You are missing my point. I'm not comparing James to any other artist that has sold a million. I am stating that by selling a million records, you are not suddenly a credible artist, which is what you explicitly stated in your argument that I was responding to. So how about you try not to insult me by telling me I'm saying silly things, and stick to discussing James, okay?
The fact is: you like James and feel he's already proved his credibility. I'm saying that he needs to actually release a damn good album that is well received critically before he earns that title. I wouldn't say my argument is lacking in logic. I think that's just something you're trying to project onto me in order to feel better about yourself. But there's a reason why the word 'hater' is against the T&C's on here (just to remind you, as I've seen you use it a couple of times) - it's patronising and used to shut down any discussion that offers a critical viewpoint. The last thing I am is a hater. I'm just someone who is perplexed at the fervent worship on here of a guy that hasn't released any original music yet. Maybe I'm just old-school in my belief that credibility isn't an 'image', or something that's talked up by other celebrities, it's something that you prove by actually making decent music.
I'm not saying James will never be credible. I'm saying I don't think he's done enough to be called credible at the moment.
Ok sorry, I've changed it to 'dislikers' now. (Is this really against the T&C? I don't remember seeing a rule saying it's a banned word? But I'll take your word on it.). I'm sorry if you felt personally offended by my post but my comments were calling your argument silly. Neither do I fervently worship him! So confused why you think that ? I am simply tired of people saying that he's a Matt Cardle 2, that his voice sounds like he's constipated and that he looks like someone who's come out of a litter box. Anyway back to the topic.
Yes I know what you meant with single millions thing but again it's the type of market you're going for. Going for a market where you have to sell a million records to kids is incontrovertibly easier to manipulate than making a million adults/teenagers by your records (they'll actually take prices into account, will have a good listen beforehand). They will have a more informed decision.
He hasn't released any original music yet no. BUT, I still believe he's a more credible artist than most of the winners before him.
He can use a strong falsetto and play the guitar (fairly minor things yes, but actually a lot of artists can't do either). The fact that he was brought from the bottom 2 to 1st place for 4 consecutive weeks, also means that there must have been something giving us incentive to vote for him. Another thing with previous winners is that they have not been able to demonstrate good songwriting abilities. A good cover does require good songwriting abilities. And the way he covered SOS, Fallin, Hometown Glory and Sweet Dreams are even more reason to suggest that he's good at songwriting - although subjective, he would not have had such a bounce back from the bottom 2 if his covers weren't that great. Incorporating dubstep may seem like a remarkably easy thing to do but actually especially with an Adele ballad is difficult to do. Doing a rap on the spot with Olly Murs also further emphasises the sense that James is more versatile than any of the winners before him:
Tell me that isn't catchy. Also, another clip further reinforces this idea that James's original work is the same sort of stuff as his covers, especially Impossible:
Satisfied? He can do R&B, ballads, pop rock and even a bit of soul. That is more versatile (especially the R&B bit) than most winners before him. And he songwriters in an attractive enough way that made him a winner.
Also like I said in the other thread, loads of artists want to collab with him and Jay Z wants to spend 5 million to get him out of his contract with Syco. Common the guy's credible.
Ok sorry, I've changed it to 'dislikers' now. (Is this really against the T&C? I don't remember seeing a rule saying it's a banned word? But I'll take your word on it.). I'm sorry if you felt personally offended by my post but my comments were calling your argument silly. Neither do I fervently worship him! So confused why you think that ? I am simply tired of people saying that he's a Matt Cardle 2, that his voice sounds like he's constipated and that he looks like someone who's come out of a litter box. Anyway back to the topic.
Yes I know what you meant with single millions thing but again it's the type of market you're going for. Going for a market where you have to sell a million records to kids is incontrovertibly easier to manipulate than making a million adults/teenagers by your records (they'll actually take prices into account, will have a good listen beforehand). They will have a more informed decision.
He hasn't released any original music yet no. BUT, I still believe he's a more credible artist than most of the winners before him.
He can use a strong falsetto and play the guitar (fairly minor things yes, but actually a lot of artists can't do either). The fact that he was brought from the bottom 2 to 1st place for 4 consecutive weeks, also means that there must have been something giving us incentive to vote for him. Another thing with previous winners is that they have not been able to demonstrate good songwriting abilities. A good cover does require good songwriting abilities. And the way he covered SOS, Fallin, Hometown Glory and Sweet Dreams are even more reason to suggest that he's good at songwriting - although subjective, he would not have had such a bounce back from the bottom 2 if his covers weren't that great. Incorporating dubstep may seem like a remarkably easy thing to do but actually especially with an Adele ballad is difficult to do. Doing a rap on the spot with Olly Murs also further emphasises the sense that James is more versatile than any of the winners before him:
Tell me that isn't catchy. Also, another clip further reinforces this idea that James's original work is the same sort of stuff as his covers, especially Impossible:
Satisfied? He can do R&B, ballads, pop rock and even a bit of soul. That is more versatile (especially the R&B bit) than most winners before him. And he songwriters in an attractive enough way that made him a winner.
Also like I said in the other thread, loads of artists want to collab with him and Jay Z wants to spend 5 million to get him out of his contract with Syco. Common the guy's credible.
I admire your dedicatation and your arguement ..but everything you have said had been said before about previous winners ..nobody showcases their songwriting ability on the x factor ..nobody .;)
I admire your dedicatation and your arguement ..but everything you have said had been said before about previous winners ..nobody showcases their songwriting ability on the x factor ..nobody .;)
Thank you, I do try a lot but I don't think people read all of it ...his covers of at least 5 songs show signs of heavy song editing (i.e. songwriting). The two original songs he did on the Xtra Factor show evidence of writing his originals in the same way as his covers. He can rap, sing soul music, use a strong falsetto and play a guitar (silly things I know but he can do them! The rest could probably only do one of those, Matt could do three but none of the winners so far could rap!). James is versatile.
Thank you, I do try a lot but I don't think people read all of it ...his covers of at least 5 songs show signs of heavy song editing (i.e. songwriting). The two original songs he did on the Xtra Factor show evidence of writing his originals in the same way as his covers. He can rap, sing soul music, use a strong falsetto and play a guitar (silly things I know but he can do them! The rest could probably only do one of those, Matt could do three but none of the winners so far could rap!). James is versatile.
Don't worry, some of us read it all.:D
I agree with you with regards to the dubstep thing. I remember him saying in an interview that he spent hours putting the arrangement together, because the producers didn't really understand what he wanted to do with the song, as a result he ended up making silly sounds for over an hour, just so they would get it.:D
He is most definitely a different winner.:)
To add to your post above, he also plays the piano.:)
Ok sorry, I've changed it to 'dislikers' now. (Is this really against the T&C? I don't remember seeing a rule saying it's a banned word? But I'll take your word on it.). I'm sorry if you felt personally offended by my post but my comments were calling your argument silly. Neither do I fervently worship him! So confused why you think that ? I am simply tired of people saying that he's a Matt Cardle 2, that his voice sounds like he's constipated and that he looks like someone who's come out of a litter box. Anyway back to the topic.
Yes I know what you meant with single millions thing but again it's the type of market you're going for. Going for a market where you have to sell a million records to kids is incontrovertibly easier to manipulate than making a million adults/teenagers by your records (they'll actually take prices into account, will have a good listen beforehand). They will have a more informed decision.
He hasn't released any original music yet no. BUT, I still believe he's a more credible artist than most of the winners before him.
He can use a strong falsetto and play the guitar (fairly minor things yes, but actually a lot of artists can't do either). The fact that he was brought from the bottom 2 to 1st place for 4 consecutive weeks, also means that there must have been something giving us incentive to vote for him. Another thing with previous winners is that they have not been able to demonstrate good songwriting abilities. A good cover does require good songwriting abilities. And the way he covered SOS, Fallin, Hometown Glory and Sweet Dreams are even more reason to suggest that he's good at songwriting - although subjective, he would not have had such a bounce back from the bottom 2 if his covers weren't that great. Incorporating dubstep may seem like a remarkably easy thing to do but actually especially with an Adele ballad is difficult to do. Doing a rap on the spot with Olly Murs also further emphasises the sense that James is more versatile than any of the winners before him:
Tell me that isn't catchy. Also, another clip further reinforces this idea that James's original work is the same sort of stuff as his covers, especially Impossible:
Satisfied? He can do R&B, ballads, pop rock and even a bit of soul. That is more versatile (especially the R&B bit) than most winners before him. And he songwriters in an attractive enough way that made him a winner.
Also like I said in the other thread, loads of artists want to collab with him and Jay Z wants to spend 5 million to get him out of his contract with Syco. Common the guy's credible.
It is against T&C's, yeah (or It was the last time I checked anyway!) I think there are just easier, less offensive ways of getting your point across. I appreciate you feel passionately about James and want to defend him, but please understand that just because someone like myself is critical about him, it doesn't mean I appreciate being lumped in with the trolls and wind-up merchants on here, nor do I think it's particularly nice to be told things like I'm obstinate and can't stand reason or logic, because that simply isn't true. Also, describing someone's argument as silly, whilst not directly personal, can still be construed as such because it's something that person obviously believes in order to type. I think it's better to just say "I disagree because..." without making it focused on the person giving the argument. It's just some friendly advice because you veer quite close to being personal at times, not just on here but on other threads too, and I think it's best to keep it focused on James if that's what we're discussing. No hard feelings.
Anyway, I did read all your post and appreciate you taking the time to write it. Maybe 'fervent worship' was the wrong choice of words, I was using hyperbole to mean it in the context that James has built up a strong band of defenders on here who all cite reasons for their appreciation of him as a winner: that he's not like the other winners, he's more credible than that, he's going to be absolutely massive because he's so talented etc, and all I'm trying to point out is that I haven't seen anything so far from him that makes me believe he's going to be a huge, game-changing breakout winner from the show. And I've never said he's another Matt Cardle, nor do I think I've commented on his looks, so both of those things you dislike don't really apply to me,
Anyway, we're not going to agree on the million selling singles thing. Some decent songs and some pretty awful songs have sold a million in this country, but my point was that if you're using that alone to justify why he's credible, it's possibly not the strongest of arguments, especially as Alexandra Burke, another XF winner, also sold a million in the time that James did, so he's not necessarily any more credible than her.
The rest of your argument about why he's credible is a lot more detailed and easier to see why you believe that. I'm just unsure why, if he is such a talented singer/songwriter, he felt the need to go on a show such as XF which anybody with industry experience (and plenty of people without) can see is a huge risk in terms of damaging your future career if you don't win (and sometimes even if you do win.) I don't think James's songwriting, from what I've heard of it, is exceptional enough to guarantee he would have been noticed without the XF, which I guess is one of the reasons he might have decided to go on it in the end, but maybe my doubt is more focused on the show itself at this point than James; I'm just not sure anybody who goes on the show knowing how blatantly manipulated it is really has 'credibilty' at the root of why they're doing it, especially at James's age which is not especially old, but in terms of industry standards is rapidly coming out of his 'prime' years.
With all that said, I've said from the start that I'll listen to James's album with fresh ears, because I do think he has potential and is most likely capable of producing a good album. I'm just not going to commit to thinking he's the real deal yet, because I have some concerns about the way he presents himself on Twitter, the way he seems to enjoy the 'perks' of fame (ie. piling into a taxi with a bunch of girls with questionable morals) and the way he's happy to accept the credible tag before he's let his music do the talking.
And I think that's the point I've been trying to make all along: it's his music, specifically his first album, that needs to do the talking at this point. You and I are clearly not going to agree on where James is at the moment, but I will listen to his album and give it a fair chance, because I like it when artists surprise me. I haven't written James off at all, I just like it when artists put their money where their mouth is and produce something of decent quality. I don't think it's right to dismiss an album before you've even heard it, but at the same time I don't think it's right to call an artist credible before they've even released their debut album.
It is against T&C's, yeah (or It was the last time I checked anyway!) I think there are just easier, less offensive ways of getting your point across. I appreciate you feel passionately about James and want to defend him, but please understand that just because someone like myself is critical about him, it doesn't mean I appreciate being lumped in with the trolls and wind-up merchants on here, nor do I think it's particularly nice to be told things like I'm obstinate and can't stand reason or logic, because that simply isn't true. Also, describing someone's argument as silly, whilst not directly personal, can still be construed as such because it's something that person obviously believes in order to type. I think it's better to just say "I disagree because..." without making it focused on the person giving the argument. It's just some friendly advice because you veer quite close to being personal at times, not just on here but on other threads too, and I think it's best to keep it focused on James if that's what we're discussing. No hard feelings.
Anyway, I did read all your post and appreciate you taking the time to write it. Maybe 'fervent worship' was the wrong choice of words, I was using hyperbole to mean it in the context that James has built up a strong band of defenders on here who all cite reasons for their appreciation of him as a winner: that he's not like the other winners, he's more credible than that, he's going to be absolutely massive because he's so talented etc, and all I'm trying to point out is that I haven't seen anything so far from him that makes me believe he's going to be a huge, game-changing breakout winner from the show. And I've never said he's another Matt Cardle, nor do I think I've commented on his looks, so both of those things you dislike don't really apply to me,
Anyway, we're not going to agree on the million selling singles thing. Some decent songs and some pretty awful songs have sold a million in this country, but my point was that if you're using that alone to justify why he's credible, it's possibly not the strongest of arguments, especially as Alexandra Burke, another XF winner, also sold a million in the time that James did, so he's not necessarily any more credible than her.
The rest of your argument about why he's credible is a lot more detailed and easier to see why you believe that. I'm just unsure why, if he is such a talented singer/songwriter, he felt the need to go on a show such as XF which anybody with industry experience (and plenty of people without) can see is a huge risk in terms of damaging your future career if you don't win (and sometimes even if you do win.) I don't think James's songwriting, from what I've heard of it, is exceptional enough to guarantee he would have been noticed without the XF, which I guess is one of the reasons he might have decided to go on it in the end, but maybe my doubt is more focused on the show itself at this point than James; I'm just not sure anybody who goes on the show knowing how blatantly manipulated it is really has 'credibilty' at the root of why they're doing it, especially at James's age which is not especially old, but in terms of industry standards is rapidly coming out of his 'prime' years.
With all that said, I've said from the start that I'll listen to James's album with fresh ears, because I do think he has potential and is most likely capable of producing a good album. I'm just not going to commit to thinking he's the real deal yet, because I have some concerns about the way he presents himself on Twitter, the way he seems to enjoy the 'perks' of fame (ie. piling into a taxi with a bunch of girls with questionable morals) and the way he's happy to accept the credible tag before he's let his music do the talking.
And I think that's the point I've been trying to make all along: it's his music, specifically his first album, that needs to do the talking at this point. You and I are clearly not going to agree on where James is at the moment, but I will listen to his album and give it a fair chance, because I like it when artists surprise me. I haven't written James off at all, I just like it when artists put their money where their mouth is and produce something of decent quality. I don't think it's right to dismiss an album before you've even heard it, but at the same time I don't think it's right to call an artist credible before they've even released their debut album.
Totally agree with you on the points you made re credibility & million selling singles. I think that the problem is that the first single (the winners single) has little to do with the artist and much more to do with the X Factor show. His first release will be a possible indicator of popularity, but I think it is the records released after that (the sophamore album and also the third one) which are more likely to determine whether they are really staying the course. The problem with the first album is that it will be with Syco (I presume), and I personally feel that the label pigeonholes their artists into a category and creates a certain image and stifles any creativity they may well have.
I admire your dedicatation and your arguement ..but everything you have said had been said before about previous winners ..nobody showcases their songwriting ability on the x factor ..nobody .;)
Actually Lucy Spraggan did this year in a couple of instances!
Credibility is quite possible for an X Factor artist but it is harder to achieve as there is an in-built 'wannabe' aspect to the X Factor which doesn't sit well with many other artists and the general pop audience.
To be a really credible artist you would probably have to do the live circuits, release original songs, sell more than a few hundred thousand and eventually appear on Jools Holland. There are not a lot of X Factor artists who have done all of those things! Being big pop stars like 1D doesn't make you credible. Rebecca Ferguson might be the closest so far to being credible! (Or Rowetta from Happy Mondays?)
As for James Arthur's version of 'Impossible', I prefer the original but I have listened to some of his original works and some of that stuff is reasonably good but nothing special yet!
Totally agree with you on the points you made re credibility & million selling singles. I think that the problem is that the first single (the winners single) has little to do with the artist and much more to do with the X Factor show. His first release will be a possible indicator of popularity, but I think it is the records released after that (the sophamore album and also the third one) which are more likely to determine whether they are really staying the course. The problem with the first album is that it will be with Syco (I presume), and I personally feel that the label pigeonholes their artists into a category and creates a certain image and stifles any creativity they may well have.
Constructive comment from Michelle. Wow!!:D:D:p
Also do you accept that 1D will be staying the course as their sophomore album has outperformed the first in terms of sales?:p
With regards to Syco pigeonholing their artists, Labrinth is signed to syco, he does his own thing. Also I think it's because of comments like this that has led to them co-signing some of the X Factor acts with other labels. Matt Cardle foreinstance was co-signed to Columbia UK, but still didn't make a difference though, did it?:p
Constructive comment from Michelle. Wow!!:D:D:p
Also do you accept that 1D will be staying the course as their sophomore album has outperformed the first in terms of sales?:p
With regards to Syco pigeonholing their artists, Labrinth is signed to syco, he does his own thing. Also I think it's because of comments like this that has led to them co-signing some of the X Factor acts with other labels. Matt Cardle foreinstance was co-signed to Columbia UK, but still didn't make a difference though, did it?:p
With 1D - all I will say is that releasing the second album so quickly after the first helped sales of both as it kept them in the public eye. And they do appeal to the 12-16 market mainly, which were still within that age group when both albums were released. I reckon if they leave some distance before the release of a 3rd they could be struggling.
You could well be right re Labrinth - and Matt Cardle, well perhaps he didnt have the X Factor after all and I reckon that proves the point about those having good selling winners singles not necessarily making it as artists.
Using Matt Cardle as an example in a counter-argument to James criticisers is the worst thing you can do imo. His winner's single sold over a million, and he was also heavily lauded as the most 'credible' artist to come out of the X Factor... surely only big things were to come for him? Look how that turned out. The album will be the big test.
With 1D - all I will say is that releasing the second album so quickly after the first helped sales of both as it kept them in the public eye. And they do appeal to the 12-16 market mainly, which were still within that age group when both albums were released. I reckon if they leave some distance before the release of a 3rd they could be struggling.
You could well be right re Labrinth - and Matt Cardle, well perhaps he didnt have the X Factor after all and I reckon that proves the point about those having good selling winners singles not necessarily making it as artists.
lolz!! that's definitely different from saying 1D was on a downward trajectory before TMH, LWWY and LT landed.;)
but the 2nd album is a whole12 months after the first one here in UK. just so happened they have to do a worldwide sale all at once (give or take a day or two) as they are now a bonafide GLOBAL PHENOMENON!! besides, with their tight schedule, when else can they release it and still have time for rehearsals for their WORLDWIDE ARENA TOUR that kicks off in february 2013, next month?!!
expect a 3rd album shortly after they finish their arena tour in november 2013. and as they're signed to release an album a year for the next 3 years, make that every year.:D
lolz!! that's definitely different from saying 1D was on a downward trajectory before TMH, LWWY and LT landed.;)
but the 2nd album is a whole12 months after the first one here in UK. just so happened they have to do a worldwide sale all at once (give or take a day or two) as they are now a bonafide GLOBAL PHENOMENON!! besides, with their tight schedule, when else can they release it and still have time for rehearsals for their WORLDWIDE ARENA TOUR that kicks off in february 2013, next month?!!
expect a 3rd album shortly after they finish their arena tour in november 2013. and as they're signed to release an album a year for the next 3 years, make that every year.:D
Globally popular at the moment - Yes.
I am not surprised that the label want them to release an album every year for the next 3 years - I reckon they realise that when the current crop of 12-16 year olds leave that age bracket, so the majority of their fanbase will move on so they'll want to milk 'the cow quickly' before it disappears. Makes good business sense.:D
I am not surprised that the label want them to release an album every year for the next 3 years - I reckon they realise that when the current crop of 12-16 year olds leave that age bracket, so the majority of their fanbase will move on so they'll want to milk 'the cow quickly' before it disappears. Makes good business sense.:D
and a very good place to be if you ask me, lolz!!:p
when the fanbase leave that age bracket, remains to be seen... but you can't totally discount the possibility of the boys maturing in their sound and a segment of their present audience maturing with them. westlife went far longer than initially expected... take that reunited and was bigger than ever!!
but that's the future and today is now. and now is a very good place indeed. :cool:
I find it funny people can even say this when the single's broken records, he's broken records and he's the most credible artist to come out of the X Factor. Also the radios wouldn't play it so much if they got bored of it that easily.
He's done so well, so give it up. Unfortunately for you, he's here to stay.
So does having a guitar in one hand and a cigarette in the other make you "credible"? Alexandra also broke European records with her winners single (James still hasn't took over her massive sales) and yet she's somehow not credible in the eyes of the public? Interesting...
So does having a guitar in one hand and a cigarette in the other make you "credible"? Alexandra also broke European records with her winners single (James still hasn't took over her massive sales) and yet she's somehow not credible in the eyes of the public? Interesting...
I love it how picked a tiny snippet of my argument. I have defined credibility already. Credible artist = REAL MUSIC artist. Playing the guitar, playing the piano, rapping and using a strong falsetto may all be incredibly trivial but they are all actually very difficult to do and require some skill, some musical talent and training to do (sometimes a lot like a falsetto, especially with James's tenor voice and even playing the guitar so spontaneously like he does). Again it may be trivial but it proves he's more of a real music artist, as well as demonstrating a commitment to music, music being his everything pretty much.
I love it how picked a tiny snippet of my argument. I have defined credibility already. Credible artist = REAL MUSIC artist. Playing the guitar, playing the piano, rapping and using a strong falsetto may all be incredibly trivial but they are all actually very difficult to do and require some skill, some musical talent and training to do (sometimes a lot like a falsetto, especially with James's tenor voice and even playing the guitar so spontaneously like he does). Again it may be trivial but it proves he's more of a real music artist, as well as demonstrating a commitment to music, music being his everything pretty much.
Personally I find James to be very arrogant and his voice average and grating after a while. It just annoys me that apparently the only credible music nowadays is indie or alternative. He's one of the worst winners imo. I've seen both Leona and Alexandra live (Alex twice) and they are world class entertainers and singers and don't come across as having egos the size of the moon. You earn credibility, you aren't just given it because you're alternative in some way.
Comments
Ok sorry, I've changed it to 'dislikers' now. (Is this really against the T&C? I don't remember seeing a rule saying it's a banned word? But I'll take your word on it.). I'm sorry if you felt personally offended by my post but my comments were calling your argument silly. Neither do I fervently worship him! So confused why you think that
Yes I know what you meant with single millions thing but again it's the type of market you're going for. Going for a market where you have to sell a million records to kids is incontrovertibly easier to manipulate than making a million adults/teenagers by your records (they'll actually take prices into account, will have a good listen beforehand). They will have a more informed decision.
He hasn't released any original music yet no. BUT, I still believe he's a more credible artist than most of the winners before him.
He can use a strong falsetto and play the guitar (fairly minor things yes, but actually a lot of artists can't do either). The fact that he was brought from the bottom 2 to 1st place for 4 consecutive weeks, also means that there must have been something giving us incentive to vote for him. Another thing with previous winners is that they have not been able to demonstrate good songwriting abilities. A good cover does require good songwriting abilities. And the way he covered SOS, Fallin, Hometown Glory and Sweet Dreams are even more reason to suggest that he's good at songwriting - although subjective, he would not have had such a bounce back from the bottom 2 if his covers weren't that great. Incorporating dubstep may seem like a remarkably easy thing to do but actually especially with an Adele ballad is difficult to do. Doing a rap on the spot with Olly Murs also further emphasises the sense that James is more versatile than any of the winners before him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvdXZxTlpjk
Tell me that isn't catchy. Also, another clip further reinforces this idea that James's original work is the same sort of stuff as his covers, especially Impossible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8HJwfKGL04
Satisfied? He can do R&B, ballads, pop rock and even a bit of soul. That is more versatile (especially the R&B bit) than most winners before him. And he songwriters in an attractive enough way that made him a winner.
Also like I said in the other thread, loads of artists want to collab with him and Jay Z wants to spend 5 million to get him out of his contract with Syco. Common the guy's credible.
Thank you, I do try a lot but I don't think people read all of it
Don't worry, some of us read it all.:D
I agree with you with regards to the dubstep thing. I remember him saying in an interview that he spent hours putting the arrangement together, because the producers didn't really understand what he wanted to do with the song, as a result he ended up making silly sounds for over an hour, just so they would get it.:D
He is most definitely a different winner.:)
To add to your post above, he also plays the piano.:)
any reason why you haven't... yet?
It is against T&C's, yeah (or It was the last time I checked anyway!) I think there are just easier, less offensive ways of getting your point across. I appreciate you feel passionately about James and want to defend him, but please understand that just because someone like myself is critical about him, it doesn't mean I appreciate being lumped in with the trolls and wind-up merchants on here, nor do I think it's particularly nice to be told things like I'm obstinate and can't stand reason or logic, because that simply isn't true. Also, describing someone's argument as silly, whilst not directly personal, can still be construed as such because it's something that person obviously believes in order to type. I think it's better to just say "I disagree because..." without making it focused on the person giving the argument. It's just some friendly advice because you veer quite close to being personal at times, not just on here but on other threads too, and I think it's best to keep it focused on James if that's what we're discussing. No hard feelings.
Anyway, I did read all your post and appreciate you taking the time to write it. Maybe 'fervent worship' was the wrong choice of words, I was using hyperbole to mean it in the context that James has built up a strong band of defenders on here who all cite reasons for their appreciation of him as a winner: that he's not like the other winners, he's more credible than that, he's going to be absolutely massive because he's so talented etc, and all I'm trying to point out is that I haven't seen anything so far from him that makes me believe he's going to be a huge, game-changing breakout winner from the show. And I've never said he's another Matt Cardle, nor do I think I've commented on his looks, so both of those things you dislike don't really apply to me,
Anyway, we're not going to agree on the million selling singles thing. Some decent songs and some pretty awful songs have sold a million in this country, but my point was that if you're using that alone to justify why he's credible, it's possibly not the strongest of arguments, especially as Alexandra Burke, another XF winner, also sold a million in the time that James did, so he's not necessarily any more credible than her.
The rest of your argument about why he's credible is a lot more detailed and easier to see why you believe that. I'm just unsure why, if he is such a talented singer/songwriter, he felt the need to go on a show such as XF which anybody with industry experience (and plenty of people without) can see is a huge risk in terms of damaging your future career if you don't win (and sometimes even if you do win.) I don't think James's songwriting, from what I've heard of it, is exceptional enough to guarantee he would have been noticed without the XF, which I guess is one of the reasons he might have decided to go on it in the end, but maybe my doubt is more focused on the show itself at this point than James; I'm just not sure anybody who goes on the show knowing how blatantly manipulated it is really has 'credibilty' at the root of why they're doing it, especially at James's age which is not especially old, but in terms of industry standards is rapidly coming out of his 'prime' years.
With all that said, I've said from the start that I'll listen to James's album with fresh ears, because I do think he has potential and is most likely capable of producing a good album. I'm just not going to commit to thinking he's the real deal yet, because I have some concerns about the way he presents himself on Twitter, the way he seems to enjoy the 'perks' of fame (ie. piling into a taxi with a bunch of girls with questionable morals) and the way he's happy to accept the credible tag before he's let his music do the talking.
And I think that's the point I've been trying to make all along: it's his music, specifically his first album, that needs to do the talking at this point. You and I are clearly not going to agree on where James is at the moment, but I will listen to his album and give it a fair chance, because I like it when artists surprise me. I haven't written James off at all, I just like it when artists put their money where their mouth is and produce something of decent quality. I don't think it's right to dismiss an album before you've even heard it, but at the same time I don't think it's right to call an artist credible before they've even released their debut album.
Totally agree with you on the points you made re credibility & million selling singles. I think that the problem is that the first single (the winners single) has little to do with the artist and much more to do with the X Factor show. His first release will be a possible indicator of popularity, but I think it is the records released after that (the sophamore album and also the third one) which are more likely to determine whether they are really staying the course. The problem with the first album is that it will be with Syco (I presume), and I personally feel that the label pigeonholes their artists into a category and creates a certain image and stifles any creativity they may well have.
Actually Lucy Spraggan did this year in a couple of instances!
Credibility is quite possible for an X Factor artist but it is harder to achieve as there is an in-built 'wannabe' aspect to the X Factor which doesn't sit well with many other artists and the general pop audience.
To be a really credible artist you would probably have to do the live circuits, release original songs, sell more than a few hundred thousand and eventually appear on Jools Holland. There are not a lot of X Factor artists who have done all of those things! Being big pop stars like 1D doesn't make you credible. Rebecca Ferguson might be the closest so far to being credible! (Or Rowetta from Happy Mondays?)
As for James Arthur's version of 'Impossible', I prefer the original but I have listened to some of his original works and some of that stuff is reasonably good but nothing special yet!
Constructive comment from Michelle. Wow!!:D:D:p
Also do you accept that 1D will be staying the course as their sophomore album has outperformed the first in terms of sales?:p
With regards to Syco pigeonholing their artists, Labrinth is signed to syco, he does his own thing. Also I think it's because of comments like this that has led to them co-signing some of the X Factor acts with other labels. Matt Cardle foreinstance was co-signed to Columbia UK, but still didn't make a difference though, did it?:p
With 1D - all I will say is that releasing the second album so quickly after the first helped sales of both as it kept them in the public eye. And they do appeal to the 12-16 market mainly, which were still within that age group when both albums were released. I reckon if they leave some distance before the release of a 3rd they could be struggling.
You could well be right re Labrinth - and Matt Cardle, well perhaps he didnt have the X Factor after all and I reckon that proves the point about those having good selling winners singles not necessarily making it as artists.
lolz!! that's definitely different from saying 1D was on a downward trajectory before TMH, LWWY and LT landed.;)
but the 2nd album is a whole12 months after the first one here in UK. just so happened they have to do a worldwide sale all at once (give or take a day or two) as they are now a bonafide GLOBAL PHENOMENON!! besides, with their tight schedule, when else can they release it and still have time for rehearsals for their WORLDWIDE ARENA TOUR that kicks off in february 2013, next month?!!
expect a 3rd album shortly after they finish their arena tour in november 2013. and as they're signed to release an album a year for the next 3 years, make that every year.:D
Globally popular at the moment - Yes.
I am not surprised that the label want them to release an album every year for the next 3 years - I reckon they realise that when the current crop of 12-16 year olds leave that age bracket, so the majority of their fanbase will move on so they'll want to milk 'the cow quickly' before it disappears. Makes good business sense.:D
and a very good place to be if you ask me, lolz!!:p
when the fanbase leave that age bracket, remains to be seen... but you can't totally discount the possibility of the boys maturing in their sound and a segment of their present audience maturing with them. westlife went far longer than initially expected... take that reunited and was bigger than ever!!
but that's the future and today is now. and now is a very good place indeed. :cool:
Agreed its abysmal compared to Shontelle's version. It's also more suited for a woman to sing.
2nd and 3rd singles need to do well or he will vanish a la cardle.
Im siding with the average 2nd single sales and vanishing 3rd single.
1st album might shift a few if its timed right.
i don't think it is a problem as such. it's supposed to do well: it is a winner's song.
i can only imagine what detractors would have said had it not "done so well".
So true. I think some are disappointed the single didn't bomb.:D
I love it how picked a tiny snippet of my argument. I have defined credibility already. Credible artist = REAL MUSIC artist. Playing the guitar, playing the piano, rapping and using a strong falsetto may all be incredibly trivial but they are all actually very difficult to do and require some skill, some musical talent and training to do (sometimes a lot like a falsetto, especially with James's tenor voice and even playing the guitar so spontaneously like he does). Again it may be trivial but it proves he's more of a real music artist, as well as demonstrating a commitment to music, music being his everything pretty much.