Apple invent their own built in Sim Card

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  • WelshBluebirdWelshBluebird Posts: 740
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    BKM wrote: »
    This depends VERY much on the networks - it is NOT just Apple's decision!

    I think you are underestimating the power Apple have over the networks.
    For example, Micro (and now nano) sims weren't really much of a thing until Apple started using them. Then all of the networks had to be able to provide them.
  • Everything GoesEverything Goes Posts: 12,972
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    So the iPhone 6 may support Soft Sims.
    Maurice Patrick, analyst at Barclays, said Apple was partnering with some networks but this could become more widely adopted. “We believe the basic soft-Sim authentication technology is already present in the iPhone 6, however it isn’t offered as an option by carriers . . . Should Apple gain soft-Sim critical mass they may finally be able to break operator resistance to the technology, potentially becoming the norm for iPhones.”

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/604bdad8-55e2-11e4-a3c9-00144feab7de.html#axzz3GPCWcwWI

    Now if Apple have built this in as a Virtual Sim to their own err standards then it will cause some problems. Apple are good at coming up with their own walled garden control systems. So this may be the thin end of the wedge. Ideally they want you to have an iPhone and make it difficult to change phones.

    If its a built in Virtual Sim which they are aiming for. Imagine your iPhone goes on the blink. You have a spare phone but you cant swap Sim cards as its built in.

    If its a proprietary removable Soft Sim then it will only work in Apple devices that support it.

    Apple can make money from removable Soft Sim sales cutting into the networks home territory. Plus they have more control over how you use it or in this case how you cant use it!
  • mooxmoox Posts: 18,880
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    In my opinion this has the potential to change up the mobile phone industry in the same way that the music industry was changed by iTunes. That resulted in us consumers getting cheaper music and enabling musicians to more easily release their material without the controlling record labels.

    From what I've read this has the potential for us to have a single SIM card in the device, but to easily switch providers of our own choice when travelling. There's the potential that you'll get service without having to tie in to one carrier for both home and abroad. The device would be unlocked and you could have Three's Feel At Home where it works, and then different local sims in countries where it doesn't, without having to swap cards.

    It'll be a while until this really develops, but it's an interesting development.

    Although it's possible that Apple and the network operators could still organise it so that devices provided and subsidised through the networks either come with an "Apple SIM" that can only be used on that network (until "unlocked") or that they don't come with an Apple SIM at all, and continue to come with normal SIM cards.
  • Old EndeavourOld Endeavour Posts: 9,852
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    Ha Ha I love it when companies get too big for their boots and think that as they now consider themselves God, they can dispose with everyone else and force everyone to do everything their way.

    Windows 8 all over again.

    I await the crash, burn and damage limiting to come.
  • kidspudkidspud Posts: 18,341
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    swordman wrote: »
    I wasn't asking you about the conjecture provided in 'other' posts I was asking you what you think it does.

    It seems strange that a company like Apple, that provide mobile devices that are notoriously difficult to unlock, will offer this sim free choice as standard. Do you think this is what they will offer then a fully sim free iphone?

    If that is indeed the case sounds very good indeed. However what would not be so good is a limited number of tarriffs/providers that limit the choice defined by Apple. Do you think this is a possibility?

    Do I think that phones (both iOS and android) could go over to soft sims in the future, yes.

    Do I think that Apple would try and limit tarrif choice, no.
  • Zack06Zack06 Posts: 28,304
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    I hope the EU Commission come down on this like a ton of bricks.

    It would give Apple too much control over consumers. Apple could potentially force the networks to pay and/or take a cut in contract sales to be a part of their virtual SIM plan, and it's not like the carriers would have much leverage to refuse Apple's potential demands.

    A very sinister move in my view. Plus it makes it a lot less easy to transfer SIMs between devices.
  • kidspudkidspud Posts: 18,341
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    Zack06 wrote: »
    I hope the EU Commission come down on this like a ton of bricks.

    It would give Apple too much control over consumers. Apple could potentially force the networks to pay and/or take a cut in contract sales to be a part of their virtual SIM plan, and it's not like the carriers would have much leverage to refuse Apple's potential demands.

    A very sinister move in my view. Plus it makes it a lot less easy to transfer SIMs between devices.

    You want the EU to stop something that gives the user more choice and freedom:o that foes sound sinister.
  • Zack06Zack06 Posts: 28,304
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    kidspud wrote: »
    You want the EU to stop something that gives the user more choice and freedom:o that foes sound sinister.

    In what way does this "give the user more choice and freedom" when physical capabilities are being taken away from the device?
  • swordmanswordman Posts: 6,679
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    Originally Posted by swordman
    I wasn't asking you about the conjecture provided in 'other' posts I was asking you what you think it does.......... Do you think this is what they will offer then a fully sim free iphone?
    kidspud wrote: »
    Do I think that phones (both iOS and android) could go over to soft sims in the future, yes.

    :confused: good pointless answer as per usual
    kidspud wrote: »
    Do I think that Apple would try and limit tarrif choice, no.

    So all available tariffs just the same as buying any sim will be available, I will bookmark and return to this.

    Any idea why only EE are available on the ipad then?
  • kidspudkidspud Posts: 18,341
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    Zack06 wrote: »
    In what way does this "give the user more choice and freedom" when physical capabilities are being taken away from the device?
    swordman wrote: »
    :confused: good pointless answer as per usual



    So all available tariffs just the same as buying any sim will be available, I will bookmark and return to this.

    Any idea why only EE are available on the ipad then?

    EE is not the only network available. You can put whatever sim you like in it. The soft sim is an additional feature.

    And you can bookmark any page you like, I just use the search function to find your 'headline' classics.
  • swordmanswordman Posts: 6,679
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    So you agree the soft sim is limited by providers and tariffs. So if the sim slot is removed, which will happen you maintain that all available tariffs and providers will be ported to this virtual sim, am I correct?
  • d123d123 Posts: 8,594
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    Daveoc64 wrote: »
    There isn't any choice - it's EE only.

    Very few people are going to want to choose between EE in the UK and from one of three carriers in the US.

    We don't know if there are restrictions - perhaps taking out a US plan will require a US billing address.

    Don't you understand the concept being discussed?

    It's fairly easy, you have the choice of using the sim supplied in the phone (and simply signing up to a network Apple work out a deal with) OR you remove the sim and use your own sim card from any of the thousands of networks around the world if you don't want or can't sign up with one of the Apple plans..

    That is hardly "there isn't any choice" :confused:.
  • Mr_DBMr_DB Posts: 48
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    I think too many people are missing the whole point of this, and the likely path it will take.

    Firstly, I think it's easy to argue that there's a case that saving a load of plastic and metal in making the chips is eco/green friendly - as is not having to transport them. Not only that, you reduce the costs to manufacture and distribute them. This is positive for the networks and the consumer.

    Secondly, the obvious way to do this is to take what's positive about the physical SIM card to construct any replacement - and to me that looks like what Apple are doing: creating a virtual SIM that the consumer can switch between providers on.

    Thirdly, where we are today physical SIMs rule the market, so for anything that replaces it there will be a period of time that devices need to use both - or a hybrid.

    Fourthly, Apple and the networks need each other. Apple need the networks on board to make this work. If they don't have the networks on board using virtual SIMs - if the networks don't support it, then it becomes a pointless feature. However, the networks equally need the iPhone to keep customers and do great things for the company coffers - a lot of people that use iPhones and iPads choose the device before the network - quite often because they perceive value and substance in the products, features and support. "Ease of use" ranks quite highly for a lot of Apple owners, and a virtual SIM ticks that box.

    Fifthly, Apple may charge a license fee, they may get more of a slice of the pie from the networks, but ultimately they're going to have to allow networks use the virtual SIM technology if they wish to due to the fourth point above - but also if they don't they might be accused of price fixing or unfair competition. In a way, that forces Apple to be more open than the present system - because at the minute they can choose who they sell iPhones to and at what price. Yes customers can still buy their own phone and put their own SIM card in - but they still have to make all those arrangements which is hassle, whereas now those networks can be on the devices with a few seconds.

    Sixthly, this could be positive for everyone. Yes networks that aren't performing with their product (network) or customer service, or aren't competitive enough with new features and technologies, can be kicked to the side quickly by a fickle customer base. It also means that they can be switched to from another provider. If you're offering what a customer perceives to be the best product for them (everyone's different - price / features / value / customer service / etc) then you can be chosen... So you need to excel and innovate over the competition to retain and gain customers.

    Finally ("finally!" I hear you say!) if this leads to the uncoupling of the handset and network then this could lead to really good things for us as consumers. Look at what John Legere of T-Mobile US is achieving over there by unsettling the market by breaking phones away from contracts (you can still finance your phone over a period of time if you want to, much like I think O2 is doing here now) -- but what it means is on a basic network level they have to fight not just for but also to keep your business, and T-Mobile US is really growing hugely and their customers are benefitting from it all. The UK could definitely do with some of that!
  • mooxmoox Posts: 18,880
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    Mr_DB wrote: »
    I think too many people are missing the whole point of this, and the likely path it will take.

    Firstly, I think it's easy to argue that there's a case that saving a load of plastic and metal in making the chips is eco/green friendly - as is not having to transport them. Not only that, you reduce the costs to manufacture and distribute them. This is positive for the networks and the consumer.

    This is Apple - a company that prides itself on forced obsolescence and trying to get you to buy a new iShiny every year or two, regardless of if your existing one could work. I'm not sure how some SIM cards are going to make a dent in the overall environmental impact of millions of phones going to landfill when Apple decides to drop support.
    Mr_DB wrote: »
    Fourthly, Apple and the networks need each other. Apple need the networks on board to make this work. If they don't have the networks on board using virtual SIMs - if the networks don't support it, then it becomes a pointless feature. However, the networks equally need the iPhone to keep customers and do great things for the company coffers - a lot of people that use iPhones and iPads choose the device before the network - quite often because they perceive value and substance in the products, features and support. "Ease of use" ranks quite highly for a lot of Apple owners, and a virtual SIM ticks that box.

    I'd say it's easier to push out the SIM tray, insert SIM, and put it back in, compared to having to go through the rigmarole of getting Apple to provision their SIM

    Mr_DB wrote: »
    Sixthly, this could be positive for everyone. Yes networks that aren't performing with their product (network) or customer service, or aren't competitive enough with new features and technologies, can be kicked to the side quickly by a fickle customer base. It also means that they can be switched to from another provider. If you're offering what a customer perceives to be the best product for them (everyone's different - price / features / value / customer service / etc) then you can be chosen... So you need to excel and innovate over the competition to retain and gain customers.

    Finally ("finally!" I hear you say!) if this leads to the uncoupling of the handset and network then this could lead to really good things for us as consumers. Look at what John Legere of T-Mobile US is achieving over there by unsettling the market by breaking phones away from contracts (you can still finance your phone over a period of time if you want to, much like I think O2 is doing here now) -- but what it means is on a basic network level they have to fight not just for but also to keep your business, and T-Mobile US is really growing hugely and their customers are benefitting from it all. The UK could definitely do with some of that!

    We have had SIM free handsets and good-value SIM only plans for a long time. Those people who don't want to lock themselves into long contracts can already do so. Those who don't want to pay anything upfront and get a "free" iPhone can do so. The Apple SIM changes neither.

    T-Mobile US, and the US mobile industry, are pretty well behind us here.
  • Mr_DBMr_DB Posts: 48
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    moox wrote: »
    This is Apple - a company that prides itself on forced obsolescence and trying to get you to buy a new iShiny every year or two, regardless of if your existing one could work. I'm not sure how some SIM cards are going to make a dent in the overall environmental impact of millions of phones going to landfill when Apple decides to drop support.

    I agree with you about phones (and any/all) consumer devices creating landfill. That said, it doesn't mean that improvements shouldn't be made where they can. The number of SIM activated devices currently in existence (and that's actually activated, not just issued ever) overtook the number of people on the planet for the first time ever last month. To say 7.2 billion SIM cards (that in the majority are replaced between every year to three years) isn't a worthy saving from a green perspective is crazy. I'm not saying that it isn't dwarfed into comparison to other things - but surely every little helps?
    moox wrote: »
    I'd say it's easier to push out the SIM tray, insert SIM, and put it back in, compared to having to go through the rigmarole of getting Apple to provision their SIM

    I'm guessing that switching between SIMs at will will be a Settings > Mobile > Choose Network SIM and then selecting the SIM you want to use (or set up a new one). I don't think that's a rigmarole.
    moox wrote: »
    We have had SIM free handsets and good-value SIM only plans for a long time. Those people who don't want to lock themselves into long contracts can already do so. Those who don't want to pay anything upfront and get a "free" iPhone can do so. The Apple SIM changes neither.

    T-Mobile US, and the US mobile industry, are pretty well behind us here.

    I agree that the US mobile industry is behind us - but I also think T-Mobile US are actually starting to get ahead of us. What their CEO is achieving for consumers over there is amazing, and I think we could benefit from over here. If you haven't seen his GeekWire interview (which is here: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/video-un-carrier-ceo-john-legere-unleashed-geekwire-stage/), it's quite an eye-opener. I didn't realise half the things that were happening with T-Mobile US, and what they were doing, but watching that video left me in no doubt that from a customer service perspective, and doing the right by the consumer to allow the company to grow, they're doing the right thing. Instead of chasing the money from the customer, they're chasing excellent service... Which has seen them grow beyond what anyone would have imagined.
  • psionicpsionic Posts: 20,188
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    A SIM is little more then ID number on a physical piece of plastic. The networks assign a particular phone number to that ID. If the ID number was hard coded in the phone itself the networks can still assign a phone number to whatever that ID is. Also just like you can transfer your number across and swap a SIM card - the networks could easily move your number to another physical device - often in a matter of minutes. A digital device having a unique ID which can be mapped to a phone number rather then a physical piece of plastic isn't much of a technical challenge.

    The main issues are those of control and profiteering. The whole business of having phones locked to a particular network for example is totally unnecessary and a total pain for consumers.

    All the networks globally need to agree a (preferably open) system where this could be done and benefit everyone. But some of them have virtual monopolies in certain parts of the world, and are going to be very resistant to changing anything. Anyway I reckon physical SIM cards will go the way of the dodo eventually, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. There are many vested interests at play here - but it's not an insurmountable challenge as long as enough compromises are made to ensure networks still have enough leeway to make profit.
  • GigabitGigabit Posts: 8,768
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    T-Mobile US are sort-of getting ahead I suppose.

    Their business model is still mostly based on contract phones though. I don't understand why the SIM-free model hasn't picked up over there.
  • kidspudkidspud Posts: 18,341
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    swordman wrote: »
    So you agree the soft sim is limited by providers and tariffs. So if the sim slot is removed, which will happen you maintain that all available tariffs and providers will be ported to this virtual sim, am I correct?

    The sim slot is in the device, so not sure how you have predicted that it will be removed.

    Of course it does meet your normal anti-apple nonsense, however, for the rest of us it is good to see apple offering options beneficial to the user others don't.
  • Mr_DBMr_DB Posts: 48
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    I agree totally psionic. I think Apple will want and need the networks (as well as other device manufacturers) on board to make it work - and if they don't then it'll be regulated and/or cause unfair competition court cases.

    Apple's interest in this I think is two fold - one to take up less physical room ultimately, and two to make things as easy for the customer to pick whatever network they want - to give them the option and choice, and make it as easy and seamless as possible. That puts power in the consumers hand (no pun intended), and as a customer that's powerful (and a tad ironic maybe!). Networks may not like it, but they will probably feel forced into doing it initially and then actually become better because of it (for all the reasons in my other post - eg having to be competitive and innovative to survive). If they don't do it and the feature's there anyway, a consumer can switch to another network away from you, but not to you.... So they'll need to do it.
  • Mr_DBMr_DB Posts: 48
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    Gigabit wrote: »
    T-Mobile US are sort-of getting ahead I suppose.

    Their business model is still mostly based on contract phones though. I don't understand why the SIM-free model hasn't picked up over there.

    It's a different market, and each has their idiosyncrasies I suppose? T-Mobile US do have a lot of business through contract phones, but they're really pushing (and seeing results from) their un-carrier model... But more importantly their CEO is calling out a lot of the bad practices in both the subsidy model and poor customer service and poor technical products over there. They're growing faster than they could have ever dreamt because of it too...
  • tycho-magtycho-mag Posts: 8,650
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    psionic wrote: »
    A SIM is little more then ID number on a physical piece of plastic. The networks assign a particular phone number to that ID. If the ID number was hard coded in the phone itself the networks can still assign a phone number to whatever that ID is.

    Verizon and Sprint have that - its called an "ESN" for Electronic Serial Number.

    The problem is without a removable module, there is nothing forcing these networks to activate a device they didn't sell. So Verizon will never activate a device originally sold by Sprint and vice versa - despite the phone would technically work.

    Thankfully the EU directives (as copied into UK and other EU country law) requires a SIM card to be used for all networks. This means the device and the service are capable of being separated.

    The apple idea where you can just tap on a price plan for a data service from any network in an area is interesting. So you could be in Scotland and have 3 days of Vodafone data for say £5. Then go to Cornwall and find you need Three for the only signal and get 5 days of Three 3G for £8.

    Better you could then go to the USA and connect to T-Mobile or AT&T and get service for similar prices - not the high roaming prices we are charged at the moment (without deals like Three's Feel at Home).

    That sort of flexibility is a very interesting idea - and it will take a few months to sort out if this takes off.
  • mooxmoox Posts: 18,880
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    psionic wrote: »
    A SIM is little more then ID number on a physical piece of plastic. The networks assign a particular phone number to that ID. If the ID number was hard coded in the phone itself the networks can still assign a phone number to whatever that ID is. Also just like you can transfer your number across and swap a SIM card - the networks could easily move your number to another physical device - often in a matter of minutes. A digital device having a unique ID which can be mapped to a phone number rather then a physical piece of plastic isn't much of a technical challenge..

    The SIM contains a bit more than just that - it contains encryption keys, which would either need to be passed around over the internet to the network operator you choose to use, or for the network operator to be able to update them on the fly.

    Sounds like a bit of a security risk compared to the network operator being able to create them securely before sending the SIMs out to customers. It also potentially opens up the ability to clone SIMs, a thing the network operators have been trying to eliminate for a while (older SIMs could have the keys brute forced out of them, newer ones deliberately die if you try)
  • Daveoc64Daveoc64 Posts: 15,374
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    d123 wrote: »
    That is hardly "there isn't any choice" :confused:.

    You're not confused, you're just being difficult.

    If the "Apple SIM" offers only one UK carrier option, it offers none of the benefits people are talking about such as "convenience" and "ease of switching".

    Any phone can accept different SIMs, so don't act like that is somehow a magical part of this "feature".

    The objection that I and many other posters in this thread have to this is that Apple is notoriously in favour of restricting how people use their phones to fit carrier requirements.

    The current SIM card system gives networks and manufacturers absolutely zero control over how, when and how often you change to another network provider.

    Any "soft" system is never going to offer that.
  • BKMBKM Posts: 6,912
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    Daveoc64 wrote: »
    You're not confused, you're just being difficult.

    If the "Apple SIM" offers only one UK carrier option, it offers none of the benefits people are talking about such as "convenience" and "ease of switching".

    Any phone can accept different SIMs, so don't act like that is somehow a magical part of this "feature".

    The objection that I and many other posters in this thread have to this is that Apple is notoriously in favour of restricting how people use their phones to fit carrier requirements.

    The current SIM card system gives networks and manufacturers absolutely zero control over how, when and how often you change to another network provider.

    Any "soft" system is never going to offer that.
    People have got hung up on this "soft SIM" concept with zero evidence! It looks certain that, at this present time, the SIM from Apple will be a physical one which can be removed and your own inserted. What is remotely hard about that?
  • Mr_DBMr_DB Posts: 48
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    moox wrote: »
    The SIM contains a bit more than just that - it contains encryption keys, which would either need to be passed around over the internet to the network operator you choose to use, or for the network operator to be able to update them on the fly.

    Sounds like a bit of a security risk compared to the network operator being able to create them securely before sending the SIMs out to customers. It also potentially opens up the ability to clone SIMs, a thing the network operators have been trying to eliminate for a while (older SIMs could have the keys brute forced out of them, newer ones deliberately die if you try)

    Thing is, you could still use a PKI with public key / private key infrastructure to ensure security. Each device could have a private key when it's shipped that can have its identity confirmed and decryption allowed with a public key... Likewise in reverse - when a device is shipped it knows which certificate authorities to trust, and those root CAs are only updated by using encrypted, signed verification from an existing trusted source.

    For all intents and purposes a SIM card is a "type" of smart card. A "virtual SIM card" can exist using a TPM chip in hardware. I don't know all the details yet, but I'm guessing that the virtual SIM card may be something similar, in which case combined with PKI this would be very hard (nigh on impossible at the moment) to clone.

    TPM security can be circumvented, but at present requires the device to stay powered on, and the TPM chip to be drilled within very precise measurements, then you to have the equipment to connect to the TPM chip. It's not a trivial task, and when you add in the fact that someone would have to lose their phone before that could even take place, it goes from impractical and unlikely to most likely not going to happen unless you're of a really high status - in which case you're probably paranoid about losing your phone so won't.
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