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The Big Holby City Thread (Part 4)

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    wiggles247wiggles247 Posts: 48,088
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    Not a bad episode. Even Jonny didn't annoy me as much as usual (although I loved Jac's 'She's a baby, not a parrot' line)! I thought Jac was incredible. She managed to be there for her daughter, and treat a patient at the same time - and I actually really liked Jac's bond with the patient's girlfriend. I don't usually like it when they have patients and relatives who are clearly only there to make the staff realise something about themselves, but on this occasion it worked quite well. I don't understand why people say that Jac doesn't have very good people skills - I think that she has incredible people skills! The way that she persuaded Robbie to have that surgery when Elliot hadn't succeeded in years proved that. She's thoroughly unpatronising - I would completely trust her were I a patient, I think.

    Arthur and Dominic were both pretty bad, but generally I think that Dominic was slightly better. He got rid of the tests that Arthur ordered (which was unacceptable, and if I had been Zosia I would have told Sacha about that) but other than that, I think he generally behaved much more professionally than Arthur. Arthur is possibly the worst medical professional I have ever seen on this show. He can diagnose, but he can't work with people, he can't connect with patients on any level, he lets personal relationships with staff get in the way (previously Chantelle and now Dominic), he's not a team player, and he's so arrogant he always believes his opinions to be right (I recall there was an occasion where he thoroughly ignored what Sharon had instructed about how to level with a patient because he believed the patient to be getting too close to Chantelle, and the results were disastrous.) The only thing that I have seen him be good for is being a diagnostician (albeit an astonishingly good diagnostician). On everything else, I just find him really dreadful, and not a team player at all. Sacha handled him well, I thought.

    not to mention potentially dangerous, highly unethical and downright stupid!!!!!!!!!!


    And, even though I'm a HUGE Jac fan have to say I wouldn't call it 'incredible' that she managed to be there for Emma tonight (eventually) more lucky - after all, if Mr Solis hadn't had that emergency which delayed Emma's op she would have missed her!!! (Which is another big stick Jac'd be able to beat herself up with - sometimes she IS her own worst enemy!!!)
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    Has he? What has he done to deserve it?

    Been a generally decent human being that doesn't go around stabbing their colleagues in the back for over a year at the Hospital.

    Whereas Dominic has a proven track record (proven in Court no less) of lying about colleagues and trying to scupper their professional careers.

    Sorry but I know which one i'd trust if they were saying totally opposite things.

    That doesn't mean Dominic doesn't deserve a second chance, he does but trust once squandered needs to be earnt back, not just demanded and he is a long way off that.

    Digby needed ticking off by Sacha, no doubt about that but I think he was overly harsh. Digby's problem is not that somebody might be better than him (his rivalry with Gemma was very friendly) but that Dominic is an unprofessional, nasty piece of worj that he doesn't want to associate with, at home or work and seeing him be in a position to potentially hurt people as he did Malick is more than he can bare. Hearing Dominic keep saying that 'he is the victim' must be incredibly annoying when Dominic shose to lie on the Stand with the express intent of ruining Malick's career just because he didn't like being dumped.

    Re Jac, I don't think it is that she has a bad bedside manner, I don't think it has ever been portrayed as her not being able to do it. It is more that most of the time she just can't be bothered with the small talk and it is that tendancy to treat her Patients as a body on the table rather than the full person holistic approach that sometimes infuriates the likes of Elliot. Also, perhaps you need to be a particular type of person for Jac to 'get' you and see the bigger picture - like the girl from the Children's home last week. This has been true of Jac ever since her first episode - she can turn on the charm and empathy when she needs to but generally doesn't bother. There are some Patients that she really will go several extra miles for and they tend to be the prickly, out of the norm ones that most of the other characters don't like. There is a brilliant episode in Season 9 called 'Borders of Sleep' which demonstrates this very well for early Jac.
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    george.millmangeorge.millman Posts: 8,628
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    wiggles247 wrote: »
    not to mention potentially dangerous, highly unethical and downright stupid!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes, I agree. Zosia should have reported it.

    wiggles247 wrote: »
    And, even though I'm a HUGE Jac fan have to say I wouldn't call it 'incredible' that she managed to be there for Emma tonight (eventually) more lucky - after all, if Mr Solis hadn't had that emergency which delayed Emma's op she would have missed her!!!(Which is another big stick Jac'd be able to beat herself up with - sometimes she IS her own worst enemy!!!)

    Yes, but I felt that by the end, she went down late less because she was scared of being there, and more because she didn't want to let her patients down. I felt that if she could have turned back time, she would have not started planning to be in theatre in the first place, but by that point she had already said that she'd be there, she'd already been involved in them changing their plans and she didn't want to mess things up for them - which is fair enough.
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    shya100shya100 Posts: 1,797
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    Yes, I agree. Zosia should have reported it.




    Yes, but I felt that by the end, she went down late less because she was scared of being there, and more because she didn't want to let her patients down. I felt that if she could have turned back time, she would have not started planning to be in theatre in the first place, but by that point she had already said that she'd be there, she'd already been involved in them changing their plans and she didn't want to mess things up for them - which is fair enough.

    It isn't that she has bad people skills, there is nothing wrong I would argue with her social skills, it is that she has attachment and emotional issues. Common in her situation I would argue. Anyway, how long is it before Jac, Jonny and Emma move in together. Neither one is going to want to be a weekend parent, and in reality a baby that young should have one stable base.
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    wiggles247wiggles247 Posts: 48,088
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    All she needs to do now is walk on water [without falling and ending up with a walking stick like the last time] and she'd be in line for a Damehood.

    Oh Dante I do miss you when you don't post (where were you after last week's episode??)

    But, must admit you have confused me somewhat (although that doesn't take much :)) cos I thought Jac's walking stick was the result of an argument involving a tractor (or some sort of slow movng vehicle), a blind bend and an oncoming car (and how didn't she get prosecuted for dangerous or [at the very least] careless driving for that???). As well as her burning desire to tell Joseph that all wasn't as it seemed with Faye, obviously!!!
    Or, did I miss her trying to perform a miracle that didn't have a surgical basis (because obviously she does that most days)?
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    shya100 wrote: »
    It isn't that she has bad people skills, there is nothing wrong I would argue with her social skills, it is that she has attachment and emotional issues. Common in her situation I would argue. Anyway, how long is it before Jac, Jonny and Emma move in together. Neither one is going to want to be a weekend parent, and in reality a baby that young should have one stable base.

    Can't see Bonnie going for that somehow. Or jac putting up with Bonnie being a frequent visitor to their home if Jonny did move in.

    It would make sense if they were both single, and indeed it is what I thought would happen and they agreed to but Jonny getting involved with someone, especially someone who so obviously doesn't like Jac and Jac doesn't like back totally scuppered that.

    Also, long term you could argue it is better for Emma to have 2 different peaceful homes than one where the parents constantly snipe at each other.
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    george.millmangeorge.millman Posts: 8,628
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    kitkat1971 wrote: »
    Been a generally decent human being that doesn't go around stabbing their colleagues in the back for over a year at the Hospital.

    Whereas Dominic has a proven track record (proven in Court no less) of lying about colleagues and trying to scupper their professional careers.

    Sorry but I know which one i'd trust if they were saying totally opposite things.

    That doesn't mean Dominic doesn't deserve a second chance, he does but trust once squandered needs to be earnt back, not just demanded and he is a long way off that.

    Digby needed ticking off by Sacha, no doubt about that but I think he was overly harsh. Digby's problem is not that somebody might be better than him (his rivalry with Gemma was very friendly) but that Dominic is an unprofessional, nasty piece of worj that he doesn't want to associate with, at home or work and seeing him be in a position to potentially hurt people as he did Malick is more than he can bare. Hearing Dominic keep saying that 'he is the victim' must be incredibly annoying when Dominic shose to lie on the Stand with the express intent of ruining Malick's career just because he didn't like being dumped.

    Trust does need to be earned back. I'm not defending what Dominic has done in the past in any way whatsoever, nor am I defending him throwing out Arthur's test results (stupid and dangerous), but this in no way excuses Arthur's attitude. Arthur behaves in a way that is fully intended to prevent a working relationship with Dominic - when you're at work, that is just not acceptable! If Arthur feels that working with Dominic isn't good for him, he could ask to be put on a different ward and if that doesn't work, just try to avoid him as much as possible and make a political decision to be courteous and professional for the sake of getting on with the job. However, he doesn't try to do that. His manner is intended to come across as aggressive. I know that Dominic isn't an angel himself, but firstly he has shown himself to be marginally more adept at treating patients than Arthur, secondly Arthur is supposed to be senior to Dominic so it's even worse for him than for Dominic, and thirdly Arthur has had issues like this before. When Chantelle was there, he put his personal attraction to her over and above his priorities at work, and people suffered as a result.

    I'm trying to be as fair as I can. I know that Arthur is well-intentioned - as I have said, he is exceptional at diagnosing - but other than that, I don't think he's an especially good doctor, and his attitude is just appalling. And also, one thing that Dominic has over him is that even though Dominic lied in court (not only unprofessional but illegal) he has been assessed by a professional body, which found him capable of coming back to work. If Arthur's behaviour since he joined was assessed in that way, would the same be true for him?
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    Dante AmecheDante Ameche Posts: 20,694
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    wiggles247 wrote: »
    Oh Dante I do miss you when you don't post (where were you after last week's episode??)

    But, must admit you have confused me somewhat (although that doesn't take much :)) cos I thought Jac's walking stick was the result of an argument involving a tractor (or some sort of slow movng vehicle), a blind bend and an oncoming car (and how didn't she get prosecuted for dangerous or [at the very least] careless driving for that???). As well as her burning desire to tell Joseph that all wasn't as it seemed with Faye, obviously!!!
    Or, did I miss her trying to perform a miracle that didn't have a surgical basis (because obviously she does that most days)?
    I must be confusing it with an episode where she slipped on some liquid on the ward. I remember after laughing for a long time rewinding and watching the fall quite a few times before watching the rest of the episode.
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    shya100shya100 Posts: 1,797
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    kitkat1971 wrote: »
    Can't see Bonnie going for that somehow. Or jac putting up with Bonnie being a frequent visitor to their home if Jonny did move in.

    It would make sense if they were both single, and indeed it is what I thought would happen and they agreed to but Jonny getting involved with someone, especially someone who so obviously doesn't like Jac and Jac doesn't like back totally scuppered that.

    Also, long term you could argue it is better for Emma to have 2 different peaceful homes than one where the parents constantly snipe at each other.

    Bonnie won't last... and neither will the snipping I warrant. Well for the moment Emma is a vulnerable baby with health issue... unusual circumstances and can somehow see them agreeing on this, at least for a while.
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    wiggles247wiggles247 Posts: 48,088
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    I must be confusing it with an episode where she slipped on some liquid on the ward. I remember after laughing for a long time rewinding and watching the fall quite a few times before watching the rest of the episode.

    Oh, that was the orange juice with the young farmers, and resulted in a head wound and a brief reconciliation with Jonny - fab episode (the camera panning backwards DOWN 'the ascent of man' and then showing the aforementioned young farmers behaving like totally twonks being a particular highlight of mine), and I do remember you commenting on the fall now. And Rosie did do it brilliantly!
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    You see, I don't think that Dominic is acting more professionally, I think that he is doing a better job of keeping his sniping and trouble making secret as befits his duplicitous nature. In some ways, it show Digby to be the nicer person that he is not capable of putting on the front that Dominic does and working undercover with dirty tactics to win.

    He hasn't been assessed professionally in that way - it is not as though they have had him under supervision on the Wards. They just reviewed what happened at the hearing and decided his punishment should be to repeat a year. All F1s and F2s are monitored at work - they are still training. If any of them are obviously out of line or incompetent their seniors will pull them up on it (as Sacha did today) and if it is bad enough they can be suspended (as Zosia was last month) or even failed for that segment (as Penny was in 09) so that argument is void. Digby's seniors not only think he is competent but exceptional as we saw with Malick and Hansenn. And there have been quite a few patients he has connected with and treated in ways other than just diagnostics - pen lady in Zosia's first episode for one.

    I agree that Digby needs to get over it for everyone's sake but I can really understand how he feels after all the trouble Dom caused - especially if he suspects (rightly from the 'cutting off the hand' comment and his destroying the test results) that Dominic hasn't changed and will hurt Patients and his colleagues.

    As for changing ward, he might not be allowed to at this point in his training (though it is odd he has always been on Kellar) and maybe he doesn't see why he should have to be the one to leave and have his life disrupted when he is the innocent party?
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    wiggles247 wrote: »
    Oh, that was the orange juice with the young farmers, and resulted in a head wound and a brief reconciliation with Jonny - fab episode (the camera panning backwards DOWN 'the ascent of man' and then showing the aforementioned young farmers behaving like totally twonks being a particular highlight of mine), and I do remember you commenting on the fall now. And Rosie did do it brilliantly!

    That orange juice pratfall was a masterpiece of comic timing. Even I, who loves Jac, rewound it several times to enjoy.
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    BLADESMAN1889BLADESMAN1889 Posts: 657
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    I just can't be doing with 'mincer's' - gay is one thing but behaving like female man is just the saddest form of attention seeking.
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    towerstowers Posts: 12,183
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    kitkat1971 wrote: »
    Can't see Bonnie going for that somehow. Or jac putting up with Bonnie being a frequent visitor to their home if Jonny did move in.

    It would make sense if they were both single, and indeed it is what I thought would happen and they agreed to but Jonny getting involved with someone, especially someone who so obviously doesn't like Jac and Jac doesn't like back totally scuppered that.

    Also, long term you could argue it is better for Emma to have 2 different peaceful homes than one where the parents constantly snipe at each other.

    Regarding older children yes but babies really need a routine and one secure environment, especially if they have disabilities or added complications. Some disabled children have to have medical equipment near them at home and could never 'to and fro' from one house to another on a weekly basis. The parents really have to put the child first.
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    towers wrote: »
    Regarding older children yes but babies really need a routine and one secure environment, especially if they have disabilities or added complications. Some disabled children have to have medical equipment near them at home and could never 'to and fro' from one house to another on a weekly basis. The parents really have to put the child first.

    True but I was thinking long term and there is a theory that even babies can pick up on the negativity surrounding them. In Emma's case, I don't think there will be a lot of medical equipment at home.

    Believe me there is nothing I'd like more than a reconciliation between Jac and Jonny, even if only as friends and parents but I really don't see it happening anytime soon. I personally think that Bonnie isn't going anywhere for a while - just a gut feeling.
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    wiggles247wiggles247 Posts: 48,088
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    Yes, but I felt that by the end, she went down late less because she was scared of being there, and more because she didn't want to let her patients down. I felt that if she could have turned back time, she would have not started planning to be in theatre in the first place, but by that point she had already said that she'd be there, she'd already been involved in them changing their plans and she didn't want to mess things up for them - which is fair enough.

    There's dedication and then there's getting your priorities wrong and, for me, Jac was definitely in the second camp last night.

    kitkat1971 wrote: »
    True but I was thinking long term and there is a theory that even babies can pick up on the negativity surrounding them. In Emma's case, I don't think there will be a lot of medical equipment at home.

    Believe me there is nothing I'd like more than a reconciliation between Jac and Jonny, even if only as friends and parents but I really don't see it happening anytime soon. I personally think that Bonnie isn't going anywhere for a while - just a gut feeling.

    I also think Bonnie will be around for a bit but do hope that Jac/Jonny will be able to get things back to how they were at the beginning of the pregnancy - that nice, jokey but supportive relationship they seemed to have (before Jonny kept being switched with his very un-Jonnyish identical twin).
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    cloverclover Posts: 2,008
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    I'm definitely Team Digby in the Dig v Dom debate, but that's because I love Digby. I'm not sure how I feel about Sacha's current role on Keller, though. I liked him better on AAU, but I don't suppose he'll be going back there soon as another New Boy is arriving next week.

    And I'm always and will forever be on Team Jac. Episode review here
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    wiggles247wiggles247 Posts: 48,088
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    clover wrote: »
    I'm definitely Team Digby in the Dig v Dom debate, but that's because I love Digby. I'm not sure how I feel about Sacha's current role on Keller, though. I liked him better on AAU, but I don't suppose he'll be going back there soon as another New Boy is arriving next week.

    And I'm always and will forever be on Team Jac. Episode review here

    Me too clover, me too! And great review, as ever.


    towers wrote: »
    Regarding older children yes but babies really need a routine and one secure environment, especially if they have disabilities or added complications. Some disabled children have to have medical equipment near them at home and could never 'to and fro' from one house to another on a weekly basis. The parents really have to put the child first.

    I'm not sure, with babies, that it's the physical environment they're in that matters really. It's the people who they're with that provide the secure base by responding to their needs appropriately. I don't think babies actually have much conscious awareness of where they are for the first few months and as long as both Jac and Jonny's homes are places where their needs are met then they'll learn to associate them both with safety/security so will be fine whichever of them they're at. And, on an unconscious level think it would definitely be better for Emma to live in two homes that were reasonably harmonious than one where there was lots of discord, because babies do pick up on the atmosphere around them.
    Hope this makes sense???
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    george.millmangeorge.millman Posts: 8,628
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    I just can't be doing with 'mincer's' - gay is one thing but behaving like female man is just the saddest form of attention seeking.

    I don't think it's attention-seeking - it comes as naturally to some men as it does to some women.
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    wiggles247wiggles247 Posts: 48,088
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    clover
    I'm definitely Team Digby in the Dig v Dom debate, but that's because I love Digby. I'm not sure how I feel about Sacha's current role on Keller, though. I liked him better on AAU, but I don't suppose he'll be going back there soon as another New Boy is arriving next week.

    I think we're meant to assume now, with Dominic's apology and, their working tgether to make that diagnosis and that little scene at Digby's flat towards the end of the episode, that a line has been drawn under the whole Digby vs Dom thing (although I was also firmly in Digby's camp). And actually think Sacha should shoulder some of the blame for the whole mess anyway, particularly Digby's outburst (which I'd agree was highly unprofessional). He was so vague as to be almost opaque when he was talking to Digby that first time, and should have said that it was the patient who'd complained. Although, for the life of me, I can't see what she had to complain about at that point, as I didn't see anything wrong with what Digby said/did before she did - but possibly I missed something??
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    BLADESMAN1889BLADESMAN1889 Posts: 657
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    I don't think it's attention-seeking - it comes as naturally to some men as it does to some women.

    I couldn't possibly know if it comes naturally or not but, even if it did 'feel' natural to a man it isn't - & really should be kept behind closed doors.
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    I couldn't possibly know if it comes naturally or not but, even if it did 'feel' natural to a man it isn't - & really should be kept behind closed doors.

    It maybe isn't myy place to say but I think you are treading on thin ice here as that post sounded like you were saying that homosexuality or being camp is unnatural or a lifestyle choice (and one that should be kept hidden implying it is shameful) and many would argue that it is quite the reverse.
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    myssmyss Posts: 16,528
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    Not a bad episode. Even Jonny didn't annoy me as much as usual (although I loved Jac's 'She's a baby, not a parrot' line)! I thought Jac was incredible. She managed to be there for her daughter, and treat a patient at the same time - and I actually really liked Jac's bond with the patient's girlfriend. I don't usually like it when they have patients and relatives who are clearly only there to make the staff realise something about themselves, but on this occasion it worked quite well. I don't understand why people say that Jac doesn't have very good people skills - I think that she has incredible people skills! The way that she persuaded Robbie to have that surgery when Elliot hadn't succeeded in years proved that. She's thoroughly unpatronising - I would completely trust her were I a patient, I think.

    Arthur and Dominic were both pretty bad, but generally I think that Dominic was slightly better. He got rid of the tests that Arthur ordered (which was unacceptable, and if I had been Zosia I would have told Sacha about that) but other than that, I think he generally behaved much more professionally than Arthur. Arthur is possibly the worst medical professional I have ever seen on this show. He can diagnose, but he can't work with people, he can't connect with patients on any level, he lets personal relationships with staff get in the way (previously Chantelle and now Dominic), he's not a team player, and he's so arrogant he always believes his opinions to be right (I recall there was an occasion where he thoroughly ignored what Sharon had instructed about how to level with a patient because he believed the patient to be getting too close to Chantelle, and the results were disastrous.) The only thing that I have seen him be good for is being a diagnostician (albeit an astonishingly good diagnostician). On everything else, I just find him really dreadful, and not a team player at all. Sacha handled him well, I thought.
    Pretty much agree with your post, although the patient's girlfriend came over to me as part desperate, part stalker-ish to Jac. No wonder Jac had to do that rolled eyes/exasperated breath look a few times in her company.
    As for Digby v Dominic, as much as I am not yet convinced that Dominic isn't up to something, Digby has an annoying habit of obviously not making himself look good in other people's eyes and unfairly comes across as the fool instead. I had a colleague do more or less the same approach to me (not in hospital, but when I used to work in retail) and in the end, not only did he look stupid but he had picked the wrong person to blame anyway! I hope now Digby is doing a sly one himself in seemingly accepting Dominic but keeping an eye on him at the same time.

    A decent episode I thought. ;-)
    I must be confusing it with an episode where she slipped on some liquid on the ward. I remember after laughing for a long time rewinding and watching the fall quite a few times before watching the rest of the episode.
    :D:D:D
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 181
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    Dominic is still awful.

    They'd plunged him in too fast as a ridiculous 'baddie' and now they've redeemed him in double quick time too. What on earth are they playing at?

    Plus he can't act.
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    kitkat1971kitkat1971 Posts: 39,257
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    Dominic is still awful.

    They'd plunged him in too fast as a ridiculous 'baddie' and now they've redeemed him in double quick time too. What on earth are they playing at?

    Plus he can't act.

    I very much doubt he is truly redeemed. In fact, I suspect it will turn out he is specifically targeting Digby as it was his testimony at the Coroner's Inquest which lead to Malick's name being cleared and Dominic being branded a liar, investigated and having to repeat a year. If I were Dominic I'd bear a gruudge and Dominic seems like the type of person that would want revenge.
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