I could elevate myself to the highest pedestal in the world. I could go so high that people would be mere dots below me. And you'd still be bleating whenever people challenge your "opinion".
Nah, I'd be pointing and laughing at Jason the flying chav. They say hot air rises, and you're certainly full of it!
From a quick skim of this thread, I take it that the programme didn't say what the CT-ers wanted it to say. Good to see that a lot of the good old 'forum facts' from back in the day are coming out too.
Too many to go into, but....
...is absolute hogwash. There are thousands of cases of false positives from dogs. Even these dogs.....
A dog reaction is never evidence in itself - It merely points to a place to go and look for evidence. If there is none there, it's because the dogs were wrong....
You're info is from where ? These two dogs have been used in over 200 cases. When they have found evidence of cadaver/blood scent the investigation has led to conviction or recovery of a body. These are highly trained dogs not the sniffer dogs used in the immediate days following Madeleines' disappearance.
'What we should understand with this dog (Eddie) is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that.' - Martin Grime (Eddie & Keela's Trainer
Results in flat 5A (Where the family were staying)
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the couple's bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe
- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, the dog handler commented on the lightness of the scent detected
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)
Vista Mar Villa, Rua das Flores, in which the McCanns lived from 02 July - 09 September 2007
- cadaver odour dog:
* on the soft toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (cadaver odour was detected when the soft toy was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)
- cadaver odour dog:
* on two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY
- cadaver odour dog:
* on a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE
The McCanns rental car (rented 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared)
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot
- cadaver odour dog:
* base of the driver's door
No scents were detected in any of the other 4 properties or belongings inside them or the 9 other cars also checked.
There is no theory in this post. Just facts.
What is interesting is reading news stories about these dogs prior to their involvement in this case. It was all about how amazing they were, how accurate they were, how well trained they were, how invaluable they are. Check them out - in the Sun, Sky news & the Times back in Dec 2005.
can't copy link to the Times story as you have to pay but as a treat -
On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable Timesonline
By Karen McVeigh
December 30, 2005
HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing.
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable.
Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses.
Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963.
Keela's considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.
She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife.
PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."
The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed.
When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."
While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.
Mr Ellis said Keela's "perfect temperament" and enthusiasm made her a great asset. "We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it's quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable."
Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: "Keela's training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often."
Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.
DS usually bin the McCann threads because they invariably descend into the usual tit-for-tat arguments from both "sides" coupled with the usual litany of libellous allegations.
There's no conspiracy as far as DS is concerned - they just got tired of refereeing the slanging matches.
Moneysavinexpert.com is the same.
Both sides are entrenched in their views and nothing is going to change that. I have my views, I will not watch the programme.
But one person's idea of 'neglec't may be different to anothers.
Some people refuse to allow children to leave their garden whilst others are happy to let them play in the street. Are some parents overcautious whilst others do not take enough care. We all make judgments according to circumstances - these judgments may be acceptable to some and unacceptable to others. Who is right? Is there a right? There may be 'boundaries' but these can be very wide.
I don't think I mentioned 'neglect' at all. My point was that just because as a consequence of a decision you make something awful happens it does not absolve you of the fact you made a bad decision.
However, I don't really think it's over cautious to say that 3 children (all under 4, and 2 under 2 - one with a star chart for staying in bed all night) should not be left unsupervised for varying periods of time, but seemingly between 20-30 mins, in an unsecured, unfamiliar buidling out of sight and earshot.
It's not really a stretch to realise that doing that runs a significant risk of 'something' happening. For 3 (or more?) nights they were lucky and nothing (or nothing big did, allowing for the crying) but on the last night something most certainly did.
Whatever happened to Madeliene is due in part to decisions they made - and I imagine whatever the public image says in private they are more than aware of that. Yes, it's harsh and it must be nigh on impossible to live with but absolving because it's hard and impossible doesn't really help, either.
Another brilliant post, dwight k shrute. Everyone should take note of these FACTS.
Yes and a shame the BBC reporters didnt use the programme to show facts and the proof of these facts .It was a p!ss poor programme that said a whole pile of nothing .,
Dont count me in your surmising , I have never left mine in danger of abduction . I will be the first to condemn what the Mc Canns did because they bloody well knew better .They chose to dine and ignored the dangers , of which there were many ( not just abduction ) . And for that reason I will always feel they let their children down very badly .
They got a free ride because they are a nice, cosy, middle class family who have good connections and good PR.
If they were a pair of unemployed parents living on a council estate who popped down the local offie for a carry out of Stella and 20 Bensons they would not have received the same, favourable, fawning press.
Their appearance at Levenson sickened me to the stomach.
You're info is from where ? These two dogs have been used in over 200 cases. When they have found evidence of cadaver/blood scent the investigation has led to conviction or recovery of a body. These are highly trained dogs not the sniffer dogs used in the immediate days following Madeleines' disappearance.
'What we should understand with this dog (Eddie) is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that.' - Martin Grime (Eddie & Keela's Trainer
Results in flat 5A (Where the family were staying)
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the couple's bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe
- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, the dog handler commented on the lightness of the scent detected
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)
Vista Mar Villa, Rua das Flores, in which the McCanns lived from 02 July - 09 September 2007
- cadaver odour dog:
* on the soft toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (cadaver odour was detected when the soft toy was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)
- cadaver odour dog:
* on two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY
- cadaver odour dog:
* on a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE
The McCanns rental car (rented 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared)
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot
- cadaver odour dog:
* base of the driver's door
No scents were detected in any of the other 4 properties or belongings inside them or the 9 other cars also checked.
There is no theory in this post. Just facts.
What is interesting is reading news stories about these dogs prior to their involvement in this case. It was all about how amazing they were, how accurate they were, how well trained they were, how invaluable they are. Check them out - in the Sun, Sky news & the Times back in Dec 2005.
can't copy link to the Times story as you have to pay but as a treat -
On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable Timesonline
By Karen McVeigh
December 30, 2005
HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing.
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable.
Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses.
Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963.
Keela's considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.
She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife.
PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."
The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed.
When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."
While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.
Mr Ellis said Keela's "perfect temperament" and enthusiasm made her a great asset. "We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it's quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable."
Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: "Keela's training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often."
Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.
Excellent post. shame the press/media(UK I may add) dont report things like this about those brilliant dogs now;)
They got a free ride because they are a nice, cosy, middle class family who have good connections and good PR.
If they were a pair of unemployed parents living on a council estate who popped down the local offie for a carry out of Stella and 20 Bensons they would not have received the same, favourable, fawning press.
Their appearance at Levenson sickened me to the stomach.
... and the other two children would have been taken into care
Excellent post. shame the press/media(UK I may add) dont report things like this about those brilliant dogs now;)
I believe there was also some excitement when the dogs detected cadavers in the church until the priest pointed out they frequently had funerals there !
The Portuguese police lost all credibility from the very first week of this investigation,they didn't investigate no further that the parents from the off..by the time they did pull their fingers out and looked further afield any evidence would have gone cold
I believe there was also some excitement when the dogs detected cadavers in the church until the priest pointed out they frequently had funerals there !
If true it shows they were right then...
Reviewing the timeline I can see no mention of the dogs checking the church...where is this info from ? Or is it just a joke ? If so not cool as people will take it is a fact & the muddied waters surrounding this case will just get murkier.
I believe there was also some excitement when the dogs detected cadavers in the church until the priest pointed out they frequently had funerals there !
The Portuguese police lost all credibility from the very first week of this investigation,they didn't investigate no further that the parents from the off..by the time they did pull their fingers out and looked further afield any evidence would have gone cold
Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth.
They didn't really look at the parents at all for 3 or so months.
Mr Murat was the primary focus of the investigation - he was made arguido in a big press storm barely a week or so after the disappearance.
A local family who suddenly acquired a new toddler daughter who looked exactly the same as the one who had just gone missing would stand out like a sore thumb.
It is difficult to think of any scenario that has a happy ending, unfortunately. It has to be remembered that this was a very small, sleepy resort, in the very early season - it was by no means terribly busy or even bustling. Why would an abductor who wanted a child choose such a sleepy resort to stake out as the potential to be spotted is so much higher with less people? Why take a child from such a resort when, fairly obviously, that is going to create a ruckus when there are (sadly) much more vunerable and less easilly missed children to be found elsewhere, why choose a child who already had language skills and understanding?
It's all just baffling.
Maybe they have some member of their extended family who is desperate for a child. We cycle a lot when we're abroad and we go all over the place and you can be miles from anywhere up a long, dusty track and there's a little smallholding. I reckon it would be entirely possible for a child to be raised somewhere very remote with nobody knowing. Some people don't mix and only go out when they really have to.
The evidence of lavish expenses claims and extraordinary financial waste includes paying £93,000 to Martin Grime, the handler of the sniffer dog Eddie, who was charged with the grim task of finding children’s bodies that were supposedly entombed in concrete in the institution, known as ‘the Jersey House of Horrors’, which closed in 1986.
To date the ‘human remains’ that triggered the storm surrounding the case have turned out to be a piece of coconut shell.
Eddie the sniffer dog - the animal that had supposedly found the 'scent of death' in the Portuguese flat where Madeleine McCann disappeared - no longer had a licence for UK police forensic work when Harper started using him in Jersey. Eddie, whose owner, Martin Grime, was paid £93,600 for less than five months' work, triggered the first excavations by barking at a spot where Harper's team then unearthed what was claimed to be part of a child's skull. In fact, as a Kew Gardens expert has now confirmed, it was a piece of coconut shell. [\QUOTE]
Statistics say that unattended toddlers aren't abducted by lonely farmers. Ever.
What statistics do say is that unattended toddlers fall over and suffer fatal head injuries. It's a tragedy that happens many times a year in Britain alone. Preventable tragedies like this are the reason it's illegal to leave children of Madeleine's age alone. Not because they might be abducted.
To clear up the Church search story here is a list of what the dogs checked -
Apartment 5A: The McCanns (28 April - 03 May 2007)
Ocean Club apartment: The McCanns (04 May - 01 July 2007)
Vista Mar Villa: The McCanns (02 July - 09 September 2007)
Apartment 5B: Matthew and Rachael Oldfield
Apartment 5D: Russell O'Brien/Jane Tanner
Apartment 5H: David Payne/Fiona Payne/Dianne Webster
Praia da Luz: The beach area indicated by Danie Krugel, using an iron tool, created by Mark Harrison, that punctures the soil to allow smells to exit.
Praia da Luz: Buildings, abandoned/in construction, ruins, waterways, entrances to sewers, beach, vegetation around the village, including the volcanic rock "Rocha Negra".
Casa Liliana - Robert Murats property
Vehicle 1: Blue Opel Corsa*- hire car (James Gorrod)
Vehicle 2: Fiat Punto (Ralph Eveleigh – Murat's uncle)
Vehicle 3: Peugot 205 (Robert Murat)
Vehicle 4: Renault Scenic - hire car (The McCanns)
Vehicle 5: Skoda Fabia (Michaela Walczuch)
Vehicle 6: Volkswagen Transporter (Jenny Murat)
Vehicle 7: Nissan Patrol (Luís António)
Vehicle 8: Volkswagen Passat (Luís António)
Vehicle 9: Audi A4 (Segei Malinka)
Vehicle 10: Renault Kangoo (Luís António)
I can find no mention of the church search so I would say it is a myth/joke.
Oh no this tread has descended into the usual two sides:
1. People who like to think the McCanns are innocent and that Maddie is still alive
2. People who like to believe the evidence of dogs and the Portuguese police.
I predict this thread will soon be closed as no one is discussing the program anymore.
Sadly for those seeking to undermine the cadaver dog's record, his alerts DID uncover human remains at the Jersey site.
Eddie's job is to detect cadaverine, a substance uniquely associated with human decomposition. To reiterate, the dog does not alert to bones. Nor, to be clear, does he alert to ANYTHING that is not specifically human. He isn't expected to find or distinguish between fresh corpses or old skeletons. He simply alerts to traces of HUMAN cadaverine, a molecule produced by HUMAN putrefaction.
Cadaverine traces may have been left by a dead body, or a part of a dead body, or materials and objects that have come into contact with a dead body. The dog alerts to the faintest traces, sometimes in locations where - as subsequent criminal confessions reveal - a dead body was merely laid for an hour or less some months or even years previously.
In Jersey, he alerted in a few specific locations. Subsequent excavation of these areas turned up one piece of coconut shell and a great many bone fragments, the vast majority of which proved to be animal. Had they ALL done so, those seeking to undermine the dogs might at least have had something to work with. But unfortunately for them, three of those fragments were from humans.
Eddie the sniffer dog - the animal that had supposedly found the 'scent of death' in the Portuguese flat where Madeleine McCann disappeared - no longer had a licence for UK police forensic work when Harper started using him in Jersey. Eddie, whose owner, Martin Grime, was paid £93,600 for less than five months' work, triggered the first excavations by barking at a spot where Harper's team then unearthed what was claimed to be part of a child's skull. In fact, as a Kew Gardens expert has now confirmed, it was a piece of coconut shell. [\QUOTE]
Your point is what ? The dog did not find a coconut shell. That was found by humans. The dog alerted to the smell of a cadaver. That doesn't mean the cadaver is still there, simply that it was there.
Oh no this tread has descended into the usual two sides:
1. People who like to think the McCanns are innocent and that Maddie is still alive
2. People who like to believe the evidence of dogs and the Portuguese police.
I predict this thread will soon be closed as no one is discussing the program anymore.
The programme featured the dogs but misrepresented them as simply finding DNA. There's your link. As long as no-one is throwing abuse around & we are discussing the facts of the case I really don't see the problem.
Your point is what ? The dog did not find a coconut shell. That was found by humans. The dog alerted to the smell of a cadaver. That doesn't mean the cadaver is still there, simply that it was there.
My point is, pretty much, that threads like this get full of myths from people, like yourself, who worship at the altar of these infallible dogs. You said before that they had never ever been wrong, except supposedly in the McCann case.
Now, you're saying that in the one other high-profile case they've had, which turned into a complete shambles, they weren't wrong, but it's just that the police haven't looked hard enough for the body or it's no longer there. i.e There can't possibly be any false positives.
Comments
You're info is from where ? These two dogs have been used in over 200 cases. When they have found evidence of cadaver/blood scent the investigation has led to conviction or recovery of a body. These are highly trained dogs not the sniffer dogs used in the immediate days following Madeleines' disappearance.
'What we should understand with this dog (Eddie) is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that.' - Martin Grime (Eddie & Keela's Trainer
Results in flat 5A (Where the family were staying)
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment
- cadaver odour dog:
* in the couple's bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe
- cadaver odour dog:
* in a flowerbed, the dog handler commented on the lightness of the scent detected
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog)
Vista Mar Villa, Rua das Flores, in which the McCanns lived from 02 July - 09 September 2007
- cadaver odour dog:
* on the soft toy, possibly belonging to MADELEINE (cadaver odour was detected when the soft toy was inside the residence – at the date occupied by the family)
- cadaver odour dog:
* on two pieces of clothing belonging to KATE HEALY
- cadaver odour dog:
* on a piece of clothing of the minor MADELEINE
The McCanns rental car (rented 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared)
- cadaver odour dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the key of the vehicle
- blood dog:
* signalled the interior of the vehicle's boot
- cadaver odour dog:
* base of the driver's door
No scents were detected in any of the other 4 properties or belongings inside them or the 9 other cars also checked.
There is no theory in this post. Just facts.
What is interesting is reading news stories about these dogs prior to their involvement in this case. It was all about how amazing they were, how accurate they were, how well trained they were, how invaluable they are. Check them out - in the Sun, Sky news & the Times back in Dec 2005.
http://news.sky.com/home/article/13487178
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article193405.ece
can't copy link to the Times story as you have to pay but as a treat -
On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable Timesonline
By Karen McVeigh
December 30, 2005
HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing.
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable.
Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses.
Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963.
Keela's considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.
She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife.
PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."
The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed.
When faced with a "clean" crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela's other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
"We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood," Mr Ellis said. "It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle."
While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose.
Mr Ellis said Keela's "perfect temperament" and enthusiasm made her a great asset. "We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it's quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable."
Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: "Keela's training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often."
Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela's remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. "The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit," Mr Ellis said.
Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela's abilities. "I've been working in this business for 25 years and I've never heard anything like it," he said.
Moneysavinexpert.com is the same.
Both sides are entrenched in their views and nothing is going to change that. I have my views, I will not watch the programme.
I don't think I mentioned 'neglect' at all. My point was that just because as a consequence of a decision you make something awful happens it does not absolve you of the fact you made a bad decision.
However, I don't really think it's over cautious to say that 3 children (all under 4, and 2 under 2 - one with a star chart for staying in bed all night) should not be left unsupervised for varying periods of time, but seemingly between 20-30 mins, in an unsecured, unfamiliar buidling out of sight and earshot.
It's not really a stretch to realise that doing that runs a significant risk of 'something' happening. For 3 (or more?) nights they were lucky and nothing (or nothing big did, allowing for the crying) but on the last night something most certainly did.
Whatever happened to Madeliene is due in part to decisions they made - and I imagine whatever the public image says in private they are more than aware of that. Yes, it's harsh and it must be nigh on impossible to live with but absolving because it's hard and impossible doesn't really help, either.
Yes and a shame the BBC reporters didnt use the programme to show facts and the proof of these facts .It was a p!ss poor programme that said a whole pile of nothing .,
They got a free ride because they are a nice, cosy, middle class family who have good connections and good PR.
If they were a pair of unemployed parents living on a council estate who popped down the local offie for a carry out of Stella and 20 Bensons they would not have received the same, favourable, fawning press.
Their appearance at Levenson sickened me to the stomach.
Excellent post. shame the press/media(UK I may add) dont report things like this about those brilliant dogs now;)
... and the other two children would have been taken into care
I believe there was also some excitement when the dogs detected cadavers in the church until the priest pointed out they frequently had funerals there !
If true it shows they were right then...
Reviewing the timeline I can see no mention of the dogs checking the church...where is this info from ? Or is it just a joke ? If so not cool as people will take it is a fact & the muddied waters surrounding this case will just get murkier.
Where was that reported please ?
Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth.
They didn't really look at the parents at all for 3 or so months.
Mr Murat was the primary focus of the investigation - he was made arguido in a big press storm barely a week or so after the disappearance.
Maybe they have some member of their extended family who is desperate for a child. We cycle a lot when we're abroad and we go all over the place and you can be miles from anywhere up a long, dusty track and there's a little smallholding. I reckon it would be entirely possible for a child to be raised somewhere very remote with nobody knowing. Some people don't mix and only go out when they really have to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-17337414
ETA: Yes...
What statistics do say is that unattended toddlers fall over and suffer fatal head injuries. It's a tragedy that happens many times a year in Britain alone. Preventable tragedies like this are the reason it's illegal to leave children of Madeleine's age alone. Not because they might be abducted.
Apartment 5A: The McCanns (28 April - 03 May 2007)
Ocean Club apartment: The McCanns (04 May - 01 July 2007)
Vista Mar Villa: The McCanns (02 July - 09 September 2007)
Apartment 5B: Matthew and Rachael Oldfield
Apartment 5D: Russell O'Brien/Jane Tanner
Apartment 5H: David Payne/Fiona Payne/Dianne Webster
Praia da Luz: The beach area indicated by Danie Krugel, using an iron tool, created by Mark Harrison, that punctures the soil to allow smells to exit.
Praia da Luz: Buildings, abandoned/in construction, ruins, waterways, entrances to sewers, beach, vegetation around the village, including the volcanic rock "Rocha Negra".
Casa Liliana - Robert Murats property
Vehicle 1: Blue Opel Corsa*- hire car (James Gorrod)
Vehicle 2: Fiat Punto (Ralph Eveleigh – Murat's uncle)
Vehicle 3: Peugot 205 (Robert Murat)
Vehicle 4: Renault Scenic - hire car (The McCanns)
Vehicle 5: Skoda Fabia (Michaela Walczuch)
Vehicle 6: Volkswagen Transporter (Jenny Murat)
Vehicle 7: Nissan Patrol (Luís António)
Vehicle 8: Volkswagen Passat (Luís António)
Vehicle 9: Audi A4 (Segei Malinka)
Vehicle 10: Renault Kangoo (Luís António)
I can find no mention of the church search so I would say it is a myth/joke.
1. People who like to think the McCanns are innocent and that Maddie is still alive
2. People who like to believe the evidence of dogs and the Portuguese police.
I predict this thread will soon be closed as no one is discussing the program anymore.
Eddie's job is to detect cadaverine, a substance uniquely associated with human decomposition. To reiterate, the dog does not alert to bones. Nor, to be clear, does he alert to ANYTHING that is not specifically human. He isn't expected to find or distinguish between fresh corpses or old skeletons. He simply alerts to traces of HUMAN cadaverine, a molecule produced by HUMAN putrefaction.
Cadaverine traces may have been left by a dead body, or a part of a dead body, or materials and objects that have come into contact with a dead body. The dog alerts to the faintest traces, sometimes in locations where - as subsequent criminal confessions reveal - a dead body was merely laid for an hour or less some months or even years previously.
In Jersey, he alerted in a few specific locations. Subsequent excavation of these areas turned up one piece of coconut shell and a great many bone fragments, the vast majority of which proved to be animal. Had they ALL done so, those seeking to undermine the dogs might at least have had something to work with. But unfortunately for them, three of those fragments were from humans.
The programme featured the dogs but misrepresented them as simply finding DNA. There's your link. As long as no-one is throwing abuse around & we are discussing the facts of the case I really don't see the problem.
My point is, pretty much, that threads like this get full of myths from people, like yourself, who worship at the altar of these infallible dogs. You said before that they had never ever been wrong, except supposedly in the McCann case.
Now, you're saying that in the one other high-profile case they've had, which turned into a complete shambles, they weren't wrong, but it's just that the police haven't looked hard enough for the body or it's no longer there. i.e There can't possibly be any false positives.
It would be laughable, if it wasn't so tragic....