't have been lost in the first place"
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    wilehelmas wrote: »
    I think that Reeva's messages to Oscar Pistorius of late January "I'm scared of you sometimes" and a week before she died "I regard myself as a lady and I didn't feel like one after we left" for me blow totally out of the water the lovey impression Roux is trying to build with his mountains of schmoop.

    The schmoop could easily be written off as Reeva trying hard to placate or appease Oscar by saying the right things, trying not to push his buttons, trying to say things that she knows he wants to hear, to keep him calm and from fraying.

    If this woman's messages show he was still up to his antics a week before she died at a function (acting like a child) then it really shows there was a deep problem in this relationship imo.

    She also told her mother that she and Oscar were fighting a lot.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    porky42 wrote: »
    Yes that would get her in there without much noise.

    BIB Do you think that she did not have a phone in with her?

    I don't assume that she got the phone into the toilet, because it was not drenched in blood, or not reported as such.

    I speculate that an argument took place outside the toilet in which the phone was thrown and came apart.

    Not that I know for sure, but I know part of many DV arguments is getting the phone away.
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    Thank you, said better than I could.

    You did start of the post stating it was just a theory:)
  • smackasmacka Posts: 1,828
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    bollywood wrote: »
    I don't assume that she got the phone into the toilet, because it was not drenched in blood, or not reported as such.

    I speculate that an argument took place outside the toilet in which the phone was thrown and came apart.

    Not that I know for sure, but I know part of many DV arguments is getting the phone away.

    Can you tell me what DV is?
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    smacka wrote: »
    Can you tell me what DV is?

    Domestic Violence. And I agree, the phone is what you first reach for if in a scary situation. It's the first thing the aggressor does is to remove it, block exits ectc. Text book stuff.
  • sandy50sandy50 Posts: 22,043
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    benjamini wrote: »
    Domestic Violence. And I agree, the phone is what you first reach for if in a scary situation. It's the first thing the aggressor does is to remove it, block exits ectc. Text book stuff.
    I agree, if he wanted to stop her letting anyone know he was scaring her and losing the plot that night he'd have to take her phone. There was suspicious behaviour by Oscar regarding the phones, that he needs to explain-
    sandy50 wrote: »
    http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-14/

    You see, this is what I was saying about Oscar not giving the correct number for the phone - and suspicious the other phone was handed in much much later, after the Bail Hearing ---- so obvious there was some tampering going on there :

    This is taken from Phone Analysts testimony :

    With the sim cards out, there is no exact way to determine the phone numbers for the devices. So he started with the device that was marked as Oscar’s device, went in to his last contacts on the phone, and established the number for Reeva. He then did the same to establish Oscar’s number, by looking at Reeva’s phone. He was under the impression that Oscar had only one phone.

    He then applied for data records from the network service providers based on the phone numbers that had been allocated for each phone, per above. From this, he was able to establish that the number he believed was for Oscar’s device was in fact not the right number. This device that was seized at the scene and marked as Oscar’s actually had a different phone number.

    Meaning… there was another phone out there that Oscar was using (that Reeva had recently called) that had not been seized at the scene. That phone was later turned in to the police by the Defense on February 26, 2013, after Oscar’s bail hearing.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 74
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    I'm sure this has been mentioned before but is it realistic to assume that OP was not on his prosthetic legs when arguing with Reeva?
    I would think that he would need to be of equal height and stature if he was arguing and not looking upwards.
    If this was indeed the case, then why remove them to go into action mode?
    Maybe he was more agile, stronger and competent without his legs?
  • smackasmacka Posts: 1,828
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    marxman wrote: »
    I'm sure this has been mentioned before but is it realistic to assume that OP was not on his prosthetic legs when arguing with Reeva?
    I would think that he would need to be of equal height and stature if he was arguing and not looking upwards.
    If this was indeed the case, then why remove them to go into action mode?
    Maybe he was more agile, stronger and competent without his legs?

    It hasn't been proven he was arguing with her though has it?
  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    smacka wrote: »
    It hasn't been proven he was arguing with her though has it?

    No, it hasn't. The witnesses have testified that they heard raised male and female voices, an angry female voice and frightened female screaming.

    I find it sad that so many people heard so many screams and yet no-one, apart from Stipp, actually did anything to help except call the estate security. Maybe the same would happen in the UK too.
  • barcajadenbarcajaden Posts: 1,072
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    No, it hasn't. The witnesses have testified that they heard raised male and female voices, an angry female voice and frightened female screaming.

    I find it sad that so many people heard so many screams and yet no-one, apart from Stipp, actually did anything to help except call the estate security. Maybe the same would happen in the UK too.
    Society has changed
    People turn a blind eye nowerdays ssdly
This discussion has been closed.