People who have done awful things also have a habit of trying to justify their actions and over time, they even start to believe their own justifications. I find it hard to believe someone who wasn't severely mentally ill could manage to accidently smother a baby to death. Normal 15 year olds would understand, blocking a babies nose and mouth will kill them. I think the court have decided to be compassionate in this case, since the woman showed so much remorse, and it's an old case.
Just maybe she was a stressed to buggery, 15 year old FGS, totally demonised unmarried mother in the 60's and she wasn't capable of thinking the way she should? Is that acceptable to you as it, perfectly understandably, seems to have been to the court.
Just maybe she was a stressed to buggery, 15 year old FGS, unmarried mother in the 60's and she wasn't capable of thinking the way she should? Is that acceptable to you as it, perfectly understandably, seems to have been to the court.
Depends how you mean 'accept'.
I accept it as a potential reason, I don't accept killing a baby is ok.
I accept it as a potential reason, I don't accept killing a baby is ok.
Good and no-one is saying it's ok. Now imagine how she's felt for decades, just the same as you. This was her precious baby who she was struggling just to keep for herself and against all the odds, defying the cruel hypocritical condemnation at that time.
Bad enough to confess when she didn't have to. My heart goes out to her.
Just maybe she was a stressed to buggery, 15 year old FGS, totally demonised unmarried mother in the 60's and she wasn't capable of thinking the way she should? Is that acceptable to you as it, perfectly understandably, seems to have been to the court.
I agree lets remember it's 1963 and abortion is ilegal. No doubt she was told "you got pregnant you look after the child it's your problem", "Keep that child quiet", "Your a ****". Of course it does not excuse the killing of a child. However you could see how a young girl could become overwhelmed, then in a moment of madness do something unthinkable.
Long lost family on tv is littered with cases of young mums from that era unable to cope. Putting their children up for adoption. There is probably a good chance that would also have happened here but a tragedy happened first. I suspect there were other cases like this back in the day.
Good and no-one is saying it's ok. Now imagine how she's felt for decades. This was her precious baby who she was struggling just to keep for herself and against all the odds, defying the cruel hypocritical condemnation at that time.
Bad enough to confess when she didn't have to. My heart goes out to her.
I do have some sympathy for her, I just think we have to be careful, I mean there must have been thousands of women at that time, who faced the same odds and didn't kill their babies.
People who have done awful things also have a habit of trying to justify their actions and over time, they even start to believe their own justifications. I find it hard to believe someone who wasn't severely mentally ill could manage to accidently smother a baby to death. Normal 15 year olds would understand, blocking a babies nose and mouth will kill them. I think the court have decided to be compassionate in this case, since the woman showed so much remorse, and it's an old case.
I do have some sympathy for her, I just think we have to be careful, I mean there must have been thousands of women at that time, who faced the same odds and didn't kill their babies.
I don't understand why you are comparing this lady to all these other people, your niece (who is not a mother) and other teenage mums at the time. The circumstances of this were specific to this lady and her family as every baby is different and every family is different.
Having been a teenage mother myself although two years older than this lady I fully understand the stress and pressure she would have been under. There were moments when I thought I just couldn't handle having a baby any more and I didn't know what to do to stop him crying as he had colic. Thankfully I had the support of health professionals who had drummed into me from the beginning if you feel under pressure lay the baby in his cot and leave him until you have calmed down. This girl seeminly didn't have the support of health professionals or her family as to what to do with a screaming baby.
To me it seems like she made a knee jerk reaction without fully thinking through what the consequences would be.
I do have some sympathy for her, I just think we have to be careful, I mean there must have been thousands of women at that time, who faced the same odds and didn't kill their babies.
I don't think you have any idea how different it was over 50 years ago, on every count. It was a very tragic accident and your comment is not really helpful, unless all unmarried 15 year old mothers faced exactly the same stresses as she did, had the same level of mental health and coping strategies.
I don't understand why you are comparing this lady to all these other people, your niece (who is not a mother) and other teenage mums at the time. The circumstances of this were specific to this lady and her family as every baby is different and every family is different.
Having been a teenage mother myself although two years older than this lady I fully understand the stress and pressure she would have been under. There were moments when I thought I just couldn't handle having a baby any more and I didn't know what to do to stop him crying as he had colic. Thankfully I had the support of health professionals who had drummed into me from the beginning if you feel under pressure lay the baby in his cot and leave him until you have calmed down. This girl seeminly didn't have the support of health professionals or her family as to what to do with a screaming baby.
To me it seems like she made a knee jerk reaction without fully thinking through what the consequences would be.
I'm not assuming circumstances, I'm saying having a bad time as a single mum in the 60's is not unique to her, and yet mothers killing their babies is much rarer.
I don't think you have any idea how different it was over 50 years ago, on every count. It was a very tragic accident and your comment is not really helpful, unless all women faced the same stresses, had the same level of mental health and coping strategies.
What do you mean, not helpful? It's my opinion on this subject, as with anybody else's. Not sure why you're picking on my post in particular.
I don't understand why you are comparing this lady to all these other people, your niece (who is not a mother) and other teenage mums at the time. The circumstances of this were specific to this lady and her family as every baby is different and every family is different.
Having been a teenage mother myself although two years older than this lady I fully understand the stress and pressure she would have been under. There were moments when I thought I just couldn't handle having a baby any more and I didn't know what to do to stop him crying as he had colic. Thankfully I had the support of health professionals who had drummed into me from the beginning if you feel under pressure lay the baby in his cot and leave him until you have calmed down. This girl seeminly didn't have the support of health professionals or her family as to what to do with a screaming baby.
To me it seems like she made a knee jerk reaction without fully thinking through what the consequences would be.
Hear hear, I can't imagine how much she's suffered.
I'm not "picking on your post". I'm replying to your post to me.
Well, it was you who replied to me first actually and took exception to my post whilst ignoring people calling her a murderer or whatever was said earlier.
I said I had sympathy for her, but that wasn't good enough for you. At the end of the day, she killed a baby and she shouldn't have.
How could they possibly know after so long- the only evidence they are going on is her word. I think the court have just accepted in this case.
It seems to me that her word just might be worth something since she came forward and told her story unprompted when she had 'got away' with it for years. She didn't have to speak up and no one would ever have known. Her child has haunted her for years, thst's clear. I hope she can find peace of mind now.
I'm not assuming circumstances, I'm saying having a bad time as a single mum in the 60's is not unique to her, and yet mothers killing their babies is much rarer.
That's exactly what you are doing and she wasn't just a single mum she was a teenage mum with two ill parents and no family support or support from health professionals. Being a teen with two ill parents is hard enough in itself add in a baby who she says cried constantly and you can get a picture of how hard it would have been.
I think this is most definitely one of those cases were you just can't understand the situation unless you've been in similar yourself.
It seems to me that her word just might be worth something since she came forward and told her story unprompted when she had 'got away' with it for years. She didn't have to speak up and no one would ever have known. Her child has haunted her for years, thst's clear. I hope she can find peace of mind now.
I know that, but I do wonder how her mind would have coped with that guilt for all those years. It's certainly much easier to kid yourself into thinking you didn't mean to kill the child, then perhaps confess because of that continued guilt. People want catharsis and there's a need to share and not bottle it all up, but people obviously don't want people to think they're evil either.
That's exactly what you are doing and she wasn't just a single mum she was a teenage mum with two ill parents and no family support or support from health professionals. Being a teen with two ill parents is hard enough in itself add in a baby who she says cried constantly and you can get a picture of how hard it would have been.
I think this is most definitely one of those cases were you just can't understand the situation unless you've been in similar yourself.
No, that's what you were doing. You were saying she was in a terrible situation and I said other women will have faced the same terrible situation (that being of how single mothers were treated in the past). You then said her situation is unique to her. So what are you assuming about her situation that was worse for her that wasn't present in all the single mothers from that time who did not kill their babies?
How could you possibly gather that from 'I tend to agree with the judge'?
Simply that issues of crime and punishment are highly politicised.
Because you immediately followed agreement with the judge by a statement which implied some sort of favoured status and a politicalisation which you still haven't explained.
The judge seemed to take the specific unusual circumstances of this specific case into account and showed mercy. I'm still wondering why anyone would think that was politcal.
No, that's what you were doing. You were saying she was in a terrible situation and I said other women will have faced the same terrible situation (that being of how single mothers were treated in the past). You then said her situation is unique to her. So what are you assuming about her situation that was worse for her that wasn't present in all the single mothers from that time who did not kill their babies?
How can you not see that you comparing her to these thousands of fictional women is you guessing her circumstances? I'm not guessing anything it is a simple fact she as a person is unique and her baby as a person was unique and therefore the events that led to the babies death were therefore unique. Had it been Mary from down the road who had the baby instead then it would have been a different outcome.
That was my point. There is no evidence so they have to just accept what she is telling them.
But you wrote it as if the court has somehow capitulated and believed a 'story' and gave in or something, the point is court prosecutions are based on evidence. There is no evidence she murdered the child but all evidence that she killed him accidentally, therefore there cannot be a prosecution of murder.
All I feel for her is pity. I wonder what would have happened if she had confessed at the time - would she have been treated leniently, given her age and circumstances? I'm not sure that they knew about such things as post natal depression back then either.
Comments
Just maybe she was a stressed to buggery, 15 year old FGS, totally demonised unmarried mother in the 60's and she wasn't capable of thinking the way she should? Is that acceptable to you as it, perfectly understandably, seems to have been to the court.
Depends how you mean 'accept'.
I accept it as a potential reason, I don't accept killing a baby is ok.
Good and no-one is saying it's ok. Now imagine how she's felt for decades, just the same as you. This was her precious baby who she was struggling just to keep for herself and against all the odds, defying the cruel hypocritical condemnation at that time.
Bad enough to confess when she didn't have to. My heart goes out to her.
I agree lets remember it's 1963 and abortion is ilegal. No doubt she was told "you got pregnant you look after the child it's your problem", "Keep that child quiet", "Your a ****". Of course it does not excuse the killing of a child. However you could see how a young girl could become overwhelmed, then in a moment of madness do something unthinkable.
Long lost family on tv is littered with cases of young mums from that era unable to cope. Putting their children up for adoption. There is probably a good chance that would also have happened here but a tragedy happened first. I suspect there were other cases like this back in the day.
I do have some sympathy for her, I just think we have to be careful, I mean there must have been thousands of women at that time, who faced the same odds and didn't kill their babies.
Have you ever heard of post-partum depression?
I've heard of post natal depression.
I don't understand why you are comparing this lady to all these other people, your niece (who is not a mother) and other teenage mums at the time. The circumstances of this were specific to this lady and her family as every baby is different and every family is different.
Having been a teenage mother myself although two years older than this lady I fully understand the stress and pressure she would have been under. There were moments when I thought I just couldn't handle having a baby any more and I didn't know what to do to stop him crying as he had colic. Thankfully I had the support of health professionals who had drummed into me from the beginning if you feel under pressure lay the baby in his cot and leave him until you have calmed down. This girl seeminly didn't have the support of health professionals or her family as to what to do with a screaming baby.
To me it seems like she made a knee jerk reaction without fully thinking through what the consequences would be.
I don't think you have any idea how different it was over 50 years ago, on every count. It was a very tragic accident and your comment is not really helpful, unless all unmarried 15 year old mothers faced exactly the same stresses as she did, had the same level of mental health and coping strategies.
I'm not assuming circumstances, I'm saying having a bad time as a single mum in the 60's is not unique to her, and yet mothers killing their babies is much rarer.
What do you mean, not helpful? It's my opinion on this subject, as with anybody else's. Not sure why you're picking on my post in particular.
I'm not "picking on your post". I'm replying to your post to me.
Well, it was you who replied to me first actually and took exception to my post whilst ignoring people calling her a murderer or whatever was said earlier.
I said I had sympathy for her, but that wasn't good enough for you. At the end of the day, she killed a baby and she shouldn't have.
It seems to me that her word just might be worth something since she came forward and told her story unprompted when she had 'got away' with it for years. She didn't have to speak up and no one would ever have known. Her child has haunted her for years, thst's clear. I hope she can find peace of mind now.
That's exactly what you are doing and she wasn't just a single mum she was a teenage mum with two ill parents and no family support or support from health professionals. Being a teen with two ill parents is hard enough in itself add in a baby who she says cried constantly and you can get a picture of how hard it would have been.
I think this is most definitely one of those cases were you just can't understand the situation unless you've been in similar yourself.
I know that, but I do wonder how her mind would have coped with that guilt for all those years. It's certainly much easier to kid yourself into thinking you didn't mean to kill the child, then perhaps confess because of that continued guilt. People want catharsis and there's a need to share and not bottle it all up, but people obviously don't want people to think they're evil either.
No, that's what you were doing. You were saying she was in a terrible situation and I said other women will have faced the same terrible situation (that being of how single mothers were treated in the past). You then said her situation is unique to her. So what are you assuming about her situation that was worse for her that wasn't present in all the single mothers from that time who did not kill their babies?
The judge seemed to take the specific unusual circumstances of this specific case into account and showed mercy. I'm still wondering why anyone would think that was politcal.
What other evidence (actual evidence) could they use?
There wasnt any other evidence so her word has to be taken.
That was my point. There is no evidence so they have to just accept what she is telling them.
How can you not see that you comparing her to these thousands of fictional women is you guessing her circumstances? I'm not guessing anything it is a simple fact she as a person is unique and her baby as a person was unique and therefore the events that led to the babies death were therefore unique. Had it been Mary from down the road who had the baby instead then it would have been a different outcome.
But you wrote it as if the court has somehow capitulated and believed a 'story' and gave in or something, the point is court prosecutions are based on evidence. There is no evidence she murdered the child but all evidence that she killed him accidentally, therefore there cannot be a prosecution of murder.