Doctor Who: Into The Dalek BBC One/HD 30/08/2014 7.30 pm Official Thread

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  • Joe_ZelJoe_Zel Posts: 20,832
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    Transformers is very enjoyable actually so we disagree again

    Disagree all you want I'm simply stating a point. A visually stunning film has no bearing on whether the story/characters themselves will be enjoyable.

    Just like a good story/characters won't guarantee great production values unless you have the right people and budget.
  • Joe_ZelJoe_Zel Posts: 20,832
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    Dan-Bevis wrote: »
    It might be classed as a fixed point [so, like, with the Doctor dying with that spacesuit seasons ago, unless there's a Deux Ex Machina on the horizon...]

    The Doctor's companions [Saint Rose and Martha aside] pretty much get horrible ends [Donna especially].

    But Oswin inside of the Dalek was not Clara. It is a part of her from when she was split in the Doctor's timeline like the Victoria woman from The Snowmen, but they are not her in the future. They are all separate entities.
  • lady_xanaxlady_xanax Posts: 5,662
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    I think Twelve will soften up a bit more. There does seem to be a cheekiness lacking but I suppose that's in contrast to the other ones before him. I like that it seems to be recalling a bit of Nine. I'm kind of hoping for a bit of Eight (post-movie).
  • wollygobblewollygobble Posts: 129
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    Dan-Bevis wrote: »
    It might be classed as a fixed point [so, like, with the Doctor dying with that spacesuit seasons ago, unless there's a Deux Ex Machina on the horizon...]

    The Doctor's companions [Saint Rose and Martha aside] pretty much get horrible ends [Donna especially].
    If you're referring to The Impossible Astronaut, the Deus Ex Machina appeared at the end of the season in the shape of the Teselecta - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wedding_of_River_Song
  • allen_whoallen_who Posts: 2,819
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    can anyone explain to me how the Doc and Clara got out of the Dalek and returned to normal size.

    Have I missed something. It just seemd to occur without explanation...
  • GeenyGeeny Posts: 725
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    Harold Pinter once said that he knew no more about the mysterious characters in his plays than what was written on the page. That's an extreme case, but it reminds me that it's sometimes a mistake to assume that where there are questions, the showrunner and/or writers have all the answers. As far as I'm concerned, the whole idea of the Impossible Girl and her splinters is so bonkers that you can answer the questions however you like. Moffat may have said something about her memory if he was asked, but he probably doesn't even remember what he said.

    On the subject of Capaldi and his accent, we've been watching DW with subtitles for years. We started as soon as Ten(nant) started gabbling (perfectly clear, but too fast for us), and it was a revelation. We found there was so much dialogue that we would have missed without them (Torchwood even more so) that we have got into the habit and now wouldn't be without them. So no problem with PC's diction, although we did have to turn the volume up so high that the CA was deafening at the end.

    I use subtitles for everything these days. I find Tennant and Capaldi easy but I didn't quite catch all Matt Smith said, I think it was his southern accent
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    allen_who wrote: »
    can anyone explain to me how the Doc and Clara got out of the Dalek and returned to normal size.

    Have I missed something. It just seemd to occur without explanation...

    They were wearing wristbands that would return them to normal size when a button was pressed.


    How they got out of the Dalek? They either went back through the Eye shaft and only pressed the resize buttons when they were outside the Dalek or the resize buttons also had a teleport function that removes the doctor from the patient before resizing them.
  • allen_whoallen_who Posts: 2,819
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    Cheers corwin. . Wow that is something u could easily miss thou eh
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    allen_who wrote: »
    Cheers corwin. . Wow that is something u could easily miss thou eh

    Well the use of the wrist bands to return to normal size was explained by Journey to Clara before they were shrunk it's just exactly how they got out of the Dalek that's conjecture.
  • amos_brearleyamos_brearley Posts: 8,496
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    Corwin wrote: »
    Well the use of the wrist bands to return to normal size was explained by Journey to Clara before they were shrunk it's just exactly how they got out of the Dalek that's conjecture.

    ZOMG THAT'S TWICE NOW MOFFETT HASNT SHOWED US THA CHARACTERZ GETTIN OUT OV SOMEWHERE. SACK HIM NOW!!!

    Or something along those lines, but it does worry me that some people need everything showing on screen when the answer wasn't quite as impossible as some seem to think it was. The whole timestream thing in TNotD had a similar response from certain fans. They just left! :)
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    Can I please put out an em-passionate plea to STOP talking about - or hinting about - next episodes!
    I don't want to know that the ending to episode such and such is rubbish, or that episode whatever is a game changer.
    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but this thread is for the discussion of episode 2 (with some comparison to episode 1).

    Next weeks thread will be for discussing episode 3!


    .

    I absolutely agree. It is very annoying.
    Geeny wrote: »
    I use subtitles for everything these days. I find Tennant and Capaldi easy but I didn't quite catch all Matt Smith said, I think it was his southern accent

    Love it. :D
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    Pull2Open wrote: »

    How come you don't post so much now Granny?

    I've got nothing to say which I haven't already said a million times. (I know that's never stopped me before. :p)
  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    allen_who wrote: »
    can anyone explain to me how the Doc and Clara got out of the Dalek and returned to normal size.

    Have I missed something. It just seemd to occur without explanation...

    They pressed a button on the nano-bracelets they were wearing. That Blue woman explained it to Clara.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 217
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    I'm not feeling the Capaldi love either, which is weird as I thought he'd be brilliant. For me he's not bringing any charm to the role at all. He's cold, dour, joyless and unlikeable. I have no issue with the Doctor being aloof or sarcastic or alien (Pertwee and Tom Baker are two of my favourites) but they also had massive personal charm to act as a counterweight.

    I really enjoyed the first show. I liked this 2nd show but it was rather short on charm and joy in spots. Capaldi is capable of anything and I love to watch him act, so I think some of the dialogue needs to improve to reflect Capaldi's immense talent.. .

    I liked the episode but the solving scene was off for me. What bothered me the most was how they made Clara the smart one and the Doctor the follower! Puleeeease!. How silly is that??! Plus the slap was overdone imo. I think they wrote the roles backwards for that scene! Other than that I liked the show.

    I want my brilliant Doctor whose head is full of ideas and who solves things way ahead of everyone else to be front and center. I don't mind him being aloof and blunt, but am hoping he will be more present and keep his prior brilliance and some warmth towards these humans he has always protected and cared about. :)
  • GreenJadeDragonGreenJadeDragon Posts: 944
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    Hi,
    I'm one of those who tend to vote but not post. I'm only posting because I've got time today, I don't normally but I do read the threads. I voted excellent, not because "It's Dr Who" but because overall I thought the episode was. There were some elements which I wasn't fond of; (This female-slapping-male business is really starting to annoy me, if you have to resort to violence you've lost the argument, plus what kind of example is this showing children. (Oh God, I sound like my mother :o)), but overall I really enjoyed it.

    I'm sure there are plenty of people who could tell me, in detail, exactly why they feel it wasn't, and god knows this thread seems to be full of them, but that's entirely their own business. I have voted episodes as Poor or Average in the past when I felt that they were but loads of other people enjoyed them and thought they were excellent. I don't take it as an personal affront because someone has a difference of opinion from me. People don't think exactly the same way about everything, it's called Free Will and surely that's one of the greatest elements Dr Who is about, making our own decisions and opinions on stuff.

    I'm really enjoying PC as the Doctor, but then I've enjoyed each of the newest incarnations in their own rights. I do like Clara most of the time and I think I'm going to like the new boy Pink. I don't really care that the script was a rip-off of any number of shrinking movies, the self-awareness of that made it easier to go along with the story, unlike splintering people over timelines which took a couple of watches to work out.

    I'll still be watching next week and I'll vote on my view. I hope no one is mortally offended by that.
  • elfcurryelfcurry Posts: 3,232
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    Can I please put out an em-passionate plea to STOP talking about - or hinting about - next episodes!
    I don't want to know that the ending to episode such and such is rubbish, or that episode whatever is a game changer.
    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but this thread is for the discussion of episode 2 (with some comparison to episode 1).

    Next weeks thread will be for discussing episode 3!
    Agreed. Maybe the thread for each episode can be started early so people who've seen trailers (including 'next time') or read leaks or spoilers can discuss their impressions with others who choose to view them, without mixing them in with discussing the current episode. Those posts then become the starting point of the next ep thread and purists (umm... obsessives like me) won't have to choose between having our enjoyment reduced by knowing little clues in advance and opting out - not reading or engaging here at all.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    Libitina wrote: »
    Why is it deemed ok to show women slapping men??

    To be honest, I get really annoyed by this nonsense about slapping being bad. Women slapping men has been a staple of film and TV since there has been film and TV. It isn't delivered strongly enough to cause anything more than startlement. It is designed to shock, to register strong disapproval and equating it to phyiscal violence or abuse is just ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. PC gone mad.

    As for why it's only women it's just because women are generally not considered to be strong enough to cause any harm to a man with a slap. If the woman was a 6 foot body-builder and the man was a 5 foot weed then it might look a bit suss but, in general, there can be no misapprehension that the blow would cause any kind of lasting damage.
    Hmmm , can't say I enjoyed it .

    and where's all this stuff about him not being a good man coming from ? the last 2 Smith episodes were very heroic and positive , and why is Clara not sure either ?

    its like there's been a new show-runner taking over and he's rebooted the characters and story , except that it's the same show-runner .
    .

    I think there have been a number of occasions where past seasons have shown a darker side of the Doctor. The first Dalek story in season 1 being a case in point where his hatred of the Daleks was highlighted by the Dalek as something that would make him a "good Dalek". The same sentiment mentioned in this episode.

    A running theme of new Who has been that the Doctor often needs the companion to keep him morally grounded and remind him to take his head out of the "big picture" and have a bit more compassion or empathy for those around him. It's not really an idea that I like very much as I prefer the Doctor to be a hero without all these moral ambiguities but, logically, I can understand how spending a thousand years under siege could change him for the worse.
    Wins an award for most aggressive Daleks since 2005 - then loses it for the most vulnerable Daleks ever.

    Seriously - three Daleks can conquer a planet but an entire fleet of them can be stopped by one Dalek with PMT?

    Why doesn't the rest of the universe just copy one Dalek gun if that's all it takes to get past all of their defences? Why are we still shooting bullets when a quick zap of Dalek woteva kills all known Daleks dead within seconds?

    Dalek guns have always been capable of blowing up other Daleks although it looked like Rusty's gun was a more suped-up heavy-weapon version. I think it was just the element of surprise. Another Dalek attacking them was illogical and would have confused their computer-like brains causing them to hesitate in confusion.
    The_Judge_ wrote: »
    OK, this is a long one ....
    So - in many ways it had similarities to many previous episodes of Doctor Who (like Dalek with Eccleston), and also didn't Ian and Susan get shrunk once?

    Yes, in Planet of Giants, the TARDIS landed in a miniaturised state and the Doctor, Ian and Susan were similarly miniaturised fighting flies and stuff!

    It was more reminiscent of the Tom Baker and Leela adventure, The Invisible Enemy, in which clones of the Doctor and Leela were injected into the Doctor's body where they travelled to his brain to find and fight a sentient virus creature that was attacking him.
    Talma wrote: »
    After the start I was really hoping it was going to be a Clara-less episode, but unfortunately not. She really is the '21st century companion by numbers'. Sassy and engagingly bouncy but not particularly bright or sensitive - at work if you saw a new colleague in obvious distress would you start making personal remarks in a chirpy intrusive manner? - speaks in one liners and can miraculously know exactly what buttons to push (literally) whilst being stuck inside a homicidal alien. Then all that matters is her date with the new man. It's almost as if she treats the Doctor as her own personal taxi driver.
    She served her purpose by being last year's most important person in the universe, now she's really starting to annoy me>:(

    Completely disagree with this assessment of Clara. Not Bright? She's probably one of the brightest companions he's ever had. She is constantly thinking of or being key to the solution in almost every episode she's ever been in. She has demonstrated that she is extremely intelligent and observant. Almost super-humanly so.

    I don't buy that she isn't senstive either. She is often the one to point out the more empathetic solution to the Doctor and to call the Doctor up on his own insensitivity.

    People seem to be annoyed that that she doesn't end every episode being suitably traumatised and subdued but I would suggest that no companion has ever evidenced that behaviour until the point where they decide to leave the TARDIS (Victoria and Tegan being prime examples). Nobody would travel with the Doctor if they let that stuff get to them.

    Positivity and humour is not a crime and, personally, I'm loving it.
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    Thrombin wrote: »
    Completely disagree with this assessment of Clara. Not Bright? She's probably one of the brightest companions he's ever had. She is constantly thinking of or being key to the solution in almost every episode she's ever been in. She has demonstrated that she is extremely intelligent and observant. Almost super-humanly so.

    Don't forget that she was "altered" in Bells of St John. We know she gained IT expertise - it's at least possible that more happened and your "superhuman" observation could be spot-on.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    Dan-Bevis wrote: »
    An interesting look into The Doctor's psyche. His prejudice of Daleks is totally understandable. But his look on soldiers is bordering on hypocritical, are his companions not that to him really?
    Shrimps wrote: »
    I agree. The Doctor once had a chance to prevent the Daleks from existing long ago and didn't take it in time. How many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of soldiers came into being just to fight them? I'm not saying he should constantly blame himself - Mopey Ten was unbearable enough - but he should at least try to understand. The Doctor can't always be there (and frequently isn't) so innocent people should just roll over and die?

    I know people really want a 'dark' Doctor, but charmless hypocrite is not a nice person to spend time with. After Rose, I'm more than happy that the Doctor 'is not your boyfriend' but if he's not your friend, that's another matter...
    This was the worst part of the episode for me too. I understand that after a thousand years of siege he might end up a darker individual and I know that he has always professed to dislike the military approach to things but such disrespect for soldiers putting their lives on the line to defend their civilization from ruthless aggressors makes no sense and is bordering on offensive. I suspect that it's part of an arc where he will doubtless change his mind and become more accepting (presumably this Danny character will be travelling with him before too long) but, right now, it compromises what used to be a fundamental part of the Doctor. He may be an alien and sometimes he may be too caught up in the big picture to show the right form of empathy but his hearts have always been in the right place no matter what incarnation he was in. Right now he's veering too far into being a Doctor I can't respect and that's worrying.
    Amyy. wrote: »
    The main space stuff with the Dalek just felt like a plot device to change Clara’s opinion of soldiers so she can get it on with Mr Pink…
    Clara never had a problem with soldiers. If there is a plot device it is to introduce an arc whereby the Doctor's opinion of soldiers changes, not Clara's.
    claire2281 wrote: »
    One thing that slightly bemuses me was the idea of can there be a good Dalek was crucial to the episode and the Doctor's understanding of it. Yet he KNOWS there can be because he met Oswin. He doesn't know how she did it but she managed to keep her humanity through conversion so why is he being so stupidly stubborn about the idea to the point where Clara has to push him into seeing it? It just didn't look very bright of him! He may wonder how it's possible but to keep insisting it's impossible without reference to that felt slack.
    This surprised me too. Not because of Oswin as she was the Impossible Girl so the impossibility of a Dalek becoming good wouldn't be an issue! However, way back in Troughton's story Evil of the Daleks there were a group of Daleks being deliberately manufactured to be good by introducing the "human factor" to them. Eventually they rebelled against the other Daleks and started a civil war in which the Dalek Emperor and the entire Dalek complex was destroyed. So, yes, there has been enough precedent to make his belief that it was impossible rather odd.
    The_Judge_ wrote: »
    Shame the sonic resorted back to type :(
    Actually, I thought welding was something quite reasonable for a sonic device. After all, heat is just a question of exciting/vibrating the molecules of a substance and that's the sort of thing I'd expect a sonic device to be able to do.
    Si_Crewe wrote: »
    At one point DW is prattling on about how they were stood next to some kind of auxiliary brain-thing, and that although daleks are created hating everything, once they get hooked into this doodad it will eradicate any last trace of doubt and ensure the dalek is filled with hate.

    So, erm, anybody check the fuse in that thing?

    Yes, I didn't really understand why they didn't try to sabotage the auxiliary brain thingy given that it was specifically designed to keep the Dalek as Evil as possible. When it turned Evil again you would have thought it would have been a prime target!
    How did Clara know all she needed to do was climb over some pipes to restore the Daleks memory?
    Clara had superior computer knowledge/hacking skills downloaded into her during The Bells of St John and one of her splinters spent time as a Dalek hooked into the Dalek computer network so Clara was probably the best qualified of anyone to be able to work out how to get the job done.

    Having said that, disconnecting/reconnecting memories is highly unlikely to have been achieved by physical cables and much more likely to have been achieved simply through software and non-physical data storage. I guess it comes down to artistic license!
    peteblue wrote: »
    Matt Smith's Doctor did include a lot of comedy and Childish moments that's why I didn't like him as the Time Lord. I think Peter Capaldi's Doctor will play it more straight more like William Hartnell Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker did. Also the stories will take a more darker and sinister tone,

    Actually Tom Baker had some pretty childish moments too!
  • lady_xanaxlady_xanax Posts: 5,662
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    Thrombin wrote: »
    To be honest, I get really annoyed by this nonsense about slapping being bad. Women slapping men has been a staple of film and TV since there has been film and TV. It isn't delivered strongly enough to cause anything more than startlement. It is designed to shock, to register strong disapproval and equating it to phyiscal violence or abuse is just ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. PC gone mad.

    I see your point but there were many, er, staples of film and TV of yesteryear that we would rather forget. Just because something has been around for years, that doesn't make it good.

    Well, it is physical violence. Hitting somebody is physical violence, particularly as the person in question is doing it in order to provoke a reaction and therefore intends it to be at least strong enough for a shock. You can't carefully measure how hard a slap will hurt or how hurt (emotionally as well as physically) the receiver will be.

    It is indeed a staple of some genres- melodramas and soaps- but surely you wouldn't consider it a staple of a family sci-fi show?

    And 'PC' doesn't mean anything as a term. Slapping people has got nothing to do with politics; it's people's personal beliefs. It's not that people's real feelings are being suppressed now; it's that people's feelings were suppressed back then.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    lady_xanax wrote: »
    Well, it is physical violence. Hitting somebody is physical violence, particularly as the person in question is doing it in order to provoke a reaction and therefore intends it to be at least strong enough for a shock. You can't carefully measure how hard a slap will hurt or how hurt (emotionally as well as physically) the receiver will be.

    I think you can easily measure how hard it will be (at least to the point where you don't do damage) and, if you know the person, you will know how he will take it emotionally too.

    The way I see it, if you broaden the definition to considering a slap like that as violence then smacking your kids for being naughty is violence, pinching people in jest is violence, giving your firend a dead arm or engaging in play fighting is violence.

    There comes a point when lumping all such things together and applying the same level of censure to them is misleading and counter-productive. There is physical abuse and violence which is unacceptabe but there are plenty of other things that have no right being grouped into the same category whatever the dictionary definition might say. The kind of slap we are talking about here is one of those things, IMO.
    It is indeed a staple of some genres- melodramas and soaps- but surely you wouldn't consider it a staple of a family sci-fi show?

    It's been a staple of Doctor Who for some time and I have no problem with it in a family sci-fi show because I just consider it a piece of comedy. Slap-stick, if you will :D
    And 'PC' doesn't mean anything as a term. Slapping people has got nothing to do with politics; it's people's personal beliefs. It's not that people's real feelings are being suppressed now; it's that people's feelings were suppressed back then.

    PC, to me, is just over-sensitivity to an issue for the sake of appearances. Generally without regard to the reality of the situation. In reality the Doctor often needs a short sharp shock to bring him down to reality and regain focus or to bring home to him that he is out of order. A slap is the perfect way to do this. There is no damage, no significant pain, no campaign of bullying or persecution. The objection to it is, to my mind, completely unfounded. I find the slapping funny and enjoyable and have no problem with it at all.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    sonic157 wrote: »
    i don't think it has anything to do with accents. The sound on BBC 1 HD and BBC Three HD is incredibly bad for films, some worse than others. I have to turn it up much higher and it's still muffled. I did what someone oh here recommended and used subtitles for the repeat on BBC Three last night. I did manage to watch to the end this time but poor sound doesn't help when you're finding an episode less engaging than usual!

    Seriously, the BBC needs to look into this. There was a furore about Jamaica Inn earlier this year when the accents were particularly incomprehensible.

    Personally, I think it must be to do with people's sound systems. I have never had a problem with the sound of any programme I have ever watched on mine. Although, I suppose it might also depend on the broadcaster. I receive mine via Satelite over Sky but I guess Freeview or Virgin might use different bandwidths for their sound.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    I was surprised that Clara didn't mention anything about having been inside a dalek before .

    whats the deal with her memories of all that anyway ? I'm assuming they're vague but would think that something so specific would trigger her memories .

    She wasn't exactly inside a Dalek she was a Dalek and, during that time, she was in denial living in a dream world where she thought she was in her space ship. I don't think she would have necessarily had any knowledge of what the inside of a Dalek looks like any more than you would automatically have intimate knowledge of what your own insides look like!
  • doctor blue boxdoctor blue box Posts: 7,254
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    ZOMG THAT'S TWICE NOW MOFFETT HASNT SHOWED US THA CHARACTERZ GETTIN OUT OV SOMEWHERE. SACK HIM NOW!!!

    Or something along those lines, but it does worry me that some people need everything showing on screen when the answer wasn't quite as impossible as some seem to think it was. The whole timestream thing in TNotD had a similar response from certain fans. They just left! :)
    Something which is a minor point within an episode which has already had the groundwork laid for it, such as how they got out of the dalek is completely different from something like the time stream thing where it was implied there was no way out and as such seemed presented to many of us as some cliffhanger to be resolved in the next episode.

    Not every single detail of everything need's to be laid out and intricately explained in detail but I find it annoying when people who support Moffat no matter what use a person complaining about something minor to compare that with people who complain when Moffat leaves something major hanging or without explanation.
  • ThrombinThrombin Posts: 9,416
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    The way I see it (and I'm not as fanatical as some of you loons on here ;) so I may be wrong feel free to correct me )

    Is that while the splinters were all Clara they were in turn people in their own right as well who have no knowledge of each other existent and Clara whilst she was "aware" of what she did (splintering herself ) she also have no idea of what happened to each splinter
    Shrimps wrote: »
    I don't think she's meant to remember much of what her splinters went through. In the narration of 'Name' she did say that she didn't know where she was and all she remembered was that she had to save the Doctor. Nothing about having her species violently changed/needing wheels to move around. What she should remember is 'Day'. Eleven, Ten and the War Doctor's plan for the Daleks and their own species makes Twelve's actions seem tame.

    I disagree. I think it was made clear when Clara was inside the Time Stream and saw the War Doctor that she had knowledge of all of the Doctor's incarnations to the extent that she could express surprise that she had never seen this other guy. That implies that, at least at that point, she could access the memories of all of her splinters.
    Joe_Zel wrote: »
    But Oswin inside of the Dalek was not Clara. It is a part of her from when she was split in the Doctor's timeline like the Victoria woman from The Snowmen, but they are not her in the future. They are all separate entities.

    Yes, in fact it is arguable that they no longer exist at all as, after the Doctor failed to die on Trenzalore, his tomb would no longer have been on Trenzalore and there would have been no after-image of the Doctor's timeline available for Clara or the GI to splinter themsevels in. While Clara, as she was out of her own timestream when it happened, may still have the memories of the timeline before it was rewritten (and of her splinters in that timeline), the timeline as it stands now should not include any splinters. None of those events should now have happened at all.

    Of course that means that the Paternoster gang should have forgotten all about it too as none of the events they experienced with Clara should now be part of the timeline but I think the story has tied itself in enough knots already. Trying to make sense of it would be pretty nigh impossible at this point!
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