I would like the showdance to have to be ballroom and/or Latin, not tap, modern, etc

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  • MonksealMonkseal Posts: 12,008
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    Monaogg wrote: »
    Not sure what you are disagreeing with..

    That the relaxation of rules in other dances has made it more difficult to produce a memorable showdance. I don't think it's made any difference at all, and the results bear that out. Caroline & Pasha did a contemporary rumba showdance only one week after Mark & Karen did a contemporary rumba rumba. Didn't seem to make any difference to the people at home.
  • CamisCamis Posts: 13,532
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    At the start of Caroline's show dance with all those wafty cloths I thought that it was going to be another Bacofoil!

    I'm not sure that there could ever be another Bacofoil!
  • aggsaggs Posts: 29,458
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    Why should it - I hate props and backing dancers as much as the next person as I generally don't think they improve a dance (there are a couple of exceptions but not many), but often a celeb's additional skills can improve a dance, so why should they not do so when the whole point of the final is for them to show themselves off in the best possible light to win enough votes to get the glitterball. If that's not the point of the final, then what is?..

    The thing is, the celebs additional skills come in many forms - and not just dance.

    I'm now imagining a bit sort of Hay Day bacon extractor - Strictlyfied with sparkles, of course, that a celeb is inserted into - so Jake would his acting ability extracted, Simon his actual stint in a musical wiped from his memory, ballet lessons, dance routines and training wiped in a flash. But it still wouldn't work - unless the machine operates backwards and it could pass on some of Steven's ebullience to Thom or some of Judy's Judiness on to Scott. Even then, I doubt they would ever be totally even.
  • aggsaggs Posts: 29,458
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    Camis wrote: »
    I'm not sure that there could ever be another Bacofoil!

    It was a coming together of so much, that it would be hard to repeat. Hope, ambition, lack of skill, 80's soft rock, almost running In to the stealth Christmas tree (my favourite bit, makes me flinch every time).
  • MonaoggMonaogg Posts: 19,990
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    Monkseal wrote: »
    That the relaxation of rules in other dances has made it more difficult to produce a memorable showdance. I don't think it's made any difference at all, and the results bear that out. Caroline & Pasha did a contemporary rumba showdance only one week after Mark & Karen did a contemporary rumba rumba. Didn't seem to make any difference to the people at home.

    Makes is harder. But then with effort comes reward. ;-)
  • jeffiner1892jeffiner1892 Posts: 14,215
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    aggs wrote: »
    It was a coming together of so much, that it would be hard to repeat. Hope, ambition, lack of skill, 80's soft rock, almost running In to the stealth Christmas tree (my favourite bit, makes me flinch every time).

    I suppose that's true. It was probably more when I saw all the cloth all I could think was "this will go horribly wrong".
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 507
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    Monkseal wrote: »
    That the relaxation of rules in other dances has made it more difficult to produce a memorable showdance. I don't think it's made any difference at all, and the results bear that out. Caroline & Pasha did a contemporary rumba showdance only one week after Mark & Karen did a contemporary rumba rumba. Didn't seem to make any difference to the people at home.

    People have short memories.

    Take a contemporary Rumba and add a few spectacular lifts - such as the one from Thom and Iveta's Week 2 Salsa - and you have the bare bones of a Showdance.

    It would still take a trained dancer to nail a lift which made Iveta look like an amateur. But three months in a training room with Strictly's King of Lifts will do that :)

    Bodywork's attempt to gain a bit of publicity via that craftily worded tribute was a triumph of misdirection -

    [ her teacher who owns Bodywork Dance Studios has made much of Caroline's showdance, saying "it was a real BodyWork dance" and "could only have been done by a trained dancer." ]
  • PashultyPashulty Posts: 9,384
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    At the start of Caroline's show dance with all those wafty cloths I thought that it was going to be another Bacofoil!

    hehehe .... given Pasha's two previous showdance offerings I was a bit apprehensive ... but no .... wasn't worried it would be bacofoil part 2 ....nobody ... I mean nobody ... not even blessed Brendan can reproduce that bacofoil I think .... :o:D

    Have to say my favourite showdances are Tom & Camilla, Jason & Kristina and Jill & Darren, Alesha & Matt ( youtube only as I started watching the show a lot later ) and now Caroline & Pasha's too ! :)
  • bendymixerbendymixer Posts: 18,628
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    I love ballroom and latin showdance in competitions, but agree that on strictly it should be anything goes no specific style just a pro doing a routine to their partners strengths. Pasha did a great routine to Caroline's strengths and it was obvious she knew how to be lifted which helps greatly so althougth her previous bodywork teaching would have helped it has to be Pasha who takes credit for routine not them
  • VeriVeri Posts: 96,996
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    bendymixer wrote: »
    I love ballroom and latin showdance in competitions, but agree that on strictly it should be anything goes no specific style just a pro doing a routine to their partners strengths. Pasha did a great routine to Caroline's strengths and it was obvious she knew how to be lifted which helps greatly so althougth her previous bodywork teaching would have helped it has to be Pasha who takes credit for routine not them

    If her previous bodywork teaching would have helped, then it should have part of the credit. It's one of the things that enabled it to be that routine, with its particular strengths, rather than some other one that wouldn't have done as much to help her win.

    If the showdance is "anything goes", then it can take significant advantage of pre-strictly training in one of the types of dancing that features in the showdance. The justification for allowing past training is that it's allowed if it's not in ballroom or latin, because then it's not directly relevant to what they do in SCD. But if they can use other types of dancing in the showdance, it can become directly relevant to what they do in the showdance, and the showdance comes at a crucial moment in the competition and can make the differece between winning and losing. So, in effect, contestants aren't allowed to have that sort of unfair advantage ... except in the showdance, where it's suddenly allowed. :(
  • MonaoggMonaogg Posts: 19,990
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    Veri wrote: »
    If her previous bodywork teaching would have helped, then it should have part of the credit. It's one of the things that enabled it to be that routine, with its particular strengths, rather than some other one that wouldn't have done as much to help her win.

    If the showdance is "anything goes", then it can take significant advantage of pre-strictly training in one of the types of dancing that features in the showdance. The justification for allowing past training is that it's allowed if it's not in ballroom or latin, because then it's not directly relevant to what they do in SCD. But if they can use other types of dancing in the showdance, it can become directly relevant to what they do in the showdance, and the showdance comes at a crucial moment in the competition and can make the differece between winning and losing. So, in effect, contestants aren't allowed to have that sort of unfair advantage ... except in the showdance, where it's suddenly allowed. :(

    However, it is a long way from September to the final, with many opportunities to be eliminated along the way. If someone has managed to stay the course it seems very churlish to suddenly bar them from working to their strengths.
  • VeriVeri Posts: 96,996
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    Monaogg wrote: »
    However, it is a long way from September to the final, with many opportunities to be eliminated along the way. If someone has managed to stay the course it seems very churlish to suddenly bar them from working to their strengths.

    The could still work to any strengths that aren't pre-Strictly training and experience in forms of dance they use in Strictly. It's not like I'm saying they mustn't be allowed to use any strengths.

    I don't think there's anything churlish to having a consistent rule that says they can't have prior training in forms of dance they use in Strictly. I think it's wrong to make an exception for the showdance. And the easiest way to restore consistency is to say the showdance must be based in Latin and / or Ballroom.

    And even though it's a long way from September to the final, the showdance can still make a crucial difference. It's wrong to suddenly redefine "unfair advantage" in the final, for the showdance.
  • robbleonarobbleona Posts: 6,261
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    Veri wrote: »
    It was annoying when Tom Chambers tap-danced his way to victory, and now Caroline has done a "Tom Chambers" by using pre-Strictly dance skills to make a more impressive showdance.

    Just as Tom used tap, Caroline used the dance skills she'd learned during her 3 years of training at the Bodywork Dance Studios. Theresa Kerr (who owns the Studios and taught Caroline) said Caroline's "show dance was exquisite. It was a real BodyWork dance, something that could have been choreographed here and it could only have been done by a trained dancer.. (Emphasis added) (Source: Cambridge News)

    Since it seems this point can be "misunderstood" when I use a word such as "make" or "create", I do not mean she was solely responsible for the dance, or that she choreographed it -- though she may well have had a role in that process.

    My point is that it was a type of dancing she had studied ("It was a real BodyWork dance") and, according to her own teacher, "it could only have been done by a trained dancer." She used her Bodywork skills in the dance. Indeed, Bodywork Company Dance Studios seems to be highlighting it for both those reasons: because it showcased her Bodywork training.

    I think the showdances should have to be based on the skills they learned on Strictly and not be an opportunity for celebs with pre-strictly dance training to show it off. (I'd think the same if, for example, Pixie did a ballet routine for her showdance.)
    So I presume frankie did ok then in hers......;-)
  • MonaoggMonaogg Posts: 19,990
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    Veri wrote: »
    The could still work to any strengths that aren't pre-Strictly training and experience in forms of dance they use in Strictly. It's not like I'm saying they mustn't be allowed to use any strengths.

    I don't think there's anything churlish to having a consistent rule that says they can't have prior training in forms of dance they use in Strictly. I think it's wrong to make an exception for the showdance. And the easiest way to restore consistency is to say the showdance must be based in Latin and / or Ballroom.

    And even though it's a long way from September to the final, the showdance can still make a crucial difference. It's wrong to suddenly redefine "unfair advantage" in the final, for the showdance.

    Yet it was clear throughout this recent series Frankie was particularly strong in Ballroom as was Simon. Where Mark & Caroline were better at Latin.

    So Kevin rightly choreographed to Frankie's strength in ballroom. Karen worked to Mark's Jive strengths. Kristina did a bit of all sorts with body popping for Simon. So in theory a slow contemporary dance is not the most obvious show routine to choose for Caroline, with many mutterings throwing doubt on the whole thing before a step was danced.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 507
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    Monaogg wrote: »
    Yet it was clear throughout this recent series Frankie was particularly strong in Ballroom as was Simon. Where Mark & Caroline were better at Latin.

    So Kevin rightly choreographed to Frankie's strength in ballroom. Karen worked to Mark's Jive strengths. Kristina did a bit of all sorts with body popping for Simon. So in theory a slow contemporary dance is not the most obvious show routine to choose for Caroline, with many mutterings throwing doubt on the whole thing before a step was danced.

    It becomes a more obvious choice when taking into account Caroline's other two routines in the Final - the Cha Cha Cha and the Charleston.

    Those two routines ticked the following boxes -

    Technical precision.
    Energy.
    Fun.

    What other strengths did Caroline have that could have impressed viewers enough to vote for her?

    A "strength" isn't a routine or a lift the celeb has been taught. It's an innate talent for certain activities such as singing, dancing, gymnastics, chess etc.

    When 43-yr-old Susanna Reid was partnered with Kevin last year she surprised him in Training by performing a cartwheel early on, which he incorporated into an early routine.

    One assumes Susanna (and perhaps Caroline) always had the co-ordination and flexibility that make gymnastics enjoyable for some kids - and that, had she been ten years younger, Kevin would have been able to teach her spectacular lifts.

    Cheslsee Healey was demonstrating great musicality from her first Ballroom routine. And her personality and joy of dancing shone through in every Latin routine. Doubtless she'd had the benefit of years of "prior training" on the dance floors of Manchester's clubs.

    Both Chelsee and Frankie at 23 and 25 respectively had the youth and physical condition for spectacular lifts. But neither of them were, as Bruno observed, as "fearless" as Caroline.

    If Pasha told Caroline she was capable of mastering something she believed him. As for the most relevant "prior training" -

    [ Caroline Flack grew up near Thetford, in Norfolk, where she attended the local comprehensive, Wayland High School, getting involved in plays and pantomimes.

    "She was always a bright and lively girl, very popular and capable," says one of her former teachers, Mike Tynan.

    "Her passion at school was dance and she stood out, even at an early age." ]

    When it came to the Showdance, Pasha tailored the choreography to leverage Caroline's innate talent for expressing emotion through dance.

    He kept it as natural as possible - not a million miles away from watching a little girl run around to a song trying to emulate a ballerina.

    (In future any little girl caught doing that should be barred from Strictly - as indeed should Chelsee have been. And the Launch Show should include a section detailing celeb participation in school pantomimes).

    Sadly I can't prove Caroline's routines at Wayland High School didn't include lifts.

    If they did - the clumsy, half-hearted early attempts in the Training Room vids - accompanied by "Pasha I can't do this", "Yes you can" - suggest that learning lifts isn't like learning to ride a bike.

    Pasha had started in Week 8(?) with that relatively safe "Death drop" lift, and had been making them increasingly ambitious. By the Final Caroline was enough of a "trained dancer" to attempt a really ambitious lift.

    That centrepiece lift in the Showdance looks rather similar to one in Thom and Iveta's Week 2 Salsa.

    I seem to remember around that time hearing Thom thank Pasha for helping him with the lifts.

    Therefore Pasha simply took a contemporary Rumba (such as the one Mark and Karen delivered in the Semi-final) - which provided the ideal vehicle for Caroline to portray her Strictly experience - and threw in a few spectacular lifts which HIS training had made Caroline capable of executing.

    100% Made in Strictly - leveraging innate talent Caroline and Pasha have had since birth.

    It's not realistic to bar from Strictly any celeb with an innate talent for dance or performance. A celeb with innate musicality, for example, is always going to have a massive advantage over a celeb lacking musicality - even if the latter has had years of dance training.
  • MonaoggMonaogg Posts: 19,990
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    Thank you apenny4them.

    To me a show dance/freestyle should be whatever they choose to dance. Good or bad (and we have seen some doozies) it is the one area where free reign is essential.
  • robbleonarobbleona Posts: 6,261
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    At the start of Caroline's show dance with all those wafty cloths I thought that it was going to be another Bacofoil!

    Wasn't there some 'borrowing' done from the ed sheeran video anyway? MARK WENT BAREFOOT THE WEEK BEFORE AS WELL.....
    How many real dance steps were in it, when you take away the admittedly excellent pasha lifts and the caroline arty-farty in the air stuff she has obviously trained to do over the years?
  • robbleonarobbleona Posts: 6,261
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    It becomes a more obvious choice when taking into account Caroline's other two routines in the Final - the Cha Cha Cha and the Charleston.

    Those two routines ticked the following boxes -

    Technical precision.
    Energy.
    Fun.

    What other strengths did Caroline have that could have impressed viewers enough to vote for her?

    A "strength" isn't a routine or a lift the celeb has been taught. It's an innate talent for certain activities such as singing, dancing, gymnastics, chess etc.

    When 43-yr-old Susanna Reid was partnered with Kevin last year she surprised him in Training by performing a cartwheel early on, which he incorporated into an early routine.

    One assumes Susanna (and perhaps Caroline) always had the co-ordination and flexibility that make gymnastics enjoyable for some kids - and that, had she been ten years younger, Kevin would have been able to teach her spectacular lifts.

    Cheslsee Healey was demonstrating great musicality from her first Ballroom routine. And her personality and joy of dancing shone through in every Latin routine. Doubtless she'd had the benefit of years of "prior training" on the dance floors of Manchester's clubs.

    Both Chelsee and Frankie at 23 and 25 respectively had the youth and physical condition for spectacular lifts. But neither of them were, as Bruno observed, as "fearless" as Caroline.

    If Pasha told Caroline she was capable of mastering something she believed him. As for the most relevant "prior training" -

    [ Caroline Flack grew up near Thetford, in Norfolk, where she attended the local comprehensive, Wayland High School, getting involved in plays and pantomimes.

    "She was always a bright and lively girl, very popular and capable," says one of her former teachers, Mike Tynan.

    "Her passion at school was dance and she stood out, even at an early age." ]

    When it came to the Showdance, Pasha tailored the choreography to leverage Caroline's innate talent for expressing emotion through dance.

    He kept it as natural as possible - not a million miles away from watching a little girl run around to a song trying to emulate a ballerina.

    (In future any little girl caught doing that should be barred from Strictly - as indeed should Chelsee have been. And the Launch Show should include a section detailing celeb participation in school pantomimes).

    Sadly I can't prove Caroline's routines at Wayland High School didn't include lifts.

    If they did - the clumsy, half-hearted early attempts in the Training Room vids - accompanied by "Pasha I can't do this", "Yes you can" - suggest that learning lifts isn't like learning to ride a bike.

    Pasha had started in Week 8(?) with that relatively safe "Death drop" lift, and had been making them increasingly ambitious. By the Final Caroline was enough of a "trained dancer" to attempt a really ambitious lift.

    That centrepiece lift in the Showdance looks rather similar to one in Thom and Iveta's Week 2 Salsa.

    I seem to remember around that time hearing Thom thank Pasha for helping him with the lifts.

    Therefore Pasha simply took a contemporary Rumba (such as the one Mark and Karen delivered in the Semi-final) - which provided the ideal vehicle for Caroline to portray her Strictly experience - and threw in a few spectacular lifts which HIS training had made Caroline capable of executing.

    100% Made in Strictly - leveraging innate talent Caroline and Pasha have had since birth.

    It's not realistic to bar from Strictly any celeb with an innate talent for dance or performance. A celeb with innate musicality, for example, is always going to have a massive advantage over a celeb lacking musicality - even if the latter has had years of dance training.

    I suggest you start watching something different now...did you know Broadchurch is on on Mondays...and Celeb BB is starting soon........that might wean you off her..
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