Why does the Orange Lodge have twice the SNP membership?

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  • onecitizenonecitizen Posts: 5,042
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    Sun Tzu. wrote: »
    Why is it any surprise?

    I am surprised that the Tories have slightly less than half the membership of SNP. I thought the gap would be bigger.
  • barky99barky99 Posts: 3,921
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    onecitizen wrote: »
    I am surprised that the Tories have slightly less than half the membership of SNP. I thought the gap would be bigger.
    strongly suspect Tory membership in Scotland will be lower than these claims especially if you take into account that combined Tory/Labour/LibDem membership is lower than current SNP membership .... Labour party membership must be far larger than Tory?
  • OrriOrri Posts: 9,470
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    Auld Snody wrote: »
    I-am surprised as to where you think you are going with this?

    I'm not. It's an attempt to raise the threat of terrorism in a independent Scotland. However even the quote of that by a representative of the Orange order used to underline that threat seems to be unlikely.

    The main condition seems to be a threat to protestantism, which given that those giving Church of Scotland as their denomination is twice as high as those giving Catholic isn't going to happen. The main avowed aim of the Orange Order is not the imposition of any form of worship.

    The second condition is having the Queen as Head of State, and independent Scotland that is part of the British Commonwealth poses no immediate threat to that. In fact the refusal to deal with the House of Lords in the UK is more likely to an increase in small r republican sentiment so an independent Scotland might be more loyal to the queen than one that is part of the UK.

    The third is a political affiliation which might partly explain the decline of OO membership around the time of the last General Election. The harsh reality of what the Conservative and Unionist Party means to people in Scotland and the UK in general might have been a wake up call to some.

    However the main thing to remember is that this is the self reported membership who want to influence the public.
  • Auld SnodyAuld Snody Posts: 15,171
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    Orri wrote: »
    I'm not. It's an attempt to raise the threat of terrorism in a independent Scotland. However even the quote of that by a representative of the Orange order used to underline that threat seems to be unlikely.

    The main condition seems to be a threat to protestantism, which given that those giving Church of Scotland as their denomination is twice as high as those giving Catholic isn't going to happen. The main avowed aim of the Orange Order is not the imposition of any form of worship.

    The second condition is having the Queen as Head of State, and independent Scotland that is part of the British Commonwealth poses no immediate threat to that. In fact the refusal to deal with the House of Lords in the UK is more likely to an increase in small r republican sentiment so an independent Scotland might be more loyal to the queen than one that is part of the UK.

    The third is a political affiliation which might partly explain the decline of OO membership around the time of the last General Election. The harsh reality of what the Conservative and Unionist Party means to people in Scotland and the UK in general might have been a wake up call to some.

    However the main thing to remember is that this is the self reported membership who want to influence the public.
    So we can consider that gun well and truly spiked.
  • OrriOrri Posts: 9,470
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    Auld Snody wrote: »
    So we can consider that gun well and truly spiked.

    Given the repetition of other themes I wouldn't depend on it. Besides which independence for Scotland on the principle of self-determination actually supports the right of Northern Ireland to it's continued existence. It certainly undermines the idea that somehow a unitary state has to exist in Great Britain and by extension Ireland.
  • onecitizenonecitizen Posts: 5,042
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    I think it's very unfair to try and associate the orange order with terrorism as some people have tried to do in the posts prior to this one. They do good work for charity.http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/charity.html
  • anndra_wanndra_w Posts: 6,557
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    onecitizen wrote: »
    I think it's very unfair to try and associate the orange order with terrorism as some people have tried to do in the posts prior to this one. They do good work for charity.http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/charity.html

    How much contact do you have with the Orange Lodge? I have had dealings with many of these people and some of them can show a kind side at times but make no mistake, they are bigots and they are a problem in our society. They are motivated by hate not spirituality.
  • getzlsgetzls Posts: 4,007
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    anndra_w wrote: »
    they are a problem in our society. are .

    Explain a wee bit more, in what why are they a problem?

    They are mainly a Religious based group these days.
  • Fiddly_FeltzFiddly_Feltz Posts: 645
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    It's because the SNP is a political party that most Scots have very little time for. The Orange Order membership is handed down through generations. Who you are is hard wired!
  • barky99barky99 Posts: 3,921
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    It's because the SNP is a political party that most Scots have very little time for. The Orange Order membership is handed down through generations. Who you are is hard wired!
    so ... Scots have little time for the political party with most members & there is no free will to decide if you want to be part of a religious group or not .... Hmmmm
  • Fiddly_FeltzFiddly_Feltz Posts: 645
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    barky99 wrote: »
    so ... Scots have little time for the political party with most members & there is no free will to decide if you want to be part of a religious group or not .... Hmmmm

    The membership of any one political party is irrelevant. I can vote for and support/agree with the party of my choice but not beome a member. When you're born in to a particular group of individuals it's a lifestyle.

    If you think the Orange Order is all about religion ask a few people who are in it. Gone are the days when they were all churchgoers.
  • Black HughBlack Hugh Posts: 1,070
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    getzls wrote: »
    Explain a wee bit more, in what why are they a problem?

    They are mainly a Religious based group these days.

    :an Orange order chaplain, Mervyn Gibson, was at the Hass talks with the DUP. The same man willing to share platforms with alleged Loyalist paramilitaries.

    Also, it was the OO who facilitated the unity candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone at the recent election.

    The Order are a political organisation and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous.
  • Black HughBlack Hugh Posts: 1,070
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    getzls wrote: »
    At least its not at their members funerals now

    Over 300 were murdered by the IRA during the troubles.

    Some of them Loyalist paramilitaries for whom no tears need to be shed.
  • getzlsgetzls Posts: 4,007
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    Black Hugh wrote: »
    Some of them Loyalist paramilitaries for whom no tears need to be shed.
    Some? Care to name them?

    Most were off duty security, doing their duty.

    How about the ones murdered in the Tullyallen attack, how many of these elderly men, one aged 80 were terrorists to you?

    Usual black propaganda from the IRA/Sinn Fein supporters.
  • getzlsgetzls Posts: 4,007
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    Black Hugh wrote: »
    :an Orange order chaplain, Mervyn Gibson, was at the Hass talks with the DUP. The same man willing to share platforms with alleged Loyalist paramilitaries.

    Also, it was the OO who facilitated the unity candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone at the recent election.

    The Order are a political organisation and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

    Fermanagh and south tyrone had at one time an IRA man as the M.P.

    The Unionists did not.

    Just exactly who on the Republican side is now talking to Hass?

    Yes, the IRA
  • anndra_wanndra_w Posts: 6,557
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    getzls wrote: »
    Explain a wee bit more, in what why are they a problem?

    They are mainly a Religious based group these days.

    They are a prejudiced group who are anti-Catholic and that is not acceptable in modern Scotland. We are trying to put the past to the bed but groups like the OO keep the fires of hate burning.
  • Black HughBlack Hugh Posts: 1,070
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    getzls wrote: »
    Some? Care to name them?

    Most were off duty security, doing their duty.

    How about the ones murdered in the Tullyallen attack, how many of these elderly men, one aged 80 were terrorists to you?

    Usual black propaganda from the IRA/Sinn Fein supporters.

    John Bingham, Robert Bates, Brian Robinson. The latter paramilitary member still honoured on an Orange banner. There are of course other Loyalist paramilitaries known to have been in the Order. LVF child murderer Norman Coopey being another one.

    Of course I said some, not all. So save me your cries of being an apologist. I cried no tears at Loughall either. The majority of the 300 were innocent men murdered. But certainly not all
  • Black HughBlack Hugh Posts: 1,070
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    getzls wrote: »
    Fermanagh and south tyrone had at one time an IRA man as the M.P.

    The Unionists did not.

    Just exactly who on the Republican side is now talking to Hass?

    Yes, the IRA

    You said the Order was a religious organisation. I simply pointed out that they are also a political organisation. I can understand your confusion as the Order seems confused as well;-)
  • Sun Tzu.Sun Tzu. Posts: 19,064
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    Phil 2804 wrote: »
    Loyalists tried to bomb the catholic community into accepting defacto apartheid on British soil. It was loyalist paramilitaries who shed the first blood killing an elderly woman (protestant no less) when they firebombed the mainly catholic pub she lived next door to. It was protestant leaders who refused to share power with catholic leaders in the 1970s, bringing the province to a complete standstill with a general strike, thus forcing the closure of Stormont until the Good Friday agreement.

    The were also the first ones to shed blood outside NI. The bombings on civilian targets in Dublin remain the single worst atrocities of the entire period. The death toll in just one day exceeded even the Omagh bombing.
    And there was me thinking this has been going on for hundreds of years. The conflict didn't start in the 60s. And my point still stands, the PIRA weren't about civil rights for ANYONE.

    Go look at the black book of the PIRA. Evil murderous cowardly scum.
  • VoynichVoynich Posts: 14,481
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    We really don't need this issue to be to sectarian. It's a bit more important than catholic vs protestant.
  • getzlsgetzls Posts: 4,007
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    Black Hugh wrote: »
    John Bingham, Robert Bates, Brian Robinson. The latter paramilitary member still honoured on an Orange banner. There are of course other Loyalist paramilitaries known to have been in the Order. LVF child murderer Norman Coopey being another one.

    Of course I said some, not all. So save me your cries of being an apologist. I cried no tears at Loughall either. The majority of the 300 were innocent men murdered. But certainly not all

    Is Brian Robinson not on a banner/ drum? belonging to a flute band?
    Can't say I know.

    I have no love for the O O but Republicans do have a thing about murdering them.

    Any Loyalist who was killed because they were combatants were fair game same as Sinn Fein
  • getzlsgetzls Posts: 4,007
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    anndra_w wrote: »
    They are a prejudiced group who are anti-Catholic and that is not acceptable in modern Scotland. We are trying to put the past to the bed but groups like the OO keep the fires of hate burning.

    Well you can say the RC church is anti Protestant.

    Or the A.O.H. or the Foresters are a prejudiced group.

    No, the O O do not stand in elections. Sinn Fein do
  • anndra_wanndra_w Posts: 6,557
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    getzls wrote: »
    Well you can say the RC church is anti Protestant.

    Or the A.O.H. or the Foresters are a prejudiced group.

    No, the O O do not stand in elections. Sinn Fein do

    You can say whatever you like but no one's listening except for the misfits still tied to that organisation. Society is moving. Thank Jesus, Our Lady, Allah or whoever you like.
  • OrriOrri Posts: 9,470
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    onecitizen wrote: »
    I think it's very unfair to try and associate the orange order with terrorism as some people have tried to do in the posts prior to this one. They do good work for charity.http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/charity.html

    Then I would have to ask what the point in comparing membership numbers was when the political party the OO aligns itself with has far fewer members in Scotland and far less electoral success.
    The implication of terrorism came from a quote made by a representative of the OO made in 2001. The fact that he instantly withdrew it not withstanding.
    As far as that goes the situation in NI was one where the perception was of a unified island dominated by the Catholic church. These days the standing of that church in the RoI has been majorly undermined by a long list of scandals so isn't as big threat as it once was, never mind that the IRA was an allegedly Marxist organisation and would only achieve its aims by force of arms over the whole of Ireland.
    To repeat, such a threat to the right to worship freely as a protestant or any other faith where such worship does not impose on the same right of others is not going to happen in an independent Scotland. The restrictions placed on the CoE regarding same sex marriages is incompatible with religious freedom, those of that faith should be free to decide as a body how their church should evolve.
  • onecitizenonecitizen Posts: 5,042
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    anndra_w wrote: »
    How much contact do you have with the Orange Lodge? I have had dealings with many of these people and some of them can show a kind side at times but make no mistake, they are bigots and they are a problem in our society. They are motivated by hate not spirituality.

    Isn't your own attitude a little intolerant?
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