I've never felt ashamed to be scottish in my whole life and even if it was a Yes vote I wouldn't have felt ashamed of anyone, instead I would have accepted a democratic result by what was one of the highest turnouts in scottish history.
It's easy to make statements like that when the result was the one that you voted for.
Im always reminded of the 45 rebellion when I see it............ Will folk be having secret paintings of the Salmond across the water made:D
I'd much prefer a more progressive forward looking movement than a backward one. There's some sites out there that still concentrate on blaming all and sundry for everything.
the progressive forward looking movement isn't attached to the unionist parties who are all desperate to hold onto the past blaming each other for absolutely everything (unless they have the blame immigrants illness) with none having a real plan beyond end of a week .... gave up hope on tory or labour doing any real good back in 1980s, gave up on libdems totally long ago too once I realised they are no better .... Cameron's plan to destroy Labour support in Scotland (a huge component of reason he allowed referendum) seems to have worked quite well further undermining progressiveness he''ll hope
both sides had ample opportunity to make their case
everyone who wished to do so had the opportunity to vote
the answer with the most votes won
just because you apparently have some problem with the outcome doesn't make it less "real"
I would disagree with that. There was massive propaganda against independence in almost every single newspaper available to Scottish voters. When there's no balance there's an issue. The BBC should have been investigating whether these claims were truth or propaganda but instead it was just reported without being probed. That's no use.
the progressive forward looking movement isn't attached to the unionist parties who are all desperate to hold onto the past blaming each other for absolutely everything (unless they have the blame immigrants illness) with none having a real plan beyond end of a week .... gave up hope on tory or labour doing any real good back in 1980s, gave up on libdems totally long ago too once I realised they are no better .... Cameron's plan to destroy Labour support in Scotland (a huge component of reason he allowed referendum) seems to have worked quite well further undermining progressiveness he''ll hope
Labour were looking out for their own interests as were the Tories. Scotland's most important vote in its long history was hijacked by London, who campaigned through their branch offices in Scotland. The Tories orchestrated the whole British establishment to close ranks on the Scots and Labour stood shoulder to shoulder with that den of vipers against its most loyal supporters.
I don't blame the Tories at all, the blame lies squarely with Labour, with its Scottish politicians who knew that Scotland could better serve its citizens by choosing its own destiny through independence. Labour lied through its teeth, I wish maximum damage to its branch office. It chose not to protect Scotland from Tory policies instead left us vulnerable to them. Even after securing the No vote they still backed Tory manoeuvring through the Smith Commission.
[Labour] chose not to protect Scotland from Tory policies instead left us vulnerable to them.
So after independence, when the people in Scotland who stopped voting Conservative because it was pointless started voting Conservative again because it would then make a difference (increasing the 1-in-6 proportion of Scottish voters that already vote Conservative), putting the political balance closer to how it currently stands in the UK, what would you do then to protect Scotland from Tory policies?
I thought independence was about independence, not about an anti-Tory stance?
So after independence, when the people in Scotland who stopped voting Conservative because it was pointless started voting Conservative again because it would then make a difference (increasing the 1-in-6 proportion of Scottish voters that already vote Conservative), putting the political balance closer to how it currently stands in the UK, what would you do then to protect Scotland from Tory policies?
I thought independence was about independence, not about an anti-Tory stance?
Stopped voting conservative because it was pointless? A Tory party in an independent Scotland would not be London centric.
Labour chose to front a Tory funded campaign against independence. Amongst other things they told us the NHS was safer with a "No" vote, that we were better together. Then after securing a "No" vote told us the the Tories were destroying the NHS, they released a video telling us the Tories could not be trusted and that they had not changed since the Thatcher days.
Labour had two chances to protect Scotland from these policies, 1, independence, and 2, Devo Max through the Smith Commission, they sided with the Tories on both occasions. This is the point. They themselves cannot be trusted.
In a "real" democracy, 55 will beat 45 every single time.
Real democracy isnt about numbers or results...its about having the freedom to choose without cohercion and/or bullying etc. Its being able to make up your own mind free from pressure of news or media or peers or anything. If people are given a democratic vote then they should also be forwarded the respect deserved to make their choice. There is no harm in a public broadcaster per say helping with such a choice because at least a public broadcaster would be fair and unbiased which is a great thing but then again.....I stick to my earlier post that its a shame the referendum wasnt 'real' democracy in action
Labour had two chances to protect Scotland from these policies, 1, independence, and 2, Devo Max through the Smith Commission, they sided with the Tories on both occasions. This is the point. They themselves cannot be trusted.
And now they have elected a leader who is like something from House of Cards. In Sturgeon we have Birgitte Nyborg and in Murphy Francis Urquhart.
(it says a lot about how tragic I am that I casually reference these people ;-))
And now they have elected a leader who is like something from House of Cards. In Sturgeon we have Birgitte Nyborg and in Murphy Francis Urquhart.
(it says a lot about how tragic I am that I casually reference these people ;-))
:D:D I watched it years ago couldn't remember their names though. I wonder what happened to the actress playing the journalist, she liked me a lot.:cool:
:D:D I watched it years ago couldn't remember their names though. I wonder what happened to the actress playing the journalist, she liked me a lot.:cool:
Jeez I watched I Claudius as a school kid, but the history lesson wasn't its only appeal to a teenager.
I loved history and politics growing up. One of my friends can remember that in primary one I was the boy who didn't like Maggie Thatcher. #brainwashed
A separate Scottish economy would have collapsed allongside the slide in the price of oil so I expect the result would have been even more convincing for 'No thanks'.
It's easy to make statements like that when the result was the one that you voted for.
True but the statement remains the same. I was actually quite proud of the turnout as well. Proud that so many Scots went out to vote which showed just how much most folk cared about this issue.
the progressive forward looking movement isn't attached to the unionist parties who are all desperate to hold onto the past blaming each other for absolutely everything (unless they have the blame immigrants illness) with none having a real plan beyond end of a week .... gave up hope on tory or labour doing any real good back in 1980s, gave up on libdems totally long ago too once I realised they are no better .... Cameron's plan to destroy Labour support in Scotland (a huge component of reason he allowed referendum) seems to have worked quite well further undermining progressiveness he''ll hope
I guess you didn't understand what you highlighted then? It's a shame that your views are so clouded that you can't perceive anything other than your preconceived notions of these things.
I wasn't talking about traditional parties when I spoke of looking forward.
And now they have elected a leader who is like something from House of Cards. In Sturgeon we have Birgitte Nyborg and in Murphy Francis Urquhart.
(it says a lot about how tragic I am that I casually reference these people ;-))
While I would agree with you on Murphy I have no real opinions on Sturgeons capabilities. I am really not sure that she is better then any other career politician, for all we know she might be the Kelsey Grammar character in the Boss.
I'm fairly wary of anyone whose whole life has only been party politics, unfortunately I believe it gives then very little life experience of little else.
While I would agree with you on Murphy I have no real opinions on Sturgeons capabilities. I am really not sure that she is better then any other career politician, for all we know she might be the Kelsey Grammar character in the Boss.
I'm fairly wary of anyone whose whole life has only been party politics, unfortunately I believe it gives then very little life experience of little else.
I'm not sure that's the case but generally I'd agree with you. Sturgeon lacks warmth I think but I don't think her belief in a fair society is anything other than genuine. When she speaks I feel like she see's and understands things in the way that I do. Salmond never really had that even although he was a strong leader. I think Sturgeon is genuine.
Real democracy isnt about numbers or results...its about having the freedom to choose without cohercion and/or bullying etc. Its being able to make up your own mind free from pressure of news or media or peers or anything. If people are given a democratic vote then they should also be forwarded the respect deserved to make their choice. There is no harm in a public broadcaster per say helping with such a choice because at least a public broadcaster would be fair and unbiased which is a great thing but then again.....I stick to my earlier post that its a shame the referendum wasnt 'real' democracy in action
I'm not sure that's the case but generally I'd agree with you. Sturgeon lacks warmth I think but I don't think her belief in a fair society is anything other than genuine. When she speaks I feel like she see's and understands things in the way that I do. Salmond never really had that even although he was a strong leader. I think Sturgeon is genuine.
Yes, I think she not only lacks warmth but empathy too, I don't get what your seeing in her.
Her experiences are all shaped by lifelong membership of the SNP starting with her SNP politically motivated parents. She's married to the SNP n more ways than one. If it was a choice to have no children then it's more than likely because tha party comes first in all things to her.
While I don't doubt she also has scotland in her heart, I do seriously wonder if she would choose scotland over her SNP family.
I'd also add that I have the exact same feelings about murphy. If labour were elected as a Scottish Government I have no doubts that they would never go against anything a labour UK government did and would put the party before the country.
All in all, she's the new face of the Party rather than the party 'leader', or perhaps, new figurehead would be more appropriate. The same of course, applies to all party 'leaders' - no real power and just the main mouthpiece.
.....
I'd also add that I have the exact same feelings about murphy. If labour were elected as a Scottish Government I have no doubts that they would never go against anything a labour UK government did and would put the party before the country.
labour are like that because they aren't a Scottish political party (last party by that name dissolved in 1981) .. all UK party line first & well, nothing else matters
Comments
so explain why what happened wasn't real ?
both sides had ample opportunity to make their case
everyone who wished to do so had the opportunity to vote
the answer with the most votes won
just because you apparently have some problem with the outcome doesn't make it less "real"
I would disagree with that. There was massive propaganda against independence in almost every single newspaper available to Scottish voters. When there's no balance there's an issue. The BBC should have been investigating whether these claims were truth or propaganda but instead it was just reported without being probed. That's no use.
Labour were looking out for their own interests as were the Tories. Scotland's most important vote in its long history was hijacked by London, who campaigned through their branch offices in Scotland. The Tories orchestrated the whole British establishment to close ranks on the Scots and Labour stood shoulder to shoulder with that den of vipers against its most loyal supporters.
I don't blame the Tories at all, the blame lies squarely with Labour, with its Scottish politicians who knew that Scotland could better serve its citizens by choosing its own destiny through independence. Labour lied through its teeth, I wish maximum damage to its branch office. It chose not to protect Scotland from Tory policies instead left us vulnerable to them. Even after securing the No vote they still backed Tory manoeuvring through the Smith Commission.
So after independence, when the people in Scotland who stopped voting Conservative because it was pointless started voting Conservative again because it would then make a difference (increasing the 1-in-6 proportion of Scottish voters that already vote Conservative), putting the political balance closer to how it currently stands in the UK, what would you do then to protect Scotland from Tory policies?
I thought independence was about independence, not about an anti-Tory stance?
Stopped voting conservative because it was pointless? A Tory party in an independent Scotland would not be London centric.
Labour chose to front a Tory funded campaign against independence. Amongst other things they told us the NHS was safer with a "No" vote, that we were better together. Then after securing a "No" vote told us the the Tories were destroying the NHS, they released a video telling us the Tories could not be trusted and that they had not changed since the Thatcher days.
Labour had two chances to protect Scotland from these policies, 1, independence, and 2, Devo Max through the Smith Commission, they sided with the Tories on both occasions. This is the point. They themselves cannot be trusted.
Real democracy isnt about numbers or results...its about having the freedom to choose without cohercion and/or bullying etc. Its being able to make up your own mind free from pressure of news or media or peers or anything. If people are given a democratic vote then they should also be forwarded the respect deserved to make their choice. There is no harm in a public broadcaster per say helping with such a choice because at least a public broadcaster would be fair and unbiased which is a great thing but then again.....I stick to my earlier post that its a shame the referendum wasnt 'real' democracy in action
And now they have elected a leader who is like something from House of Cards. In Sturgeon we have Birgitte Nyborg and in Murphy Francis Urquhart.
(it says a lot about how tragic I am that I casually reference these people ;-))
But I'm only 30
You're talking to a man who's tv favourites include I Claudius and Elizabeth R.
Jeez I watched I Claudius as a school kid, but the history lesson wasn't its only appeal to a teenager.
I loved history and politics growing up. One of my friends can remember that in primary one I was the boy who didn't like Maggie Thatcher. #brainwashed
True but the statement remains the same. I was actually quite proud of the turnout as well. Proud that so many Scots went out to vote which showed just how much most folk cared about this issue.
I guess you didn't understand what you highlighted then? It's a shame that your views are so clouded that you can't perceive anything other than your preconceived notions of these things.
I wasn't talking about traditional parties when I spoke of looking forward.
While I would agree with you on Murphy I have no real opinions on Sturgeons capabilities. I am really not sure that she is better then any other career politician, for all we know she might be the Kelsey Grammar character in the Boss.
I'm fairly wary of anyone whose whole life has only been party politics, unfortunately I believe it gives then very little life experience of little else.
I'm not sure that's the case but generally I'd agree with you. Sturgeon lacks warmth I think but I don't think her belief in a fair society is anything other than genuine. When she speaks I feel like she see's and understands things in the way that I do. Salmond never really had that even although he was a strong leader. I think Sturgeon is genuine.
what a load of nonsensical gibberish
Sorry, it was 'grown up' talk
Yes, I think she not only lacks warmth but empathy too, I don't get what your seeing in her.
Her experiences are all shaped by lifelong membership of the SNP starting with her SNP politically motivated parents. She's married to the SNP n more ways than one. If it was a choice to have no children then it's more than likely because tha party comes first in all things to her.
While I don't doubt she also has scotland in her heart, I do seriously wonder if she would choose scotland over her SNP family.
I'd also add that I have the exact same feelings about murphy. If labour were elected as a Scottish Government I have no doubts that they would never go against anything a labour UK government did and would put the party before the country.