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700 MHz band confirmed for mobile broadband use

RadiomikeRadiomike Posts: 7,949
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http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2015/11/24/694-790-mhz-confirmed-for-mobile-broadband/

Essentially UHF channels 49 to 60 will have to be handed over for mobile broadband use potentially by 2020.

The report does speak of protection for terrestrial TV operators currently using the frequencies but does not make it clear what this "protection" amounts to.

Clearly this will have implications for Freeview as those frequencies are in use in many places.
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    BizmanBizman Posts: 749
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    This will affect every mux on my local transmitter, Mendip, apart from COM7-9 which I understand are only temporary anyway.
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    Brian The DogBrian The Dog Posts: 7,550
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    So less frequencies to use and more stuff crammed onto TV COMs that I won't be getting maybe ever.

    Just as well I have Freesat as they are killing Freeview.
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    albertdalbertd Posts: 14,361
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    And before anyone starts on about the EU, this is from the ITU, which is a United Nations agency, not from Brussels or Strasbourg.
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    kasgkasg Posts: 4,720
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    This is hardly news, Ofcom had some time ago confirmed that the 700MHz band would be allocated for mobile data use in the UK and published plans to enable DTT to continue. It will not be the death of Freeview, in itself.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/700MHz/statement/
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    Colin_LondonColin_London Posts: 12,718
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    It was inevitable from the moment Ofcom first published the consultation. Anything that makes the Government more money from licences. Plus other countries that use terrestrial less than the UK had already made the decision.

    This virtually guarantees the need for DSO2 to switch over to DVB-T2 for all remaining muxes as well as shuffle transmitter several allocations down into the band currently occupied by COM7 & 8. The interim COM7 & 8 muxes will have to close.
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    This virtually guarantees the need for DSO2 to switch over to DVB-T2 for all remaining muxes as well as shuffle transmitter several allocations down into the band currently occupied by COM7 & 8. The interim COM7 & 8 muxes will have to close.

    And also I suspect the need to cram the existing channels into three muxes per main transmittter instead of six.
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    technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,382
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    And also I suspect the need to cram the existing channels into three muxes per main transmittter instead of six.

    That is not what ofcom and those that understand spectrum planning say...
    The three/six muxes per site are retained all be it with some more sfns ,

    If the government has its way and DSO 2 means t2 AVC AAC .
    . Then we can get more channels and more HD subject to commercial issues
    and the BBC saves many tens of millions of pounds on dual emission ..
    At no extra cost if linked with contractual tech refresh.
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    kasgkasg Posts: 4,720
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    That is not what ofcom and those that understand spectrum planning say...
    Indeed, all of the information is on the Ofcom website and has been posted here before.
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    clewsyclewsy Posts: 4,222
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    If they switch to better compression methods, how many channels in theory could each muliplex carry in SD?

    Let's be honest this is what most channels will be.
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    kasg wrote: »
    Indeed, all of the information is on the Ofcom website and has been posted here before.

    Does it include a list of which channels each multiplex will broadcast on and at what power level?
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    kasgkasg Posts: 4,720
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    Does it include a list of which channels each multiplex will broadcast on and at what power level?
    Which channels each multiplex carries depends on what option is chosen, but the power levels shouldn't change. I suggest you read the documents yourself.
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    kasg wrote: »
    Which channels each multiplex carries depends on what option is chosen, but the power levels shouldn't change. I suggest you read the documents yourself.

    Which documents, there are thousands on the Ofcom site and most of them are rubbish.

    Just explain to me how you fit the same number of UHF channels/multiplexes into a smaller spectrum than occupied at present without drastically reducing power output?
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    reslfjreslfj Posts: 1,832
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    Just explain to me how you fit the same number of UHF channels/multiplexes into a smaller spectrum than occupied at present without drastically reducing power output?

    Changing from current 5 muxes to DVB-T2 MPEG-4 or HEVC compression will change the capacity around these figures:
    DVB-T  ->   DVB-T2        24.3 Mbit/s   -> 40.2 Mbit/s    (+67%) (PBS-1/2)
    MPEG-2 ->   MPEG-4        ~ 60% bitrate
    MPEG-2 ->   HEVC          ~ 33% bitrate
    
    Capacity increase with MPEG-4  ~= 1.67 / 0.6  = 2.75 times
    Capacity increase with HEVC    ~= 1.67 / 0.33 = 5    times
    

    (The PBS-3 mux is already DVB-T2/MPEG-4)
    The COM4-6 muxes have a little higher bitrate now)

    Upgrading SDTV to 720p50 HDTV or 1080p50 FullHD will require more capacity, but exacly how much more decreases over time.

    Lars :)
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    That increases the capacity per mux, it doesn't increase the capacity of a much reduced spectrum to host the same number of muxes as are broadcast over a much wider spectrum at present.
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    joshua_welbyjoshua_welby Posts: 9,027
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    It was inevitable from the moment Ofcom first published the consultation. Anything that makes the Government more money from licences. Plus other countries that use terrestrial less than the UK had already made the decision.

    This virtually guarantees the need for DSO2 to switch over to DVB-T2 for all remaining muxes as well as shuffle transmitter several allocations down into the band currently occupied by COM7 & 8. The interim COM7 & 8 muxes will have to close.

    Not so, there is the 500Mhz and the 600Mhz band left that Freeview could use,
    even OFCOM mentions using the 600Mhz band for Freeview plus we have the HEVEC spec/standard
    to reduce the space each channel takes up on a Mux
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    technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,382
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    Which documents, there are thousands on the Ofcom site and most of them are rubbish.

    Just explain to me how you fit the same number of UHF channels/multiplexes into a smaller spectrum than occupied at present without drastically reducing power output?

    Becuse you do a complete replan and are not tied to the current assignment based on legacy analogue assignments required by the government economic restriction for DSO 1 that home antenna were not to be touched unless absolutely needed.

    Documents start here http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/700MHz/statement/700-mhz-statement.pdf

    @ Clewsey Look at p36 (40) with 6 T2 muxes 112 SD 20 HD
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    SpotSpot Posts: 25,126
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    I'm surprised no one has linked to this document from as long ago as 2012 which looked at options in the event of this happening.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/uhf-strategy/arqiva.pdf
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    technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,382
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    Spot wrote: »
    I'm surprised no one has linked to this document from as long ago as 2012 which looked at options in the event of this happening.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/uhf-strategy/arqiva.pdf

    In pArt becuse things have moved on
    . But that proved that there is just more than enough spectrum to retain what we have at the moment Of terms if 6 /3 mux ...
    But local tv is not in that plan ... But there is white space
    There is better protection if T2 is used ...
    And also looking at a very few 700 MHz allocation being available for tv..
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    Becuse you do a complete replan and are not tied to the current assignment based on legacy analogue assignments required by the government economic restriction for DSO 1 that home antenna were not to be touched unless absolutely needed.

    Documents start here http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/700MHz/statement/700-mhz-statement.pdf

    @ Clewsey Look at p36 (40) with 6 T2 muxes 112 SD 20 HD
    Spot wrote: »
    I'm surprised no one has linked to this document from as long ago as 2012 which looked at options in the event of this happening.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/uhf-strategy/arqiva.pdf

    Thanks to both for the links.

    I understand that juggling of the existing frequencies will create some extra room but I'm not convinced that it will permit six multiplexes in all areas which currently receive six muxes.

    I also think they'll struggle to fill even three muxes if DVB-T2 becomes mandatory.
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    technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,382
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    I also think they'll struggle to fill even three muxes if DVB-T2 becomes mandatory.

    Why ?
    The PSB will be mandated to emit HD only ... The past and current government have said this ..l so it is likely and may be a condition in the LF settlement,
    Freeview tick is about to be withdrawn,,, so only Recievers which can also receive T2 and decode AVC AAC are accredited .. Freeview play or Freeview HD (+)
    So in say 4 years time.......

    And more channels want space and they also will need quality/ but rate as sub 720 pixel look crap on a to set now and worse on a 55in UHD etc,,,
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    Why ?

    I don't anticipate any net increase in either the total number of channels or the resolution they're broadcast in.

    Half the current BBC channels will be gone, assuming no more simulcasting and the vast majority of commercial channels will continue to be broadcast in 3/4SD resolution.

    So, plenty of room.
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    chrisychrisy Posts: 9,419
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    Half the current BBC channels will be gone, assuming no more simulcasting and the vast majority of commercial channels will continue to be broadcast in 3/4SD resolution.

    PSB3 is full (well, to all intents and purposes)
    COM7 is full

    That's two muxes, and they are already in DVB-T2. Even removing simulcasts you still need to fit the contents of more than three DVB-T multiplexes into one DVB-T2 mux to get everything into three DVB-T2 muxes.
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    ntscuserntscuser Posts: 8,247
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    chrisy wrote: »
    PSB3 is full (well, to all intents and purposes)

    Not for long. BBC3 is going off-air soon and there are doubts whether CBBC will continue much longer.
    chrisy wrote: »
    COM7 is full

    BBC4HD and CBeebiesHD may be moving to PSB3 in the near future, that's if BBC4 survives the next round of cuts. All the channels on COM7 are temporary anyway, there's no certainty any of them will continue after DSO2.

    PSB1 will be virtually empty and PSB2 will have a big gap where ITV1 and Channel 4 used to be. The remaining channels on PSB2 will take up only a fraction of the space they did before.
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    chrisychrisy Posts: 9,419
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    ntscuser wrote: »
    Not for long. BBC3 is going off-air soon and there are doubts whether CBBC will continue much longer.

    But C5 will eventually be forced to broadcast FTA in HD. (and that's the first I've heard about CBBC closing)
    BBC4HD and CBeebiesHD may be moving to PSB3 in the near future, that's if BBC4 survives the next round of cuts. All the channels on COM7 are temporary anyway, there's no certainty any of them will continue after DSO2.

    No, but if the broadcasters are content to provide them now and are seeing benefit, there's a good chance they will want to continue. If the system gets limited to three muxes everywhere, they won't be able to do that as there will be no space or it will be too expensive.
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