I take a very weird mix of medications for a range of permanent maladies. I know, for a fact, that people out there in the same situation have stopped working. I even know of a specific case where someone's spouse has stopped working as well and is claiming carers allowance !
I am 100℅ not saying that there should be no benefit system. I fully appreciate that there are many out there who desperately need support for visible and invisible issues.
However there is a percentage of claimants who could (and should) be out working. Their claims coat the country money. Investigations cost the country money. Both cost the workers invokved TIME.
The benefits system is a great thing and is vital for a lot of people. Is it not a shame that a percentage of people (regardless of the actual figure) take time and funding away from those who genuinely need it ?
Two people with the same medical condition do not necessarily have the exact same severity of that condition and the exact same symptoms and exact same medications and have the exact same side effects of any medication, and exact same response to treatment, etc.
It is possible for two people to have the same medical condition and one be fit for work the other so debilitated that they need personal care or hospitalization.
And what they tell friends, relatives, neighbours and what other people assume about their personal medical problems may not be the same as the actual situation and what their doctor, specialist, and DWP are aware of.
While there are some people who abuse the disability benefits system unless someone is aware of all the facts its common for people to jump to the wrong conclusion as to if someone is genuine or abusing the benefits system.
And I don't. However that doesn't mean that the sick or disabled who are capable of working should be excused the responsibility of trying to find suitable work.
I take a very weird mix of medications for a range of permanent maladies. I know, for a fact, that people out there in the same situation have stopped working. I even know of a specific case where someone's spouse has stopped working as well and is claiming carers allowance !
I am 100℅ not saying that there should be no benefit system. I fully appreciate that there are many out there who desperately need support for visible and invisible issues.
However there is a percentage of claimants who could (and should) be out working. Their claims coat the country money. Investigations cost the country money. Both cost the workers invokved TIME.
The benefits system is a great thing and is vital for a lot of people. Is it not a shame that a percentage of people (regardless of the actual figure) take time and funding away from those who genuinely need it ?
No two people with the same maladies and medication are going to be affected in exactly the same way. One may be able to work and the other not. It is worth bearing in mind that some people encounter more side effects with medication than others and this might make the difference as to whether someone is capable of working. One of the common mistakes in applying for ESA and PIP is not to mention the impact of medication as well as the health condition itself.
Based on my experience there are some people with health conditions or disabilities who could work but resist the suggestion by trying to appeal DWP decisions on benefits. As I posted earlier, some of these really believe that they cannot work and have become "institutionalised" by their health, some cannot contemplate doing any kind of different work than they are used to and some who simply don't want to work and hide behind their health issues in order to avoid it.
However, I must say that my experience is that I see considerably fewer people in this category than I do those who are clearly not able to work but have been denied benefit because the "tick box" descriptor nature of the assessment process fails to identify the reality of their situation.
No two people with the same maladies and medication are going to be affected in exactly the same way. One may be able to work and the other not. It is worth bearing in mind that some people encounter more side effects with medication than others and this might make the difference as to whether someone is capable of working. One of the common mistakes in applying for ESA and PIP is not to mention the impact of medication as well as the health condition itself.
Based on my experience there are some people with health conditions or disabilities who could work but resist the suggestion by trying to appeal DWP decisions on benefits. As I posted earlier, some of these really believe that they cannot work and have become "institutionalised" by their health, some cannot contemplate doing any kind of different work than they are used to and some who simply don't want to work and hide behind their health issues in order to avoid it.
However, I must say that my experience is that I see considerably fewer people in this category than I do those who are clearly not able to work but have been denied benefit because the "tick box" descriptor nature of the assessment process fails to identify the reality of their situation.
How do you know someone who does not want to work because they believe they are not capable of working is not correct in their assessment of themself?
Surely it is best left to those qualified to diagnose, treat and give a prognosis to advise as to what someone maybe capable of doing and to advise people as to what they should and should not attempt to do. Because anyone else is judging someone's capability from a position of being unqualified and ignorant of all the facts. Unless it is a case of blatant benefit fraud they claim they are bedridden but are playing rugby.
How do you know someone who does not want to work because they believe they are not capable of working is not correct in their assessment of themselves?
Surely it is best left to those qualified to diagnose, treat and give a prognosis to advise as to what someone maybe capable of doing and to advise people as to what they should and should not attempt to do. Because anyone else is judging someone's capability from a position of being unqualified and ignorant of all the facts. Unless it is a case of blatant benefit fraud they claim they are bedridden but are playing rugby.
Of course it's the role of a professional to make a judgement about what the individual should or should not do although as you explained so well upthread, benefit decisions are often not made by such fully qualified professionals.
However, this does not mean that I cannot express an opinion based on my experience of working with benefit claimants. I have never knowingly seen a blatant benefit fraudster such as you describe. However, I have seen a few people desperately struggling to make a case to justify their claim for ESA. On rare occasions they have to be told that an appeal is (sometimes literally) "pointless".
Of course it's the role of a professional to make a judgement about what the individual should or should not do although as you explained so well upthread, benefit decisions are often not made by such fully qualified professionals.
However, this does not mean that I cannot express an opinion based on my experience of working with benefit claimants. I have never knowingly seen a blatant benefit fraudster such as you describe. However, I have seen a few people desperately struggling to make a case to justify their claim for ESA. On rare occasions they have to be told that an appeal is (sometimes literally) "pointless".
But there are only two groups on ESA, the support group who are exempt from looking for work or having any dealings with the job center as are deemed incapable of work, then there is the WRAG group which are deemed as having limited work capabilities, anyone else is on JSA and deemed as fit for work with no limited work capabilities. So the system has already said that the people in the WRAG group have limited work capabilities and must deal with the job center to help them into work
But there are only two groups on ESA, the support group who are exempt from looking for work or having any dealings with the job center as are deemed incapable of work, then there is the WRAG group which are deemed as having limited work capabilities, anyone else is on JSA and deemed as fit for work with no limited work capabilities. So the system has already said that the people in the WRAG group have limited work capabilities and must deal with the job center to help them into work
ESA WRAG are deemed currently incapable of paid employment and do not have to seek paid employment and cannot be required to undertake paid employment or apply for or seek paid employment. They are only deemed capable of appropiate work related activities. The minimum in theory is attending work focused interviews and I think attending can be waived at the discretion of the adviser. The maximum is whatever appropriate work related activities they are told to do. I think unpaid work placements can be done but are voluntary.
JSA is for people capable of paid employment including those capable of only limited forms of paid employment due to limited capability due to disability or illness. The type of paid employment sought can be limited on grounds of disability or illness without a minimum threshold so they can be seeking a job that in reality does not exist. Job seeking activities can also be limited on grounds of disability or illness although they must be doing at least one thing towards seeking employment to qualify for JSA. Someone on JSA I believe can only do nothing towards seeking paid employment for a maximum of 2 consecutive weeks due to being unwell sick, and 2 weeks each year holiday.
But there are only two groups on ESA, the support group who are exempt from looking for work or having any dealings with the job center as are deemed incapable of work, then there is the WRAG group which are deemed as having limited work capabilities, anyone else is on JSA and deemed as fit for work with no limited work capabilities. So the system has already said that the people in the WRAG group have limited work capabilities and must deal with the job center to help them into work
I'm not sure what point you are making.
For most of the people I see, the system has said that they should be in the WRAG group and the claimant thinks that they should be in the Support group or the system has said that the claimant does not qualify for ESA at all and they want to challenge the decision.
ESA WRAG are deemed currently incapable of paid employment and do not have to seek paid employment and cannot be required to undertake paid employment or apply for or seek paid employment. They are only deemed capable of appropiate work related activities. The minimum in theory is attending work focused interviews and I think attending can be waived at the discretion of the adviser. The maximum is whatever appropriate work related activities they are told to do. I think unpaid work placements can be done but are voluntary.
JSA is for people capable of paid employment including those capable of only limited forms of paid employment due to limited capability due to disability or illness. The type of paid employment sought can be limited on grounds of disability or illness without a minimum threshold so they can be seeking a job that in reality does not exist. Job seeking activities can also be limited on grounds of disability or illness although they must be doing at least one thing towards seeking employment to qualify for JSA. Someone on JSA I believe can only do nothing towards seeking paid employment for a maximum of 2 consecutive weeks due to being unwell sick, and 2 weeks each year holiday.
I take a very weird mix of medications for a range of permanent maladies. I know, for a fact, that people out there in the same situation have stopped working. I even know of a specific case where someone's spouse has stopped working as well and is claiming carers allowance !
I am 100℅ not saying that there should be no benefit system. I fully appreciate that there are many out there who desperately need support for visible and invisible issues.
However there is a percentage of claimants who could (and should) be out working. Their claims coat the country money. Investigations cost the country money. Both cost the workers invokved TIME.
The benefits system is a great thing and is vital for a lot of people. Is it not a shame that a percentage of people (regardless of the actual figure) take time and funding away from those who genuinely need it ?
All very well saying more sick and disabled people should work, when the reality is not enough employers are willing to take them on.
Comments
It is possible for two people to have the same medical condition and one be fit for work the other so debilitated that they need personal care or hospitalization.
And what they tell friends, relatives, neighbours and what other people assume about their personal medical problems may not be the same as the actual situation and what their doctor, specialist, and DWP are aware of.
While there are some people who abuse the disability benefits system unless someone is aware of all the facts its common for people to jump to the wrong conclusion as to if someone is genuine or abusing the benefits system.
Well the government have not had much success of getting people in the WRAG group into work, because they have limited working capabilities, people in the support group as classed as unfit to work and unlikely ever to be able to do work, and the ones in the WRAG group do have to work with the job centers to help to get into work. The thing is employers dont mind when the government gives them free labour at no cost to them, but employ and pay someone with a long term illness or disability is a different kettle of fish, as the work programme proved. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwikrInAmNzOAhWLCcAKHQ1mAXYQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welfareweekly.com%2Fwork-programme-waste-time-long-term-sickness-benefit-claimants%2F&usg=AFQjCNGqT3VTxLQbqzUvY8wyToQ-sL5PgQ
No two people with the same maladies and medication are going to be affected in exactly the same way. One may be able to work and the other not. It is worth bearing in mind that some people encounter more side effects with medication than others and this might make the difference as to whether someone is capable of working. One of the common mistakes in applying for ESA and PIP is not to mention the impact of medication as well as the health condition itself.
Based on my experience there are some people with health conditions or disabilities who could work but resist the suggestion by trying to appeal DWP decisions on benefits. As I posted earlier, some of these really believe that they cannot work and have become "institutionalised" by their health, some cannot contemplate doing any kind of different work than they are used to and some who simply don't want to work and hide behind their health issues in order to avoid it.
However, I must say that my experience is that I see considerably fewer people in this category than I do those who are clearly not able to work but have been denied benefit because the "tick box" descriptor nature of the assessment process fails to identify the reality of their situation.
Surely it is best left to those qualified to diagnose, treat and give a prognosis to advise as to what someone maybe capable of doing and to advise people as to what they should and should not attempt to do. Because anyone else is judging someone's capability from a position of being unqualified and ignorant of all the facts. Unless it is a case of blatant benefit fraud they claim they are bedridden but are playing rugby.
Of course it's the role of a professional to make a judgement about what the individual should or should not do although as you explained so well upthread, benefit decisions are often not made by such fully qualified professionals.
However, this does not mean that I cannot express an opinion based on my experience of working with benefit claimants. I have never knowingly seen a blatant benefit fraudster such as you describe. However, I have seen a few people desperately struggling to make a case to justify their claim for ESA. On rare occasions they have to be told that an appeal is (sometimes literally) "pointless".
But there are only two groups on ESA, the support group who are exempt from looking for work or having any dealings with the job center as are deemed incapable of work, then there is the WRAG group which are deemed as having limited work capabilities, anyone else is on JSA and deemed as fit for work with no limited work capabilities. So the system has already said that the people in the WRAG group have limited work capabilities and must deal with the job center to help them into work
JSA is for people capable of paid employment including those capable of only limited forms of paid employment due to limited capability due to disability or illness. The type of paid employment sought can be limited on grounds of disability or illness without a minimum threshold so they can be seeking a job that in reality does not exist. Job seeking activities can also be limited on grounds of disability or illness although they must be doing at least one thing towards seeking employment to qualify for JSA. Someone on JSA I believe can only do nothing towards seeking paid employment for a maximum of 2 consecutive weeks due to being unwell sick, and 2 weeks each year holiday.
I'm not sure what point you are making.
For most of the people I see, the system has said that they should be in the WRAG group and the claimant thinks that they should be in the Support group or the system has said that the claimant does not qualify for ESA at all and they want to challenge the decision.
Thank you mark for explaining it so plainly