The 5 second call had significant consequences which you continue to ignore. Anything that the press did or hospital management did was as a direct result of that 5 second call. Without the call there is nothing for the press to report or any reason fo the hospital to act. All the events are interlinked and either all parties are partially responsible or none are responsible but you cannot exonerate one and condemn the others.
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "caused an ordeal" rather than "put her through an ordeal" ..
Actually she felt not too dissimilar after giving birth to our son as she was high on morphine and I certainly didn't anything like that! She's fine now. I was very helpful to her and that's because I had the opportunity
This woman's husband however, did not!
I don't appreciate the way you express yourself. You may not realise how rude you appear but it is possible to express your opinion without resorting to rudeness - others manage to.
If you felt that you were so sympathetic to your wife then why is it so difficult for you to have any sympathy for this poor woman who found herself in her predicament by just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and by putting through a call, that she judged as genuine, in the early hours of the morning following a night shift where she had probably many other management and clinical distractions warranting her attention. I still don't understand why a receptionist was not on duty - I certainly would never have had time to act as a telephonist during my shifts in charge of hospitals at night.
As for confiding in her husband, well, from my own experience when I went through a difficult, stressful period at work a few years ago (which was so bad that I ended up changing my job but, in my case, I received a lot of management recognition and support), I never ever discussed the matter with my loved ones. I am seen as the strong, practical, in-control member of my family and did not want to come across as weak. I also didn't want to burden them with my problems. An ex colleague was sacked from her position a couple of years ago, following a drug incident, she has never told her family although she enjoys a close and loving relationship with them.
Maybe it's because we are nurses who are seen as strong, steadfast and totally reliable but it is much easier to confide in somebody neutral than to close family members when things get difficult at work. In addition, it is obvious from reading some of the posts here that many people outside of our hospital 'bubble' have absolutely no appreciation or understanding of the stresses and demands of hospital culture - so nurses just don't bother discussing issues with lay people, even if they're family, because they just can't empathise or fully understand what they're going through.
It's probably a lot easier to say this when you've never nursed the Queen's daughter in law and had to deal with an impromptu call from " The Queen " in the middle of the night .
It has never been reported that this nurse actually looked after Kate. She just transferred the call to the ward that Kate was on. Not every nurse in a clinic/hospital has nursed every patient! It is ridiculous. For all we know, she never even met Kate. I still find the reaction of the nurse completely over the top. I feel very sad indeed for her husband and children but quite honestly, she sounds very unstable. To kill yourself because you transferred a call, talked on the phone for a matter of seconds, is ridiculous. I can understand feeling a bit of an idiot to fall for the prank but to go as far as suicide indicates to me that this lady was very unstable indeed. Her family must be beyond shattered and she must have known how it would affect her family both here and in India, if she ended her life. I still wonder how much the hospital should share the blame for this tragic situation, what exactly was said to Jacintha, by whom, etc.
But as one "charming" poster pointed out to me recently. Who cares what I think!!!!!!!!!!! Funny that, I thought this was an open forum where you could discuss views and opinions!! Silly me!
I don't appreciate the way you express yourself. You may not realise how rude you appear but it is possible to express your opinion without resorting to rudeness - others manage to.
I don't like what you said to me earlier. Does that bother you? No, I didn't think so. If it is possible to express yourself without being rude, why don't others do it, you included?
If you felt that you were so sympathetic to your wife then why is it so difficult for you to have any sympathy for this poor woman who found herself in her predicament by just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and by putting through a call, that she judged as genuine, in the early hours of the morning following a night shift where she had probably many other management and clinical distractions warranting her attention. I still don't understand why a receptionist was not on duty - I certainly would never have had time to act as a telephonist during my shifts in charge of hospitals at night.
I'll tell you, because my wife gave me a chance to help. In doing so, nobody suffered. I don't think you read my comments properly because my gripe is she left a husband and children behind over a silly mistake anyone could have made, through no fault of their own.
Being selfish means basically thinking of yourself or taking action to help yourself and ignoring others. Suicide ALWAYS helps the person wanting to die but always leaves the survivors devastated to say the least. How is that not selfish?
As for confiding in her husband, well, from my own experience when I went through a difficult, stressful period at work a few years ago (which was so bad that I ended up changing my job but, in my case, I received a lot of management recognition and support), I never ever discussed the matter with my loved ones. I am seen as the strong, practical, in-control member of my family and did not want to come across as weak. I also didn't want to burden them with my problems. An ex colleague was sacked from her position a couple of years ago, following a drug incident, she has never told her family although she enjoys a close and loving relationship with them.
When the stuff is about to hit the fan, sometimes you need to and it often makes your loves ones angry that you did not tell them before!
Maybe it's because we are nurses who are seen as strong, steadfast and totally reliable but it is much easier to confide in somebody neutral than to close family members when things get difficult at work. In addition, it is obvious from reading some of the posts here that many people outside of our hospital 'bubble' have absolutely no appreciation or understanding of the stresses and demands of hospital culture - so nurses just don't bother discussing issues with lay people, even if they're family, because they just can't empathise or fully understand what they're going through.
No-one is that strong that they do not need others. They may think they are but they really are not. This applies to nurses because they are people too.
I don't like what you said to me earlier. Does that bother you? No, I didn't think so. If it is possible to express yourself without being rude, why don't others do it, you included?
I'll tell you, because my wife gave me a chance to help. In doing so, nobody suffered. I don't think you read my comments properly because my gripe is she left a husband and children behind over a silly mistake anyone could have made, through no fault of their own.
Being selfish means basically thinking of yourself or taking action to help yourself and ignoring others. Suicide ALWAYS helps the person wanting to die but always leaves the survivors devastated to say the least. How is that not selfish?
When the stuff is about to hit the fan, sometimes you need to and it often makes your loves ones angry that you did not tell them before!
No-one is that strong that they do not need others. They may think they are but they really are not. This applies to nurses because they are people too.
I do not use the language you use in your posts. Lots of us don't like what others are saying but we can remain polite. Bad language bothers me and there is no need for it really, particularly on an internet forum where there is no accompanying tone or body language to lessen the impact of the word.
You are lucky that you have the mentality to confide in your loved ones and you have a nice, uncomplicated view of the world. Some people are not like that, women in general are more complex than men, seem to worry more about what you would call 'trivia' and suffer more mental health problems.
I don't work in mental health though I do have some experience and my brother is a psychiatrist. People with mental health problems or even those with sudden suicidal ideas after a traumatic experience don't view the world in the same simplistic straightforward way you do. To people left behind and to people like you, suicide can be perceived as a selfish act and there is terrible guilt that warning signs weren't noticed or that the person didn't confide in anyone but the act is so desperate and final that one can only imagine the terrible hopelessness and helplessness endured by the suicide victim before committing the act.
I was under the care of the OH dept during my period of stress and depression and the doctor regularly used to question me on whether I ever had any suicidal thoughts. When I said that I did but thoughts of how my family would feel always deterred me she said that I was not therefore a risk because people genuinely committed to suicide just don't think of their families.
I agree that nurses are not so strong that they don't need others but I sought/ was offered the help of professionals such as doctors and counsellors rather than burdening my problems on family and causing them anxiety. Well, my brother probably would have understood and he was equipped to help me but it is very common for stressed and depressed people not to confide in loved ones.
I hope your life continues to be simple and uncomplicated.
I can't believe people are judging a woman took her own life.
This sums it up for me... I was going to reply to some of the judgemental, cruel and downright nasty things posted on here but ... you sum things up perfectly Ashbourne. All those who are judging this woman and calling her selfish and worse, should be ashamed of theirselves. Time for this thread to be deleted now, I think - before any of her family or friends can read the disgusting things being said about her.
That's it though. Leaving a child motherless on purpose is disgusting to be blunt, regardless of the situation. Children need to come first.
Many women say they have felt down, but their children kept them going! They carried on for their children's sake, why couldn't this woman have done the same?
Speaking from my own personal experience... My son was my saviour..without him I might of chose the same as the nurse.. The thought of leaving him pulled me through a very very tough time and it was a lot worse than answering a phone call and talking for 5 seconds
This sums it up for me... I was going to reply to some of the judgemental, cruel and downright nasty things posted on here but ... you sum things up perfectly Ashbourne. All those who are judging this woman and calling her selfish and worse, should be ashamed of theirselves. Time for this thread to be deleted now, I think - before any of her family or friends can read the disgusting things being said about her.
Speaking from my own personal experience... My son was my saviour..without him I might of chose the same as the nurse.. The thought of leaving him pulled me through a very very tough time and it was a lot worse than answering a phone call and talking for 5 seconds
Yes I agree Yootha.
Betty, you are judging a fraught woman from your own experience. You have no idea how much her mind was fooked.
It's not a competition. I have been suicidal and my children made me change my mind. But there for the grave of God...
Simple really - you claimed she was "put through an ordeal". As far as I feel, a 5 second interaction consisting of "hello?, yes i'll put you through" hardly constitutes an "ordeal" does it ?.
Many have said, which I tend to agree with, that the actions of the hospital management and the media are much more to blame for driving her to do what she did.
All of which could very well have not been taken by her ..
That's what I still don't understand about her. People keep quoting about her culture. So does her culture never allow her to get into trouble for anything? Did they have to treat her with kid gloves all the time in case she flipped every time she got told off?
There's millions of Indians in this country. A lot of them possibly have the same values as her. How many have killed themselves when they've been in trouble for something? there was definitely something else the matter with her.
She put the call through, she was the senior nurse on duty, so she made a mistake. The general public may have felt her role was insignificant and that, as she was not named, she was not humiliated, but she would have felt humiliated within her working environment which matters to many people. The hospital is very small and everyone knows everyone, she would have felt responsible for the whole fiasco and she knew that there would be many staff who would have blamed her too.
She was a senior nurse?? :eek: If they promoted her, how bad were the others that arent senior?
As said numerous times before there must have been something going on there behind the scenes that hasn't, or will never be, made public. Only guessing, but I think she was on some sort of warning about her work and unlucky for her, but lucky for the hospital, this all blew up and they could have got rid of her. It also doesn't help having other staff not liking you & possibly not taking any notice of you when giving orders & them possibly being jealous of her as she was promoted and they weren't. But it all became public because of what she did and the hospital is desperately trying to cover themselves now and making themselves the goody goodys. Was it them that arranged the service in Westminster Cathedral to show how caring they were about her?
Senior nurse may simply mean a band 5 nurse with greater than 3 years experience. Same grade as her colleagues. It does not necessarily mean anyone has been promoted over anyone else.
Senior nurse may simply mean a band 5 nurse with greater than 3 years experience. Same grade as her colleagues. It does not necessarily mean anyone has been promoted over anyone else.
The private sector don't apply NHS grades to nursing staff.
At the age of 46 and with many years of experience behind her I am sure she was competent, I have only read good things about her nursing practice and the management have given a glowing account of her diligence and dedication.
I don't know where the other poster got the idea that other staff didn't like her I can believe other staff gave her a hard time for her mistake but nurses tend to do that when nurses make mistakes, regardless of whether they like them or not
It is very harsh for some other posters here to make a judgement on her nursing ability based on the fact she made a mistake with one phone call, at a time when most people are in bed but she had been up working all night. She should not have been placed in the position of receiving such phone calls so I don't believe she was totally responsible for the mistake. She was not going to be disciplined, the hospital cannot lie, they must take some of the blame for not employing a proper receptionist.
It can be a bit like talking to a brick wall on this forum.
The private sector don't apply NHS grades to nursing staff.
At the age of 46 and with many years of experience behind her I am sure she was competent, I have only read good things about her nursing practice and the management have given a glowing account of her diligence and dedication.
It is very harsh for some other posters here to make a judgement on her nursing ability based on the fact she made a mistake with one phone call, at a time when most people are in bed but she had been up working all night. She should not have been placed in the position of receiving such phone calls so I don't believe she was totally responsible for the mistake. She was not going to be disciplined, the hospital cannot lie, they must take some of the blame for not employing a proper receptionist.
I sort of thought private hospitals would have similar if not the same way of grading. The nursing home I worked in prior to my training used the old SRN, EN type of gradings, this was over a decade ago though. It makes sense that things are different in the private sector.
I imagine if the hospital was cutting costs by not employing a receptionist at night. I wonder how many nocturnal calls they normally get?
I concur that to judge her practice on one incident is harsh. Excessively so. I do not understand the level of judgement being passed on this poor woman. Even in death people are criticising her. A real shame in my opinion.
I'm of the opinion that something else was going on her life which hasn't been reported and which led her to take this awful decision to end her life. No doubt she was very upset, humiliated and stressed. I fully believe that she may have feared losing her job.
Why was she living in nurses accommodation? Was she separated from her husband and family? We may never find out the full reasons behind her decision now though.
I'm of the opinion that something else was going on her life which hasn't been reported and which led her to take this awful decision to end her life. No doubt she was very upset, humiliated and stressed. I fully believe that she may have feared losing her job.
Why was she living in nurses accommodation? Was she separated from her husband and family? We may never find out the full reasons behind her decision now though.
The latter is fairly straightforward, her family home was in Bristol. Presumably her husband worked there and her kids went to school there. Bristol to London is one hell of a commute!
I sort of thought private hospitals would have similar if not the same way of grading. The nursing home I worked in prior to my training used the old SRN, EN type of gradings, this was over a decade ago though. It makes sense that things are different in the private sector.
I imagine if the hospital was cutting costs by not employing a receptionist at night. I wonder how many nocturnal calls they normally get?
I concur that to judge her practice on one incident is harsh. Excessively so. I do not understand the level of judgement being passed on this poor woman. Even in death people are criticising her. A real shame in my opinion.
Private hospitals usually entice NHS nurses with the promise of a better salary but they start off at a rate that looks higher on paper but just equates to Band 5 inclusive of enhancements that we in the NHS receive for working weekends and nights. After the first year or so, the salary is negotiated between the employer and employee and is dependant on performance. There could be 5 nurses working together on a private ward, all doing the same job on completely different salaries - but no one would know anybody else's salary, unlike in the NHS.
Private wards within the NHS are different, the staff are still NHS staff on NHS bandings. I don't really know too much about private nursing homes, my friend works in one and I know she is earning band 6 equivalent but I must ask her if they apply the yearly banding increments.
To be honest, in response to the other poster, I have never experienced jealousy or resentment from nurses not happy about being bypassed for promotion. It doesn't work like that. Nurses need to apply and be shortlisted and interviewed for senior positions, the ambitious type will obviously seek opportunities for promotion (nothing wrong with that, I was like that ) but the opportunities are there for all nurses. Equal opportunities - and all that.
Private hospitals usually entice NHS nurses with the promise of a better salary but they start off at a rate that looks higher on paper but just equates to Band 5 inclusive of enhancements that we in the NHS receive for working weekends and nights. After the first year or so, the salary is negotiated between the employer and employee and is dependant on performance. There could be 5 nurses working together on a private ward, all doing the same job on completely different salaries - but no one would know anybody else's salary, unlike in the NHS. Private wards within the NHS are different, the staff are still NHS staff on NHS bandings.
To be honest, in response to the other poster, I have never experienced jealousy or resentment from nurses not happy about being bypassed for promotion. It doesn't work like that. Nurses need to apply and be shortlisted and interviewed for senior positions, the ambitious type will obviously seek opportunities for promotion (nothing wrong with that, I was like that ) but the opportunities are there for all nurses. Equal opportunities and all that.
Thanks. Never fancied private sector or military so haven't looked into it. My hospital has no private patients whatsoever. I am not ambitious. I am happy as top increment band 5. I like my day to day patient work. I see the nonsense my band 6 & 7's have to do and it puts me off. I also have never seen jealousy about any promotions.
Comments
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "caused an ordeal" rather than "put her through an ordeal" ..
I don't appreciate the way you express yourself. You may not realise how rude you appear but it is possible to express your opinion without resorting to rudeness - others manage to.
If you felt that you were so sympathetic to your wife then why is it so difficult for you to have any sympathy for this poor woman who found herself in her predicament by just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and by putting through a call, that she judged as genuine, in the early hours of the morning following a night shift where she had probably many other management and clinical distractions warranting her attention. I still don't understand why a receptionist was not on duty - I certainly would never have had time to act as a telephonist during my shifts in charge of hospitals at night.
As for confiding in her husband, well, from my own experience when I went through a difficult, stressful period at work a few years ago (which was so bad that I ended up changing my job but, in my case, I received a lot of management recognition and support), I never ever discussed the matter with my loved ones. I am seen as the strong, practical, in-control member of my family and did not want to come across as weak. I also didn't want to burden them with my problems. An ex colleague was sacked from her position a couple of years ago, following a drug incident, she has never told her family although she enjoys a close and loving relationship with them.
Maybe it's because we are nurses who are seen as strong, steadfast and totally reliable but it is much easier to confide in somebody neutral than to close family members when things get difficult at work. In addition, it is obvious from reading some of the posts here that many people outside of our hospital 'bubble' have absolutely no appreciation or understanding of the stresses and demands of hospital culture - so nurses just don't bother discussing issues with lay people, even if they're family, because they just can't empathise or fully understand what they're going through.
It has never been reported that this nurse actually looked after Kate. She just transferred the call to the ward that Kate was on. Not every nurse in a clinic/hospital has nursed every patient! It is ridiculous. For all we know, she never even met Kate. I still find the reaction of the nurse completely over the top. I feel very sad indeed for her husband and children but quite honestly, she sounds very unstable. To kill yourself because you transferred a call, talked on the phone for a matter of seconds, is ridiculous. I can understand feeling a bit of an idiot to fall for the prank but to go as far as suicide indicates to me that this lady was very unstable indeed. Her family must be beyond shattered and she must have known how it would affect her family both here and in India, if she ended her life. I still wonder how much the hospital should share the blame for this tragic situation, what exactly was said to Jacintha, by whom, etc.
But as one "charming" poster pointed out to me recently. Who cares what I think!!!!!!!!!!! Funny that, I thought this was an open forum where you could discuss views and opinions!! Silly me!
I don't like what you said to me earlier. Does that bother you? No, I didn't think so. If it is possible to express yourself without being rude, why don't others do it, you included?
I'll tell you, because my wife gave me a chance to help. In doing so, nobody suffered. I don't think you read my comments properly because my gripe is she left a husband and children behind over a silly mistake anyone could have made, through no fault of their own.
Being selfish means basically thinking of yourself or taking action to help yourself and ignoring others. Suicide ALWAYS helps the person wanting to die but always leaves the survivors devastated to say the least. How is that not selfish?
When the stuff is about to hit the fan, sometimes you need to and it often makes your loves ones angry that you did not tell them before!
No-one is that strong that they do not need others. They may think they are but they really are not. This applies to nurses because they are people too.
Agreed. I actually feel sorry for the DJs... They're getting the blame but she hung herself knowing she had two children to cope with the grief...
I do not use the language you use in your posts. Lots of us don't like what others are saying but we can remain polite. Bad language bothers me and there is no need for it really, particularly on an internet forum where there is no accompanying tone or body language to lessen the impact of the word.
You are lucky that you have the mentality to confide in your loved ones and you have a nice, uncomplicated view of the world. Some people are not like that, women in general are more complex than men, seem to worry more about what you would call 'trivia' and suffer more mental health problems.
I don't work in mental health though I do have some experience and my brother is a psychiatrist. People with mental health problems or even those with sudden suicidal ideas after a traumatic experience don't view the world in the same simplistic straightforward way you do. To people left behind and to people like you, suicide can be perceived as a selfish act and there is terrible guilt that warning signs weren't noticed or that the person didn't confide in anyone but the act is so desperate and final that one can only imagine the terrible hopelessness and helplessness endured by the suicide victim before committing the act.
I was under the care of the OH dept during my period of stress and depression and the doctor regularly used to question me on whether I ever had any suicidal thoughts. When I said that I did but thoughts of how my family would feel always deterred me she said that I was not therefore a risk because people genuinely committed to suicide just don't think of their families.
I agree that nurses are not so strong that they don't need others but I sought/ was offered the help of professionals such as doctors and counsellors rather than burdening my problems on family and causing them anxiety. Well, my brother probably would have understood and he was equipped to help me but it is very common for stressed and depressed people not to confide in loved ones.
I hope your life continues to be simple and uncomplicated.
Nope, neither can I. Pretty sorry state of affairs all round.
This sums it up for me... I was going to reply to some of the judgemental, cruel and downright nasty things posted on here but ... you sum things up perfectly Ashbourne. All those who are judging this woman and calling her selfish and worse, should be ashamed of theirselves. Time for this thread to be deleted now, I think - before any of her family or friends can read the disgusting things being said about her.
Disgusting comment.
Speaking from my own personal experience... My son was my saviour..without him I might of chose the same as the nurse.. The thought of leaving him pulled me through a very very tough time and it was a lot worse than answering a phone call and talking for 5 seconds
Yes I agree Yootha.
Betty, you are judging a fraught woman from your own experience. You have no idea how much her mind was fooked.
It's not a competition. I have been suicidal and my children made me change my mind. But there for the grave of God...
Yep
But was it her?
That's a fair enough point. I never thought about that before.
That's what I still don't understand about her. People keep quoting about her culture. So does her culture never allow her to get into trouble for anything? Did they have to treat her with kid gloves all the time in case she flipped every time she got told off?
There's millions of Indians in this country. A lot of them possibly have the same values as her. How many have killed themselves when they've been in trouble for something? there was definitely something else the matter with her.
She was a senior nurse?? :eek: If they promoted her, how bad were the others that arent senior?
As said numerous times before there must have been something going on there behind the scenes that hasn't, or will never be, made public. Only guessing, but I think she was on some sort of warning about her work and unlucky for her, but lucky for the hospital, this all blew up and they could have got rid of her. It also doesn't help having other staff not liking you & possibly not taking any notice of you when giving orders & them possibly being jealous of her as she was promoted and they weren't. But it all became public because of what she did and the hospital is desperately trying to cover themselves now and making themselves the goody goodys. Was it them that arranged the service in Westminster Cathedral to show how caring they were about her?
The private sector don't apply NHS grades to nursing staff.
At the age of 46 and with many years of experience behind her I am sure she was competent, I have only read good things about her nursing practice and the management have given a glowing account of her diligence and dedication.
I don't know where the other poster got the idea that other staff didn't like her
It is very harsh for some other posters here to make a judgement on her nursing ability based on the fact she made a mistake with one phone call, at a time when most people are in bed but she had been up working all night. She should not have been placed in the position of receiving such phone calls so I don't believe she was totally responsible for the mistake. She was not going to be disciplined, the hospital cannot lie, they must take some of the blame for not employing a proper receptionist.
It can be a bit like talking to a brick wall on this forum.
im not so sure
I sort of thought private hospitals would have similar if not the same way of grading. The nursing home I worked in prior to my training used the old SRN, EN type of gradings, this was over a decade ago though. It makes sense that things are different in the private sector.
I imagine if the hospital was cutting costs by not employing a receptionist at night. I wonder how many nocturnal calls they normally get?
I concur that to judge her practice on one incident is harsh. Excessively so. I do not understand the level of judgement being passed on this poor woman. Even in death people are criticising her. A real shame in my opinion.
Why was she living in nurses accommodation? Was she separated from her husband and family? We may never find out the full reasons behind her decision now though.
The latter is fairly straightforward, her family home was in Bristol. Presumably her husband worked there and her kids went to school there. Bristol to London is one hell of a commute!
Private hospitals usually entice NHS nurses with the promise of a better salary but they start off at a rate that looks higher on paper but just equates to Band 5 inclusive of enhancements that we in the NHS receive for working weekends and nights. After the first year or so, the salary is negotiated between the employer and employee and is dependant on performance. There could be 5 nurses working together on a private ward, all doing the same job on completely different salaries - but no one would know anybody else's salary, unlike in the NHS.
Private wards within the NHS are different, the staff are still NHS staff on NHS bandings. I don't really know too much about private nursing homes, my friend works in one and I know she is earning band 6 equivalent but I must ask her if they apply the yearly banding increments.
To be honest, in response to the other poster, I have never experienced jealousy or resentment from nurses not happy about being bypassed for promotion. It doesn't work like that. Nurses need to apply and be shortlisted and interviewed for senior positions, the ambitious type will obviously seek opportunities for promotion (nothing wrong with that, I was like that
Thanks. Never fancied private sector or military so haven't looked into it. My hospital has no private patients whatsoever. I am not ambitious. I am happy as top increment band 5. I like my day to day patient work. I see the nonsense my band 6 & 7's have to do and it puts me off. I also have never seen jealousy about any promotions.