I know this will never happen but what is a required is a third national SFN network devoted to 5 192kbps channels for the likes of R3, Classic FM and perhaps R2 Absolute and another suitable station from the BBC or commercial sector. The other stations on the BBC national and D1 mux's could then increase their bit rate accordingly. This will at least give us a reasonable quality DAB network to replace the analogue radio network. As I said this is just a dream of mine and will be killed off by the bean counters.
An alternative if d2 goes ahead is to perhaps have a 2nd simulcast Classic FM, Jazz FM, Planetrock, Smooth, Magic etc stations working at 128k AAC DAB+ alongside standard DAB, so providing good sound and some backward compatibility? But the cost will still work out the same, if not more than 192k standard DAB?.
We were reminded in a recent edition of “Radio User” ( August or September – can't quite recall ) that since 2009, every decent-quality DAB radio ( i.e. Roberts, Pure, etc and not budget ones from ALDI or Tesco ) can have their EPROMS flashed ( or similar ) to be able to decode DAB+. Indeed my Roberts Solar DAB II has such a USB socket for that purpose. So what you're saying is that despite every sensible radio since 2009 being able to go to DAB+, this will never happen, and they're all white elephants ?
I suspect the overwhelming majority of DAB radios have never been connected to the Internet for software updates or anything else i.e. even Internet radios.
Most users would have no idea how to do it and of course some would lock up and stop working during the update to DAB+.
So some sort of system would need to be set up to upgrade radios but many have been bought online and most vendors have no technical capability to do updates.
The update would need to be done in advance of the change but most people would not know of the need or understand what was happening.
I have written before that I am sure the commercial stations would love the BBC to change first and so lose listeners to them. The only fair way would be to have a complete change to DAB+ for all stations on the same day along with adding extra services at the same time - normal listeners have no interest in a slight claimed improvement in quality.
I suspect the overwhelming majority of DAB radios have never been connected to the Internet for software updates or anything else i.e. even Internet radios.
Most Internet radios have never been connected to the Internet?? If that's the case, why did their owners buy them?
The update would need to be done in advance of the change... The only fair way would be to have a complete change to DAB+ for all stations on the same day ...
Why? Provided that DAB transmissions didn't all cease overnight, upgrades to DAB+ could take place if and when the user chooses, in a similar manner to the parallel running of analogue and digital TV that took place for many years.
- normal listeners have no interest in a slightclaimed improvement in quality.
You don't have to be an 'abnormal' listener to expect that the new standard should be at least as good as FM, i.e. almost everything broadcast in STEREO !
Most Internet radios have never been connected to the Internet?? If that's the case, why did their owners buy them?
Why? You do seem seriously pessimistic !
Why? Provided that DAB transmissions didn't all cease overnight, upgrades to DAB+ could take place if and when the user chooses, in a similar manner to the parallel running of analogue and digital TV that took place for many years.
You don't have to be an 'abnormal' listener to expect that the new standard should be at least as good as FM, i.e. almost everything broadcast in STEREO !
That should have read that most DAB radios are never connected to the Internet, finger trouble! Then added that probably many Internet radios are never or not often connected to the Internet. I have two Pure Flow series but will go many months without using them for listening to an Internet station, perhaps a couple of times a year.
Just stating a fact that people will not understand how to upgrade their radio.
I suggested that the best way would be to convert all at the same time. Just imagine one of the commercial stations being told they must convert or that they can only get a licence for DAB+. They will want the BBC to be first but why should the BBC lose most of their listeners to one or more of their channels for many months until people upgrade.
Again, imagine being a commercial station forced to change to DAB+ and having to get their listeners to convert by telling them that they might notice a slight improvement in quality - most will not on small portable radios or in the environment of a car. They will lose most of their listeners. But the listeners will have more incentive to upgrade their set if they get extra channels.
I'm not 100% sure DAB+ really solves the capacity/quality/cost problem. It's better, but can it deliver more stations and better reception and higher quality and lower cost at the same time?
Look at DVB-T/MPEG-2/SD vs DVB-T2/H.264/HD. That's the kind of jump you need to make it worth changing at this stage.
Ironically, because we have DAB in the UK, it could be worth our while jumping to something newer far earlier than the countries which adopt DAB+. There's DVB-T2-lite and newer audio codecs (not all public). Probably too much of a radical change.
Those of you suggesting the BBC tries DAB+ first: using what capacity? I reckon a Radio4+1 would be cheap and worthwhile, but where's the space for it?
If D2 ever launches, then space should be reserved on there for a "temporary" BBC DAB+ station.
Globally, digital radio (in all its forms) still often looks like a solution in search of a problem. Drive around many European cities, and FM offers more choice than DAB in the UK, with better sound quality too (with the notable exception of Paris!). A lot (not all) of FM reception problems in the UK stem from our placement of FM transmitters away from population centres. Most other countries don't have that problem. Across most of the world, where there are fewer people, there is poorer reception;.where there are more people, there is better reception. The fact, in the UK, that you have beautiful reception across the near-uninhabited fields of Lincolnshire and shocking reception in the city of Nottingham is not just down to FM. Countries which don't have this problem have even less of a need for digital radio.
I'm not 100% sure DAB+ really solves the capacity/quality/cost problem. It's better, but can it deliver more stations and better reception and higher quality and lower cost at the same time?
Ignoring AAC licencing costs...
DAB+ basically offers the same audio quality for half the bit rate and improved error correction.
Basically all current D1 stations could switch to 64kbps Stereo for the same cost as 64kbps Mono - but would have audio quality similar to 128kbps stereo.
Basically if you can fill a multiplex you can run more stations for the same cost - if you can't fill it in MP2 DAB+ won't help you
Just read the article and the list of what transmitters are going where. Surprised in Essex only 2 transmitters are being launched in Harlow and Braintree (however the latter is desperately needed!). Reception for BBC DAB around parts of Maldon (Mainly by Fullbridge and Heybridge), Clacton, and even the far ends of Southend on Sea (Shoeburyness) can be pretty poor. An extra transmitter maybe on The Dengie Peninsula might have been a good idea. Aside from that it's good to see the coverage being upped!
DAB+ basically offers the same audio quality for half the bit rate and improved error correction.
Basically all current D1 stations could switch to 64kbps Stereo for the same cost as 64kbps Mono - but would have audio quality similar to 128kbps stereo.
Basically if you can fill a multiplex you can run more stations for the same cost - if you can't fill it in MP2 DAB+ won't help you
Yes - but if 90% of the radios out there won't receive it then, as a radio station owner, it would make no commercial sense to switch to DAB+.
Yes - but if 90% of the radios out there won't receive it then, as a radio station owner, it would make no commercial sense to switch to DAB+.
Radio stations need listeners!
Indeed - but the question I was answering was referring to costs of DAB+ (the lost revenue in the UK would be significant initially).
It wouldn't surprise me if the first use of DAB+ in the UK was for secondary channels
- e.g. "real" secondary channels (assuming DAB+ receivers can switch from a DAB+ stream back to a DAB one) such as BBC Radio Nottingham continuing Notts County commentary in DAB (so no adverse effect on DAB only listeners), with Mansfield Town (in addition to 1584MW) and Nottingham Forest (in addition to 103.8 and 95.1FM) as DAB+ secondary channels (i.e. providing a way of transitioning all analogue services to DAB).
- or spin off stations (e.g. Bauer adding Abs 60s, 70s, and 00s to their local multiplexes at 40-48kbps DAB+)
Indeed - but the question I was answering was referring to costs of DAB+ (the lost revenue in the UK would be significant initially).
It wouldn't surprise me if the first use of DAB+ in the UK was for secondary channels
- e.g. "real" secondary channels (assuming DAB+ receivers can switch from a DAB+ stream back to a DAB one) such as BBC Radio Nottingham continuing Notts County commentary in DAB (so no adverse effect on DAB only listeners), with Mansfield Town (in addition to 1584MW) and Nottingham Forest (in addition to 103.8 and 95.1FM) as DAB+ secondary channels (i.e. providing a way of transitioning all analogue services to DAB).
- or spin off stations (e.g. Bauer adding Abs 60s, 70s, and 00s to their local multiplexes at 40-48kbps DAB+)
You need a big draw to get people to change, not sure a few local football matches would be enough to have much impact. Similarly a few pop music stations covering different periods. If the BBC multiplex could include the four local BBC Scotland and Wales services nationally that would help because it would give them much better coverage in their local areas. The Asian network could be moved because as a niche market the few listeners might upgrade to receive it.
You need a big draw to get people to change, not sure a few local football matches would be enough to have much impact. Similarly a few pop music stations covering different periods. If the BBC multiplex could include the four local BBC Scotland and Wales services nationally that would help because it would give them much better coverage in their local areas. The Asian network could be moved because as a niche market the few listeners might upgrade to receive it.
Did you not noticed the word "first"? The DVB-T to DVB-T2 transition gives us an indication of what might happen - step 1 a simple carrot (e.g. give us all the HD services, or in DAB+ terms some spin offs), Step 2 move the commercial channels, Step 3 the PSBs. The DAB to DAB+ transition if/when it happens can be even more gradual, start with adding some "new" services in DAB+ (gives people an easy way to check if they have a DAB+ set) and improved quality on others (e.g. put the World Service, 4 Extra, and Asian Network in Stereo on Digital 2 for a transitional period), then eventually start migrating if/when the time has come probably with the niche services first.
Did you not noticed the word "first"? The DVB-T to DVB-T2 transition gives us an indication of what might happen - step 1 a simple carrot (e.g. give us all the HD services, or in DAB+ terms some spin offs), Step 2 move the commercial channels, Step 3 the PSBs. The DAB to DAB+ transition if/when it happens can be even more gradual, start with adding some "new" services in DAB+ (gives people an easy way to check if they have a DAB+ set) and improved quality on others (e.g. put the World Service, 4 Extra, and Asian Network in Stereo on Digital 2 for a transitional period), then eventually start migrating if/when the time has come probably with the niche services first.
But there's a will and a desire for consumers to upgrade their TV's for HD and the same by companies to create HD channels and a technological solution to allow it to happen via terrestrial television via DVB-T2.
There is no such desire for the radio industry to adopt DAB+, they seem steadfast to believe that the majority of people are very happy with DAB 64kbps mono sound, the radio experts are steadfast in advising the industry and Government that DAB+ should never be adopted in the UK - the recent cramming of stations in at 64kbps mono into a multiplex to fill it means any transition to DAB+ will now need more frequencies and greater expense, plus regardless of the DCMS requiring DAB+ to be made available in all future sets, free market capitalism and a media regulator which worships such a concept means that the radio industry is more than happy to say no to DAB+.
You have to start somewhere. If we'd always taken that view, we'd still be watching 405-line television.
But people changed to 625 lines to get an extra channel and later to get colour. If it had just been BBC1 on UHF in 625 lines then few would have upgraded even though slightly better quality.
There is no such desire for the radio industry to adopt DAB+, they seem steadfast to believe that the majority of people are very happy with DAB 64kbps mono sound,
The UTV Radio chief executive said not enough investigation had been done of a rival technology, DAB+, which would have the capacity to transfer all stations to digital, including smaller local commercial broadcasters.
Talksport at 64k will be OK and the major UTV music stations like Wave and Signal are 128k stereo (like the majority of the BBC, Global and Bauer stations). But some of the smaller UTV and other small scale music stations might be the first to use DAB+.
Talksport at 64k will be OK and the major UTV music stations like Wave and Signal are 128k stereo (like the majority of the BBC, Global and Bauer stations). But some of the smaller UTV and other small scale music stations might be the first to use DAB+.
I'm not really sure how DAB+ would help ALL the small stations migrate? In Central Lancashire for example there is 2BR, The Bee, Wave, Wish FM, Preston FM, Chorley FM which would all need accommodating and would end up with a coverage area well exceeding there target area. Shame DRM+ wasn't picked up quicker and integrated into a Digital Tick scheme
I'm not really sure how DAB+ would help ALL the small stations migrate? In Central Lancashire for example there is 2BR, The Bee, Wave, Wish FM, Preston FM, Chorley FM which would all need accommodating and would end up with a coverage area well exceeding there target area. Shame DRM+ wasn't picked up quicker and integrated into a Digital Tick scheme
DRM+ was tested in Edinburgh, but has some technical problems with coverage and frequencies, and there are no sets available.
Many small stations will stay FM and internet past a DSO.
I'm not really sure how DAB+ would help ALL the small stations migrate? In Central Lancashire for example there is 2BR, The Bee, Wave, Wish FM, Preston FM, Chorley FM which would all need accommodating and would end up with a coverage area well exceeding there target area. Shame DRM+ wasn't picked up quicker and integrated into a Digital Tick scheme
Isn't the point of the recent DAB(+) ensemble in Brighton designed to test the practicality of small scale DAB broadcasting for the likes of community stations, student stations and ultimately, local stations?
Isn't the point of the recent DAB(+) ensemble in Brighton designed to test the practicality of small scale DAB broadcasting for the likes of community stations, student stations and ultimately, local stations?
Yep, Ofcom's test was particularly to test the viability of low-cost small scale DAB/DAB+ broadcasts for local stations that don't want or need to cover large areas.
Just noticed the signal strength for the BBC mux has improved
in the last couple of days or so, so as I live in Basingstoke
perhaps Dr Pryde has switched on the first of the BBC's latest batch of DAB transmitters (it was number one on the list :cool:) ?
Just noticed the signal strength for the BBC mux has improved
in the last couple of days or so, so as I live in Basingstoke
perhaps Dr Pryde has switched on the first of the BBC's latest batch of DAB transmitters (it was number one on the list :cool:) ?
Just noticed the signal strength for the BBC mux has improved
in the last couple of days or so, so as I live in Basingstoke
perhaps Dr Pryde has switched on the first of the BBC's latest batch of DAB transmitters (it was number one on the list :cool:) ?
Well I remember they did say Basingstoke would be first - I wonder how long we have to wait for the next one??
Comments
I suspect the overwhelming majority of DAB radios have never been connected to the Internet for software updates or anything else i.e. even Internet radios.
Most users would have no idea how to do it and of course some would lock up and stop working during the update to DAB+.
So some sort of system would need to be set up to upgrade radios but many have been bought online and most vendors have no technical capability to do updates.
The update would need to be done in advance of the change but most people would not know of the need or understand what was happening.
I have written before that I am sure the commercial stations would love the BBC to change first and so lose listeners to them. The only fair way would be to have a complete change to DAB+ for all stations on the same day along with adding extra services at the same time - normal listeners have no interest in a slight claimed improvement in quality.
Why? You do seem seriously pessimistic !
Why? Provided that DAB transmissions didn't all cease overnight, upgrades to DAB+ could take place if and when the user chooses, in a similar manner to the parallel running of analogue and digital TV that took place for many years.
You don't have to be an 'abnormal' listener to expect that the new standard should be at least as good as FM, i.e. almost everything broadcast in STEREO !
That should have read that most DAB radios are never connected to the Internet, finger trouble! Then added that probably many Internet radios are never or not often connected to the Internet. I have two Pure Flow series but will go many months without using them for listening to an Internet station, perhaps a couple of times a year.
Just stating a fact that people will not understand how to upgrade their radio.
I suggested that the best way would be to convert all at the same time. Just imagine one of the commercial stations being told they must convert or that they can only get a licence for DAB+. They will want the BBC to be first but why should the BBC lose most of their listeners to one or more of their channels for many months until people upgrade.
Again, imagine being a commercial station forced to change to DAB+ and having to get their listeners to convert by telling them that they might notice a slight improvement in quality - most will not on small portable radios or in the environment of a car. They will lose most of their listeners. But the listeners will have more incentive to upgrade their set if they get extra channels.
Look at DVB-T/MPEG-2/SD vs DVB-T2/H.264/HD. That's the kind of jump you need to make it worth changing at this stage.
Ironically, because we have DAB in the UK, it could be worth our while jumping to something newer far earlier than the countries which adopt DAB+. There's DVB-T2-lite and newer audio codecs (not all public). Probably too much of a radical change.
Those of you suggesting the BBC tries DAB+ first: using what capacity? I reckon a Radio4+1 would be cheap and worthwhile, but where's the space for it?
If D2 ever launches, then space should be reserved on there for a "temporary" BBC DAB+ station.
Globally, digital radio (in all its forms) still often looks like a solution in search of a problem. Drive around many European cities, and FM offers more choice than DAB in the UK, with better sound quality too (with the notable exception of Paris!). A lot (not all) of FM reception problems in the UK stem from our placement of FM transmitters away from population centres. Most other countries don't have that problem. Across most of the world, where there are fewer people, there is poorer reception;.where there are more people, there is better reception. The fact, in the UK, that you have beautiful reception across the near-uninhabited fields of Lincolnshire and shocking reception in the city of Nottingham is not just down to FM. Countries which don't have this problem have even less of a need for digital radio.
Cheers,
David.
Ignoring AAC licencing costs...
DAB+ basically offers the same audio quality for half the bit rate and improved error correction.
Basically all current D1 stations could switch to 64kbps Stereo for the same cost as 64kbps Mono - but would have audio quality similar to 128kbps stereo.
Basically if you can fill a multiplex you can run more stations for the same cost - if you can't fill it in MP2 DAB+ won't help you
Yes - but if 90% of the radios out there won't receive it then, as a radio station owner, it would make no commercial sense to switch to DAB+.
Radio stations need listeners!
Indeed - but the question I was answering was referring to costs of DAB+ (the lost revenue in the UK would be significant initially).
It wouldn't surprise me if the first use of DAB+ in the UK was for secondary channels
- e.g. "real" secondary channels (assuming DAB+ receivers can switch from a DAB+ stream back to a DAB one) such as BBC Radio Nottingham continuing Notts County commentary in DAB (so no adverse effect on DAB only listeners), with Mansfield Town (in addition to 1584MW) and Nottingham Forest (in addition to 103.8 and 95.1FM) as DAB+ secondary channels (i.e. providing a way of transitioning all analogue services to DAB).
- or spin off stations (e.g. Bauer adding Abs 60s, 70s, and 00s to their local multiplexes at 40-48kbps DAB+)
You need a big draw to get people to change, not sure a few local football matches would be enough to have much impact. Similarly a few pop music stations covering different periods. If the BBC multiplex could include the four local BBC Scotland and Wales services nationally that would help because it would give them much better coverage in their local areas. The Asian network could be moved because as a niche market the few listeners might upgrade to receive it.
You have to start somewhere. If we'd always taken that view, we'd still be watching 405-line television.
Did you not noticed the word "first"? The DVB-T to DVB-T2 transition gives us an indication of what might happen - step 1 a simple carrot (e.g. give us all the HD services, or in DAB+ terms some spin offs), Step 2 move the commercial channels, Step 3 the PSBs. The DAB to DAB+ transition if/when it happens can be even more gradual, start with adding some "new" services in DAB+ (gives people an easy way to check if they have a DAB+ set) and improved quality on others (e.g. put the World Service, 4 Extra, and Asian Network in Stereo on Digital 2 for a transitional period), then eventually start migrating if/when the time has come probably with the niche services first.
There is no such desire for the radio industry to adopt DAB+, they seem steadfast to believe that the majority of people are very happy with DAB 64kbps mono sound, the radio experts are steadfast in advising the industry and Government that DAB+ should never be adopted in the UK - the recent cramming of stations in at 64kbps mono into a multiplex to fill it means any transition to DAB+ will now need more frequencies and greater expense, plus regardless of the DCMS requiring DAB+ to be made available in all future sets, free market capitalism and a media regulator which worships such a concept means that the radio industry is more than happy to say no to DAB+.
It ain't going to happen.
But people changed to 625 lines to get an extra channel and later to get colour. If it had just been BBC1 on UHF in 625 lines then few would have upgraded even though slightly better quality.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/feb/03/utv-radio-two-tier-future Talksport at 64k will be OK and the major UTV music stations like Wave and Signal are 128k stereo (like the majority of the BBC, Global and Bauer stations). But some of the smaller UTV and other small scale music stations might be the first to use DAB+.
I'm not really sure how DAB+ would help ALL the small stations migrate? In Central Lancashire for example there is 2BR, The Bee, Wave, Wish FM, Preston FM, Chorley FM which would all need accommodating and would end up with a coverage area well exceeding there target area. Shame DRM+ wasn't picked up quicker and integrated into a Digital Tick scheme
Many small stations will stay FM and internet past a DSO.
Signal 107 where several small stations are networked might be a good station to go DAB+ on the Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury mux?
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2012/03/signal-107-launches-in-west-midlands/
Yep, Ofcom's test was particularly to test the viability of low-cost small scale DAB/DAB+ broadcasts for local stations that don't want or need to cover large areas.
This is the original topic on the outcome: Ofcom reports on DAB with low cost transmission for small stations
in the last couple of days or so, so as I live in Basingstoke
perhaps Dr Pryde has switched on the first of the BBC's latest batch of DAB transmitters (it was number one on the list :cool:) ?
Way, hey !!!!! Boom town Basingstoke !!:p:D:cool:
Now on air - in service date 17/12/2013.
Farthinghoe 1.2kW
Northampton 2kW
159 transmitters and 2 years to go.